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DeathReaper wrote:We clearly read that differently, and that is okay.

Clearly. However, you still haven't answered the question that has been asked several times now as to what the rules mean when they state that the unit mishaps if any models would wind up on impassable terrain, other models, etc when your interpretation of the rules means that this will never actually happen.

When your interpretation goes against the majority concensus and renders a portion of the rules completely meaningless, surely it's time to stop and reassess whether maybe, just maybe, you're reading it wrong?

It does not render a portion of the rules completely meaningless.

"what the rules mean when they state that the unit mishaps if any models would wind up on impassable terrain, other models, etc"

they mean if there is nowhere to place all the models in the unit.

If they happen to scatter into a place where they are completely surrounded by friendly or enemy models and all of the models can not be placed, then you mishap.

That's how It reads, with the inclusion of "As many as will fit"

If you can only fit 3 models around the first model, then 3 models is as many as will fit. seems pretty simple to me.

The fact remains that the circle will either:

"Be as complete as possible with as many as will fit"

Or

"Never be complete because you can not have a complete circle, since there is only room for 5 models and when you place 5 models around 1 model it is not a complete circle."

DeathReaper wrote:
"Never be complete because you can not have a complete circle, since there is only room for 5 models and when you place 5 models around 1 model it is not a complete circle."

I don't know why you continue to say that you can only place five models around the first model. I'm 99% sure that the six models I placed around the center model is not some form of wizardry. Go ahead and try it out. Take one model, then put six models around it. On 25mm bases.

If you can place the six models, you have a complete circle with no gaps.

Blacksails wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
"Never be complete because you can not have a complete circle, since there is only room for 5 models and when you place 5 models around 1 model it is not a complete circle."

I don't know why you continue to say that you can only place five models around the first model. I'm 99% sure that the six models I placed around the center model is not some form of wizardry. Go ahead and try it out. Take one model, then put six models around it. On 25mm bases.

If you can place the six models, you have a complete circle with no gaps.

I have, you can not get the 6th model to fit in the space, notice how the other bases move when you try to jam it in there.

The space is not quite big enough.

DeathReaper wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
"Never be complete because you can not have a complete circle, since there is only room for 5 models and when you place 5 models around 1 model it is not a complete circle."

I don't know why you continue to say that you can only place five models around the first model. I'm 99% sure that the six models I placed around the center model is not some form of wizardry. Go ahead and try it out. Take one model, then put six models around it. On 25mm bases.

If you can place the six models, you have a complete circle with no gaps.

I have, you can not get the 6th model to fit in the space, notice how the other bases move when you try to jam it in there.

The space is not quite big enough.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same bases, but I can quite easily get six around another model, all touching with no gaps. Perfect fit. Yakface has a good picture of what it looks like in his poll thread about this topic. You should be able to fit six around a model in a perfect circle.

we are talking about the 25mm bases, the ones for infantry. (Regular infantry, not terminators or beasts or anything like that, the base you would find a Space Marine standing on.)

Vassal is not a good representation, since its a computer drawing and does not precisely represent the size of the bases in real life.

Try this: Take one base and use some sticky tack to hold it into place on a smooth flat surface.

Arrange 5 bases around the first base, again holding them down with sticky tack so they do not move.

Notice how, when you try to slide the 6th base in, it does not actually touch the original model without moving the other bases.

there is a gap between the 6th model and the original model, so it can not be placed there as it "Will not fit"

Now try it without moving any of the 5 surrounding models.

DeathReaper wrote:Now try it without moving any of the 5 surrounding models.

Try what? I showed to you I could make a circle around the center model with six models as opposed to your claim of five. Any further models needed to be placed would be done in another circle around that. I don't see that there is anything left to prove.

Try fitting 6 around the 1st without moving any of the models you have already placed.

Every time I try to fit 6, I can not.

There is a small gap between the 6th base that tries to fit in the circle, and the 1st model placed.

If i force the last model in there I can get it to touch, but I can not get it to fit without moving the models I have already placed.

DeathReaper wrote:Try fitting 6 around the 1st without moving any of the models you have already placed.

Every time I try to fit 6, I can not.

There is a small gap between the 6th base that tries to fit in the circle, and the 1st model placed.

If i force the last model in there I can get it to touch, but I can not get it to fit without moving the models I have already placed.

Then how do you explain how I demonstrated my ability to place six models around the first? Surely, there must be a way to do it, otherwise that photo would not exist. Besides, its irrelevant how the models are placed or in what order so long as the first circle is complete and all the bases touch the center model. I have proven this to be possible.

"as many as will fit" in a circle around the model, not "as many will CURRENTLY fit" around the model.

Youre arguing the equivalent of Plaguebearers not being able to take FNP. How many bases will fit around in the first circle? 6. If youre only able to fit 5, because of terrain etc, then you have not put as many models as will fit, and you trigger the mishap.

one of those in the photo are not touching the center base.

It is just not physically possible. one of the bases is a little bit away from the center base. Move that to touch and one of the others is not touching, its a vicious cycle.

Unless you have bases that are shaved down or something (Not claiming that you do)

As many as will fit is 5, if you are in the open. This forms a C around the first model, and not a circle.

and as many as will fit, varies on where the original is, it is not always a static number.

Errr...I'm beyond certain that all of them are touching the center model. The photo may not be perfect, but it certainly shows they're all touching.

I cannot be the only person capable of performing this seemingly impossible task. If you're going to argue that one of the bases in the photo isn't touching the center model, then we must have different definitions of touching.

Anyways, I'm done here. I'm sure most people will find that placing six models around the center model to be quite possible.

DR - you're inserting extra words there. It is not "how many will CURRENTLY fit", but "how many will fit"

How many will fit is a static number, based on the base sizes

Blacksails, I will get a pic and show you exactly what I mean.

Pic Forthcoming.

DeathReaper wrote:Blacksails, I will get a pic and show you exactly what I mean.

Pic Forthcoming.

You do know that six circles of equal size will fit around a single circle of equal size correct?

That's pretty basic geometry (do some google searches on the subject and you'll see).

yakface wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Blacksails, I will get a pic and show you exactly what I mean.

Pic Forthcoming.

You do know that six circles of equal size will fit around a single circle of equal size correct?

That's pretty basic geometry (do some google searches on the subject and you'll see).

Yup. That's a pretty fundamental rule in geometry. I think that's something that has been known for centuries.

It's possible that the reason you feel that other bases are moving is the fact that the surrounding circles will only contact each other circle at a single point, so there is very little leeway. Just as an exercise, I just did it wih seven pennies, and it only took a couple of seconds to get it right. If they were magnetized or something so they didn't shift around so easily, it would be a simpler exercise.

{Nevermind, I deleted a geometric proof that I rememberd incorrectly. I'll try to find the correct proof and post a link.}

If your bases aren't managing to do this, I would guess that they might be heat-warped.

Blacksails wrote:Errr...I'm beyond certain that all of them are touching the center model. The photo may not be perfect, but it certainly shows they're all touching.

I cannot be the only person capable of performing this seemingly impossible task. If you're going to argue that one of the bases in the photo isn't touching the center model, then we must have different definitions of touching.

Anyways, I'm done here. I'm sure most people will find that placing six models around the center model to be quite possible.

He isn't performing any sort of magic trick here. It is not only possible to do this but it occurs on a regular basis with the people who play the rule the correct way.

You also keep saying you can't get it to fit without moving one of the adjacent models which is immaterial to the argument. As long as the center model doesn't move and you complete the circle you may place the models in any order and with any jockeying for position you wish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yakface wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Blacksails, I will get a pic and show you exactly what I mean.

Pic Forthcoming.

You do know that six circles of equal size will fit around a single circle of equal size correct?

That's pretty basic geometry (do some google searches on the subject and you'll see).

Edit: QFT

Do the math on this one, each base has approximately 26 mm of space allotted to it on a circumscribed circle. Now measure the bottom of a 40k base, there is plenty of room.

Maybe you need to keep adjusting the models because your initial placement is bad.

yakface wrote:You do know that six circles of equal size will fit around a single circle of equal size correct?

That's pretty basic geometry (do some google searches on the subject and you'll see).

Then my bases must be messed up somehow, because I can not quite fit the 6th one around the initial model when I try it.

OverwatchCNC wrote:You also keep saying you can't get it to fit without moving one of the adjacent models which is immaterial to the argument.

No its not, because every time I try to get that 6th one to touch, it moves a different base out of contact.

Your bases must not be circular

For one explanation of why you must have odd shaped bases, see http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/10648/why-is-a-circle-in-a-plane-surrounded-by-6-other-circles

@Nos: That, or he doesn't have bases that are all the same size. Maybe some are from different production lots and have a small variance in size?

No disrespect meant by this, but isn't the "arc" interpretation more than a little cheesy? It gives quite a large advantage through a very vague interpretation of the rules, typically it seems to be the most sportsman like to take the least advantageous interpretation when there's confusion.

The concept of Deep Strike is that the group of models drop in, materialize from the Warp, teleport or enter by some other means. The initial model is placed as a placeholder for the center of the unit because rolling for scatter with one model is easier than a whole unit. Once the center's location has been finalized the rules attempt to describe how to spread models out evenly in all directions to determine if the unit as a whole has landed in a location which would cause a mishap.

The spirit of the rules is that the entire unit drops in a big blob along with the initial placeholder model then scatter together, but it's just not feasible to move that many models at once in formation. You don't know what terrain you'll actually be landing in and therefore have no control over your unit's formation.

By allowing players to place the remaining units in a way such that they avoid mishaps you're creating a paradox in which the unit has the ability to change their formation to avoid obstacles, but magically aren't able to do so when landing in open land, not to mention that if units can contol where they land then scatter as a whole makes no sense.

Based on this, not using complete circles seems like a strategy designed to ignore any common sense and play for advantage by avoiding mishaps. If both players are willing to agree to it then that's their business, but I'd be making quite a fuss if someone tried it on me, particularly in a competitive setting.