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rigeld2 wrote:

yakface wrote:If you really think every single person in this thread disagreeing with you are seeing something magical in the rules that you're not, I suggest you try making a poll thread where you post the rules and describe the situation and ask what people think the rules say in this case (mishap or no mishap). I think you will find an overwhelming majority of people disagree with you to the point where your interpretation borders on ridiculousness.

While I respect you yakface, I have to disagree with this post. As I said earlier, I read the rules the same way as DR and I'm still not convinced it's an incorrect reading. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

OK, here's an excellent example of what you are describing. I DS into a tight canyon (giggity). I hit, but the canyon is 1 model wide:

| 5 |
| 3 |
| 1 |
| 2 |
| 4 |

Since I can draw circles around 1, and just can't put people in base to base contact on the left or the right, I'm OK to DS in this straight line? The rule specifically makes you tighten into circles (honestly, a spiral of sorts), but I've flattened out my deployment completely using terrain.

Just my two cents, but no way is this RAW or RAI.

Pedrowan wrote:Since I can draw circles around 1, and just can't put people in base to base contact on the left or the right, I'm OK to DS in this straight line? The rule specifically makes you tighten into circles (honestly, a spiral of sorts), but I've flattened out my deployment completely using terrain.

Just my two cents, but no way is this RAW or RAI.

That's how I read it, partially because reading it any other way means that large units of Gargoyles (can you tell I started 40k with Tyranids?) would be screwed when trying to DS.

rigeld2 wrote:

Pedrowan wrote:Since I can draw circles around 1, and just can't put people in base to base contact on the left or the right, I'm OK to DS in this straight line? The rule specifically makes you tighten into circles (honestly, a spiral of sorts), but I've flattened out my deployment completely using terrain.

Just my two cents, but no way is this RAW or RAI.

That's how I read it, partially because reading it any other way means that large units of Gargoyles (can you tell I started 40k with Tyranids?) would be screwed when trying to DS.

So?

There are lots of rules that exist in the game that make certain actions by certain units either a bad choice or difficult to pull off. In the case of a large unit of gargoyles, this rule merely means you have to be more careful and select a nice, wide-open area to target for your deepstrike. The unit isn't "screwed," it's options as far as where to choose to deepstrike are merely more limited.

DeathReaper wrote:First off, it is not a quote.

Second, why do you think its "spiteful (and misguided)"?

So you would prefer I wrote

"DeathReaper has
"P.S. please learn what area means.
Hint: for a circle it is: Pi * R²"
in his signature?"

Really? Or was that a joke I missed?

You have it there (unless the timing is just insane) because of a debate that is basically the same as this one, you pointing out what a circle is and missing the actual reason it is used.

Oddly, it is exceptional in this case because your position has basically reversed.

Editing to add:
In that case my position was ruled against, and I acknowledge it entirely; however you are basically claiming that it somehow works differently in this one case.

Saldiven wrote:There are lots of rules that exist in the game that make certain actions by certain units either a bad choice or difficult to pull off. In the case of a large unit of gargoyles, this rule merely means you have to be more careful and select a nice, wide-open area to target for your deepstrike. The unit isn't "screwed," it's options as far as where to choose to deepstrike are merely more limited.

I'm not saying that my reading was correct. I'm saying that I read "Jump Infantry can deep strike" and thought "Oh cool, gargoyles are JI - lemme see what that means" and went to read DS.
Dropping 30 gargs into a crowded backfield doesn't make much sense if it's that easy to mishap. It's like taking Toxin Sacs on a Carnifex - yes, it's possible, but some people might laugh at you and say it's a bad idea.

rigeld2 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:There are lots of rules that exist in the game that make certain actions by certain units either a bad choice or difficult to pull off. In the case of a large unit of gargoyles, this rule merely means you have to be more careful and select a nice, wide-open area to target for your deepstrike. The unit isn't "screwed," it's options as far as where to choose to deepstrike are merely more limited.

I'm not saying that my reading was correct. I'm saying that I read "Jump Infantry can deep strike" and thought "Oh cool, gargoyles are JI - lemme see what that means" and went to read DS.
Dropping 30 gargs into a crowded backfield doesn't make much sense if it's that easy to mishap. It's like taking Toxin Sacs on a Carnifex - yes, it's possible, but some people might laugh at you and say it's a bad idea.

Darn why'd they make it so easy to mishap than? Possibly they gave them wings so they could move faster than standard infantry, or take the option to mishap when you try and DS a ton of them. Just a hidden LOL from C:Nid

rigeld2 wrote:Dropping 30 gargs into a crowded backfield doesn't make much sense if it's that easy to mishap. It's like taking Toxin Sacs on a Carnifex - yes, it's possible, but some people might laugh at you and say it's a bad idea.

That is the same reason I don't try to DS a full mob of Stormboyz into someones backfield. To me it doesn't make sense that a unit with 3 attacks base should be able to DS right into someone with little to no risk of a mishap. Looking at it from another way if you can get around a mishap if only the center model is counted then is there really a need for teleport homers and other fancy pieces of wargear designed to allow you to place the unit without scattering?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Looking at it from another way if you can get around a mishap if only the center model is counted then is there really a need for teleport homers and other fancy pieces of wargear designed to allow you to place the unit without scattering?

Yes, because scattering onto another unit, off the table, onto impassible terrain still mishaps...

You mishap if the model you put on the table scatters onto impassible terrain, enemy units, friendly units, or off the table. This is when you mishap. If you roll your scatter and that model on the table does not mishap, then the whole unit does not mishap. All this circle nonsense. For what it's worth I think Death Reaper's original point, that you put as many models in the circle as possible then move on, is correct.

Incorrect gpfunk, for all the actual rules put into the thread that contradict DRs reading

Sorry but please reference me a page number in the BRB that states an arc is defined the same as a circle. What is nonsense is attempting to use a rule that does not exist.

O <--------This is a cirlce (actually an "oh" but whatever)

) or ( would be an arc which is what you are saying you can use if there are enemy models/impassible terrain in the way. Attempting that is not abiding by the rules for forming a complete circle around the center model before starting another one.

gpfunk wrote:You mishap if the model you put on the table scatters onto impassible terrain, enemy units, friendly units, or off the table. This is when you mishap. If you roll your scatter and that model on the table does not mishap, then the whole unit does not mishap. All this circle nonsense. For what it's worth I think Death Reaper's original point, that you put as many models in the circle as possible then move on, is correct.

You're referring to the "circle nonsense" that appears in the rules for placing models via deepstrike?

DR's descrptions do not involve circles, they involve arcs. The two are not the same.

(Edited for typo.)

Jumping in here. In the rules it says that you must place the models in a circle around the center model. right got that. Show me a page number that says you must form a complete circle around the center model before you may begin on the second circle.

cassiaus wrote: Show me a page number that says you must form a complete circle around the center model before you may begin on the second circle.

Er... it's right there in the same section that tells you to form a circle. So page 95.

This argument is very... cyclical

Adding my 2 penneth - I have always played it by DR's interpretation, and it never even crossed my mind this was wrong.

cassiaus wrote:Jumping in here. In the rules it says that you must place the models in a circle around the center model. right got that. Show me a page number that says you must form a complete circle around the center model before you may begin on the second circle.

Um...a circle is, by definition, complete. A circle is defined as a closed figure. If your "circle" isn't complete, it's not a circle.

An incomplete portion of a circle is defined as an arc.

Page 95 instructs you to make circles, not arcs.

Sorry, I got a "C" in Geometry. I do not recognize this "Arc".

Anyway. I think, by RAW, the majority opinion is right.

That being said, We've played by DR's version the whole time, and I never considered being wrong either. After reading all this, I think we'll still play by DR's version just because...I dunno. I like it more. And it's what we do anyway.

BTW everyone - The game is way more enjoyable when you don't take it so seriously. I know "You make Da Call" is for RAW discussions only but the insults are kind of over the line. Let's calm down a bit.

Better yet show me a page number that says the circle doesn't have to be complete before you start on the second one.

TheRedArmy wrote:Sorry, I got a "C" in Geometry. I do not recognize this "Arc".

Anyway. I think, by RAW, the majority opinion is right.

That being said, We've played by DR's version the whole time, and I never considered being wrong either. After reading all this, I think we'll still play by DR's version just because...I dunno. I like it more. And it's what we do anyway.

BTW everyone - The game is way more enjoyable when you don't take it so seriously. I know "You make Da Call" is for RAW discussions only but the insults are kind of over the line. Let's calm down a bit.

Its not like the majority opinion is 'taking the rules seriously' and the interpretation you're backing is 'taking the rules less seriously'. You're talking about fundamentally changing the potency of Deep Striking units and their ability to land in congested situations.

The fact, is the vast, vast majority of people read the rules that don't allow you to deploy further circles if you can't complete the fist one. So to play the other way means that you're giving Deep Striking units a huge boot in reliability, something that is not what the designers intended, nor wrote, according to most people who read the same rules you are.


So let's look at the rules again. First you have the rules for how to deploy the unit from deep strike (emphasis mine):

"Once [the first mode's position is determined], the unit's remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in bast contact with the original model in a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further circle should be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle should include as many models as will fit."


These rules explain how the unit must be deployed. Absolutely no mention is made about impassable terrain, enemy units, etc. There is literally no provision given here to NOT place models in the circles as specifically defined in that rule. Regardless of whether you're putting models in impassable terrain, on friendly/enemy models, etc, per the rules given here you HAVE to place the models specifically as described.

Again, remember that the rules are permissive...you cannot do something that the rules don't say that you are allowed to do, and the rules very clearly state that you don't start a further circle until the first circle is complete.


Now if we read on further into the rules we get into the part about mishaps (emphasis mine):

"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong."


This is very important. As I have pointed out previously, there are no rules outside of what I just posted saying that Deep Striking models aren't allowed to deploy within 1" of enemy models, on friendly models, in impassable terrain, etc. It is *ONLY* the passage I just posted that covers such situations and it says absolutely nothing about being able to change the deployment pattern of Deep Striking because of the presence of enemy models, impassable terrain, etc.

The only thing it says is that if any Deep Striking model in the uint WOULD not be able to be deployed for the listed reasons then the unit will mishap.

Again, this rule is in regards to how the unit *WOULD* deploy. So you use the rules for Deep Strike deployment to determine how the unit would deploy and then if any of the models in the unit WOULD end up being in one of those illegal positions, then the unit suffers a mishap.

There is absolutely no rules stating that you are able to change the Deep Strike formation of concentric circles because of the presence of impassable terrain, enemy/friendly models, the edge of the table, etc.


So the rules are quite clear (at least to a vast majority) and yes, they make Deep Striking a 30 man squad of Gargoyles into a congested position risky and that is their whole point! They are intended to create a very real risk/reward scenario when Deep Striking units into tight spots and the bigger the unit and the tighter the spot the more risky the move.

By ignoring the rules and playing it the way you want, you dramatically alter this risk/reward balance and make Deep Striking much more reliable (and therefore powerful) then it is supposed to be.

It sayson the same page "...as many as will fit..." if something blocks a portion of the circle, that's as many as will fit by the rules. That gives permission to start the next circle. Laster it say if any model cannot be placed due to impassible terrain, etc the unit mishaps. Not if any model cannot complete the circle.

I read it like DR, however I can see where the dispute lies.

It says "as many as will fit" and it also says "When the first circle is complete, a further circle should be placed". Under your reading, Yonush, these rules are in conflict and create a situation where you do not know which one takes precedence.

One of the basic principles of rules interpretation is, if two rules seem to be in conflict, to see if there is a way they can be read/interpreted which does NOT require them to be in conflict. In this case, if you take the passage "as many as will fit" to be referring to bigger and smaller base sizes, then there is no conflict.

In addition, your interpretation requires you to ignore the passage where the DS rules tell us "If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model..." because the way you are interpreting it, only the first model matters.

But the models CAN be deployed. Where does it say that if a circle cannot be completed the unit mishaps. It doesn't. You're. Interprting the rules to make that claim.

Yonush wrote:But the models CAN be deployed. Where does it say that if a circle cannot be completed the unit mishaps. It doesn't. You're. Interprting the rules to make that claim.

It doesn't have to. It says to place them in a circle. As many models as can fit in a circle, in a circle.
You are the one stating they don't actually have to be placed in a circle.

Yonush, the way you play it, what does "If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model..." mean during the game?

Wow, I can't believe this has gone on as long as it has.

Those who fall in DR's camp keep focusing on the "as many models as possible" line, but seem to ignore the line that states the circle must be complete and that models in subsequent circles must be placed base to base with models from previous circles.

If a player places models in a new "circle" before bringing a prior circle to completion, they are violating the requirement that the circle must be complete. The requirement for the circle to be complete comes before the addition that as many models as possible must be included.

Both aspects are rules, and neither one overrides the others. You must both have a complete circle and use as many models as possible to do so.

The only requirement for a complete circle is the first one.

rigeld2 wrote:The only requirement for a complete circle is the first one.

umm No its not, "when the first circle is complete, a further circle should be placed with each model touching the circle inside it" pg 95 BGB

"Each circle should include as many models as will fit" 95 BGB

If your not fitting as many as you should into the circle you're simply not following DS rules

so the rules say that the first circle must be complete, and then it says that models should touch the circle inside, and include as many models as will fit. How is that not what I said?

Where is the rule that the 2nd - Nth circle must be complete? The rules do not say that every model in the first circle must be touched by a model in the second circle (which would require a complete second circle) or that the second circle must be complete.

Because if you deepstrike 20 models and should fit as many into the circle as will fit. You will flesh out at least 2-3 circles complete before a partial will be made.