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i agree with the above post you are reading it out of context if what you say is the case you could place a line of models and not mishap because you can only fit 1 in a circle

it is just a really stupid way to read the rules and i am not sure how you see it the way you do

Where is the requirement that the 2nd-Nth circles must be complete?

Is there really that hard of a time understanding this line " should include as many models as will fit"

If you can fit 8 in your second circle, but an enemy model is in the way you will mishap.

No, if there's an enemy model in the second circle, I can't fit 8 models.

so you're saying if due to Enemy models or impassable terrain, etc you can consider one model in a circle, a circle?

Should and Can't are two things entirely

So what happens if you can't complete a circle for another reason such as deep striking onto a floor of a ruin/ building?

curtis wrote:So what happens if you can't complete a circle for another reason such as deep striking onto a floor of a ruin/ building?

Note, you can not deep strike into buildings.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Should and Can't are two things entirely

Correct. The rule says "should", not "must". And there is no reference to the second or any circles after the first having to be complete.

rigeld2 wrote:Where is the requirement that the 2nd-Nth circles must be complete?

A circle, by definition, is complete. If it is not complete, it is not a circle. Circles are closed figures; if your grouping of models does not create a closed figure, then it cannot be a circle.

It really is as simple as that.

Edit: I'm fighting really hard to avoid violating forum rules and posting the definition of a circle, but it's becoming apparent that many posters here have forgotten their elementary school classes on learning shapes.

So the reference to "a complete circle" is redundant?

You can describe a circle using very few points.

rigeld2 wrote:So the reference to "a complete circle" is redundant?

You can describe a circle using very few points.

Yes, a "complete circle" is redundant.

If you describe a circle from any "viewpoint" that leaves said "circle" as an open figure, it is not a circle.

There really isn't any debate on what a circle is. "Circle" as a geometric figure has a specific meaning that doesn't have leeway for interpretation.

If you only have a few points that are being used to "define" the circle using geometry, there is no guarantee that the figure will, in fact, be a circle. It could be a parabola, for example, or any other function that plots out a curved line on a plane. If you do not "complete" the circle, there is no guarantee that the models placed are actually creating a circle.

Unless you're contending that the deepstriking models are instead forming a dance circle or a knitting circle....

o='s circle
. =/= circle
) =/= circle

so if you deepstrike 10+ IC

So the IC is in the middle, than 6 will fit around him IIRC, than the other 4 must be on the outside in any fashion which is fine as you only had 4 to fit

The issue comes when you try to deepstrike larger based models or very large squads.

However if you have the models you need to fill in each circle.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:so if you deepstrike 10+ IC

So the IC is in the middle, than 6 will fit around him IIRC, than the other 4 must be on the outside in any fashion which is fine as you only had 4 to fit.

Saldiven wrote:

Saldiven wrote:If you describe a circle from any "viewpoint" that leaves said "circle" as an open figure, it is not a circle.

A circle, by definition, is complete. If it is not complete, it is not a circle. Circles are closed figures; if your grouping of models does not create a closed figure, then it cannot be a circle.

You can never have a circle with the infantry models that are on the 25mm bases.

you have your center model, and then you can only fit 5 models around it, there is almost room for a 6th, but not quite.

Point being you will never have a complete circle.

That is as many as can fit, and thus describes the complete circle.

Your reading requires one rule to have no meaning.

nosferatu1001 wrote:That is as many as can fit, and thus describes the complete circle.

Your reading requires one rule to have no meaning.

The underlined is EXACTLY what I was saying in my earlier posts.

DeathReaper wrote:You can never have a circle with the infantry models that are on the 25mm bases.

you have your center model, and then you can only fit 5 models around it, there is almost room for a 6th, but not quite.

Point being you will never have a complete circle.

Okay, using that as an example, a complete circle is 5 miniatures as 6 will not fit around the IC; this will be less for miniatures on 40mm bases.

so 5 25mm based miniatures = second circle for squads that consist of 6+ models (around the first miniature in the center)

2-4 25mm based miniatures = circle as far as the rules are concerned

So if you have a unit of 6+ miniatures, first one is where you want the squad to be, remaining 5 must circle the first as best as possible.

However! If there is impassable terrain, board edge or enemy unit located in such a way that even one of the five cannot be placed in base to base with the first then you have mishapped as you have no been able to place "as many as possible" which as you yourself have mentioned is five.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:That is as many as can fit, and thus describes the complete circle.

Your reading requires one rule to have no meaning.

The underlined is EXACTLY what I was saying in my earlier posts.

No, in your earlier posts you are arguing the "as many as will fit" clause is there to allow you to avoid DS mishaps. What he is saying outlines how the clause is supposed to be read and used in relation to deploying a DS unit.

I really don't see how this is being argued. A circle is not an arc, the only way you can have an arc and not a circle is if your model cannot fit due to models from the same unit keeping it from fitting. Is that spelled out explicitly no, but as Yakface pointed out already that is how it works. The "as many models as can fit" is not there to keep you from mishaping it is there to tell you how to deploy a DS unit. It is a willful misreading of the rules to state otherwise.

You spin me right round baby right round like a record baby...

Guys, its in the FAQ. Strait on. They give an example. Using terminators. Dark Reaper is correct, as long as the first model is placeable

I need a quote before I buy that one.

Config2 wrote:Guys, its in the FAQ. Strait on. They give an example. Using terminators. Dark Reaper is correct, as long as the first model is placeable

Please quote which FAQ and page for reference, or stop blowing smoke.

Config2 wrote:Guys, its in the FAQ. Strait on. They give an example. Using terminators. Dark Reaper is correct, as long as the first model is placeable

What are you referring to? There is no such FAQ in the rulebook FAQ nor in the SM FAQ, so I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

In fact, let's take a look at one Deep Strike ruling actually in the rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit arriving by Deep Strike cannot be placed fully on the table, must it roll on the Deep Strike Mishap Table?
A: Yes.


With the incorrect interpretation you're pushing it is nearly impossible for this scenario to occur (part of a Deep Striking unit ending up off the table).

Moreover, how do you continue to ignore this portion of the Deep Strike rules (p95):

"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table..."

rigeld2 wrote:No, if there's an enemy model in the second circle, I can't fit 8 models.

As I demonstrated in my previous post, there are NO RULES which allow you to change the deployment of a Deep Striking unit based on the presence of enemy models, impassable terrain, edge of the table, etc. The ONLY such rules are in the Deep Strike mishap section and they say that if that happens (the models would be deployed in those situations) then the unit mishaps.

So as soon as you can find the rule that allows you to change the deployment method described because of the presence of enemy models, edge of the table, etc, then you would be right. However those rules don't exist and therefore you have to deploy your Deep Striking unit precisely as described in the Deep Strike rules.

OverwatchCNC wrote:... A circle is not an arc...

Neither is a C

Which is what you currently have with having 5 models around 1 model.

Yakface has it dead on.

Here we go:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/399849.page


Its a poll to see just what kind of split plays this issue one way or the other.

DeathReaper wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:... A circle is not an arc...

Neither is a C

Which is what you currently have with having 5 models around 1 model.

Correct, but those five models will have properly fulfilled the rules for deepstrike deployment; whereas 10 models deployed the way you suggest would be breaking the rules since there is no permission given in the rules for deepstrike deployment to ignore models, board edge, or impassable terrain.

40k=permissive rule set. Permission is not expressly given to ignore intervening models, the board edge, or impassable terrain; therefore your attempt at rules lawyering better deep strike rules has met with failure. Show me the rule allowing you to ignore enemy models, impassable terrain, and the board edge while deploying a deepstriking unit and I will admit you are correct, but no such permission is given.

Except for the clause that each circle must contain as many models as will fit. That is your allowance, If you read my earlier posts you would have known that.

DeathReaper wrote:Except for the clause that each circle must contain as many models as will fit. That is your allowance, If you read my earlier posts you would have known that.

I read the earlier posts. You conveniently ignore "when the first circle is complete". Unless you don't have sufficient models to complete the circle the circle must be completed before moving on to the next circle. RAW.

No, it is complete when you "include as many models as will fit."

and with regular 25mm bases you will never have a complete circle, it will always be a C and not a complete circle.

But as I said before:

We clearly read that differently, and that is okay.

The rules are a bit ambiguous.

Moving on now. Thank you all for the discussion.

-DR

DeathReaper wrote:No, it is complete when you "include as many models as will fit."

No...that is not actually true.

It is only complete when it is complete, yet you are given an allowance to stop adding models that do not fit. Those are not the same thing.
Saying they are the same allowance is part of your error.

Eding to add:
There are specific instance of not allowing models to be placed that cause a mishap.
Not being able to fit models because of those is cause for mishap, not for ignoring DS rules.