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Uh not nine legions under Chaos' control anymore, guys. 10k years hasn't been kind to most of the legions. They ain't at full strength no more. Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade and some are primarch-less. Or effectively are. Yes, they've gained some chapters too but there's no way their forces are bigger than those of the original Horus Heresy. Attrition. For 10k years. This problem is compounded by the fact that much of their fighting force simply cannot exist outside of the eye for very long. Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.

BrainDeleted wrote:Uh not nine legions under Chaos' control anymore, guys. 10k years hasn't been kind to most of the legions. They ain't at full strength no more. Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade and some are primarch-less. Or effectively are. Yes, they've gained some chapters too but there's no way their forces are bigger than those of the original Horus Heresy. Attrition. For 10k years. This problem is compounded by the fact that much of their fighting force simply cannot exist outside of the eye for very long. Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.

Ruven - "We are all Horus's sons. We all carry his legacy with us. Abaddon is the bane of the Imperium, brother. His name is whispered by a trlion frightened souls. Have you heard the legends? The Imperium even believes him to be Horus's cloned sons. And he bears that legend for a reason. The Imperium will fall. Maybe not this century, and perhaps not the next. But it will fall, and Abaddon will be there, boot on the throat of the Emperor's bloodless corpse. Abaddon will be there the night the Astronomican dies, and the Imperium - at last- falls dark."

Talos - "You still beleive we can win this war? If Horus failed, what chance does his son have?"

Ruven - "Every chance, for no matter what you or I might say, it's a destiny written in the stars themselves. How much larger are the forces of the Eye now, than those that first fled the failed Siege of Terra? How many billions of men, how many countless thousands of ships, have rallied to the Warmaster's banner in ten millennia? Abaddon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded. You know that as well as I. If we could refrain from butchering one another for long enough, we'd already be p*****g on the Imperium's bones."

Talos - "Even the Primarchs failed. Terra burned, but rose again. They failed, brother."

Ruven - "That is why you remain blind to our destiny, Talos. You still idolize them. Why?"

Talos - "They were the best of us."

Ruven - "No. There speaks the voice of worship, and brother, you cannot afford to be so naive. The Primarchs were humanity magnified - all of mankind's greatest attributes, balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat, or another step deeper on the descent to madness. And what are they now? Those that still exist are distant avatars, sworn to the gods they represent, ascended to devote their lives to the Great Game."

Talos - "You are not answering my question, Ruven."

Ruven - "I am, Talos. I am. The Eighth Legion is a weak, unbalanced thing - a broken coalition devoted to its own sadistic pleasure. No higher ambition beyond surviving and slaughtering. That is no secret. I am no longer a Night Lord, but I am still Nostraman. Do you think I enjoyed kneeling before Abaddon? Do you think I relished that the Warmaster rose from another Legion, instead of my own? I loathed Abaddon, yet I respected him, for he will do what no other can. The Gods have marked him, chosen him to remain in the material realm and do what the Primarchs never could."
"You asked why I joined the Despoiler, and the answer is the fate of the Primarchs. They were never intended to be the inheritors of this empire. Their fates were sealed with their births, let alone their ascensions. They are echoes , almost gone from the galaxy, engaged in the Great Game of Chaos far from mortal eyes. The empire belongs to use, for we are still here. We are the warriors that remained behind."

Talos - "You truly believe what you are saying. I can tell."

Ruven - "Everyone believes it, Talos, because it is the truth. I left the Legion because I rejected the aimless the butchery, and the naive, worthless hope of simply surviving this war. Survival wasn't enough for me. I wanted to win."

Blood Reaver, Aron Dembski-Bowden - Page 256-258

And who is that "we"?
Only Black kLegion is known to follow up with Horus path, and even they are in doubt because GHorus failed big time. All others follow their own Primarch teachings or just go and rampage.
If anything Chaos fight itself more than it's fighting others. Black Legion vs. Emperor's Children is the obvious. Khard the Betrayer to World Eathers is liek Chenkov to the Imperial Guard.
Chaos are really losers. Disunited and their souls sold to the Chaos Gods who made them their slaves and pupets. Truly ironic ending for the former Mankind finest.

Yeah I'd would have guessed you'd pretty much ignore everything I typed.

iproxtaco wrote:
I wanted to win.

Condensed it a bit...

BL may show the intend and beliefs of characters, but those could be wrong on this.

" i wanted to win."

Fine, to want and to be able to, aren't the same.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I wanted to win.

Condensed it a bit...

BL may show the intend and beliefs of characters, but those could be wrong on this.

" i wanted to win."

Fine, to want and to be able to, aren't the same.

Of course. I didn't comment on what I extracted but it's ok, you're forgiven. I thought it might give a bit of perspective, on the actual forces of Abaddon, and what the Primarchs are doing, which is nothing, really, and they likely wouldn't return to fight unless given a very good motive. Lorgar maybe, but you'll have to read Dark Creed for more.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I wanted to win.

Condensed it a bit...

BL may show the intend and beliefs of characters, but those could be wrong on this.

" i wanted to win."

Fine, to want and to be able to, aren't the same.

In the end we all are brother...

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah I'd would have guessed you'd pretty much ignore everything I typed.

I feel your pain. It's like talking to a wall with a picture of another wall on it. Please, don't feed the troll, it's not good for your blood pressure.

So your point is that because a CSM is confident they can win, they will win? Because he thinks it's their destiny? Well, I wasn't refuting what the CSM think...And, well, I also don't believe him when he says they're stronger than they were during the heresy. Plenty, plenty, plenty have died and they've gained plenty too but not enough to equal the full force Horus brought against the Imperium. The only advantage they've got is that the Imperium is weaker than it was too.

Just saying, they aren't going to be the ones stomping on the Emperor's corpse. It'll probably be a bunch of factions all at once when it finally happens.

BrainDeleted wrote:So your point is that because a CSM is confident they can win, they will win? Because he thinks it's their destiny? Well, I wasn't refuting what the CSM think...And, well, I also don't believe him when he says they're stronger than they were during the heresy. Plenty, plenty, plenty have died and they've gained plenty too but not enough to equal the full force Horus brought against the Imperium. The only advantage they've got is that the Imperium is weaker than it was too.

Just saying, they aren't going to be the ones stomping on the Emperor's corpse. It'll probably be a bunch of factions all at once when it finally happens.

You're blind then. I've not said Chaos are going to win, in fact, let me quote myself:

iproxtaco wrote: I didn't comment on what I extracted but it's ok, you're forgiven. I thought it might give a bit of perspective, on the actual forces of Abaddon, and what the Primarchs are doing, which is nothing, really, and they likely wouldn't return to fight unless given a very good motive. Lorgar maybe, but you'll have to read Dark Creed for more.

There you go, in case you missed it. I even added some bold just for you.
You can choose not to beleive what it says in the book, but it's there. The forces of Chaos are larger than they were at the Heresy, like it or not. Whether they can win as a result of this remains to be seen, but Abaddon is front runner in the galactic competition to see who can unplug the Golden Throne first.
I'll quote the REALLY important part though, with added bold for even more emphasis:

Ruven, page 256, Soul Hunter, Aron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Abaddon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded. You know that as well as I. If we could refrain from butchering one another for long enough, we'd already be p*****g on the Imperium's bones."

That's right. Out of all that, I probably posted the one line that undermines my apparent argument.

BrainDeleted wrote:Uh not nine legions under Chaos' (Probably unclear writing on my part Obviously they're under Chaos' control. I meant to say Abaddon's) control anymore, guys....Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade....Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.

Just so you know what I've said.

Sounds like he doesn't expressly command them all to me from your bit of chaos slanted fluff. Sounds like it says IF he could, he might be stronger than Horus. A bad 'un doesn't control a force greater than Horus did.

And to be honest, a random quote of fluff that says Chaos will win kind of made you sound like you were saying Chaos will win.......It would have been more clear if you highlighted important parts before or said underneath, there, that supports my point of xxxxxxx. Just the fluff quote doesn't help me much since I forgot whatever you said a couple pages back, I'm not blind, thankyouverymuchkindsir.

I'm gonna go with mild optical impairment then, but I've quoted myself already. Yes, I could have posted that at the bottom, but I posted it later, and you missed it.


That's kind of the point. The Forces of Chaos in the Eye are much more than what Horus commanded. When Abaddon calls, they all unite, but they don't unite for long enough to make it count.

Perhaps a better question: What % of the forces in the eye can actually leave the eye for long enough to mount an assault to the galactic center? The forces in the eye preheresy were probably pretty darned expansive before any CSM got there anyhow but are too closely linked with the warp to amount to much outside of the immediate vicinity of the eye.

Yeah, missed that, too busy reading and responding to huge block quote and got posted under while I was reading/responding. Running on 20/20 here.

1hadhq wrote:
- death Guard / mortarion: could leave the warp to escape Draigo....

I can't stop chuckling at this...

When I say Forces of Chaos, I don't mean Daemons. They're unreliable, and they aren't included in what Ruven says. So really, everything. Warships, Astartes, Titans, the Lost and the Dammed, Dark Mechanicus, they could all leave. But like Ruven also says, there's not enough unity. Everyone's out for number 1 in the Eye of Terror. It's not unlike the Imperium. Allegiances are made out of self-interest, to further only selfish goals, survival being the top one. Rarely does Abaddon manage to unite the Eye under a common objective, but since the 13th Crusade was, for all intents and purposes, a success for Abaddon, it shows what they can do.

I've always seen Ruven as desperately grasping at straws... not accurately seeing things for what they are

Wouldn't that only apply if Ruven were somehow unconvinced by what he's saying? Convenient that the opposite is true.

Just because he's an ardent believer in something doesn't make it true. See any number of historical figures.

True enough, but the same could be said of a number of things characters in 40k believe. Ruven isn't a fanatic. In that snippet he says he loathed Abaddon, he did not serve the Despoiler for his charming charisma.
When a person that despises you and is prepared to slit your throat should you say anything that could not be true begrudgingly agrees with something like this, it lends weight to how believable it is. I could present the information from Talos's point of view, that's two characters now, both are from quite different perspectives.

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah I'd would have guessed you'd pretty much ignore everything I typed.

I feel your pain. It's like talking to a wall with a picture of another wall on it. Please, don't feed the troll, it's not good for your blood pressure.

Reminds me of conversations about Custodes and Tau

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.

The forces Abbadon controls? Please list them..or better yet, get off that idea

Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.

A problem might be that the Imperium wouldn't let the primarchs fight in case they got killed though.

The problem with Chaos is, it's divided, no pun intended.
Abby can manage to coerce or subdue part of the other legions and renegade marines to his cause but looking at how many took part in the last crusade I don't see that impossible
force to fight against.
Even the traitor primarch are to busy with their own business to care, expecially the deamon princes.

Durza wrote:
Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.

Trouble?
Or not so easy to do.. maybe not really possible given the fluff provided by GW.

Durza wrote: And your 3:1 ration is a bit off there. Thousand Sons weren't helping, Emperor's Children went around torturing civilians, didn't fight much. And the Chaos legions had just purged their numbers of loyalists.

Off?
It fits istvaan, the siege of terra, etc.
The ultramarines were absent mostly, the Dark Angels maybe too far out and the space wolves also haven't got fluff what they did between Propsero and the siege.

- istvaan: 4/5 traitors and 4 hidden traitors = 8(9) vs 3 loyalists.
- terra : 9 traitors vs 3 loyalists .

Doesn't look like a 3:1 is off. Surely 7 years had a lot of other events we may not know of yet and the 3:1 just sounds right for the major fights. But why didn't the oh so mighty chaos legions perform a face off, 1:1 ? Lack the will to go the full length of a path, even when it costs your own life. They fled and they will flee again....

Durza wrote:
And you're basing this on what precisely? Nothing? It says in the codex that all the traitor legions have acknowledged Abaddon as Horus' successor and Warmaster.

Warmaster? A imperial title?
Traitor legions no longer exist. Did you miss GW's hint on loyalists = second founding > chapters, traitors = splintered into warbands?

Durza wrote:
So again, you're dismissing them because you feel like it.

No , because anything about IW tells us nothing of Perturabo as still in charge of a legion and caring for this 'long war' and thus you deal with warbands that may or may not follow.

Durza wrote:
Why exactly would they consider their revenge a game?

Why not?
They lost their way already. Their own primarch ended their homeworld to stop growing more of them. Revenge? Unimportant to some as you could see with the raptor cults.

Durza wrote:
No, they fight for Chaos. And they set up cults throughout the Imperium, as well as being responsible for the corruption of chapters and the infiltration of Imperial organisations. Why exactly do you think they'd fight on both sides?

Its possible they play this secrets inside secrets too hard to still know where they stand....
But seriously the audio-drama with the world eaters prevented from intercepting the raven guards escape from istvaan seems to hint at more than just pure "we capture it for chaos". But we' ll see in the HH series to come. Doubt they change them but the idea is well liked at dakka since 'Legion'.

Durza wrote:
I think you're a bit mixed up there. The Thousand Sons aren't actually idiots, whatever you seem to think.

To quote Durza:

Durza wrote:
Thousand Sons weren't helping,

Precedence.
And their solitary ways pre-heresy haven't changed much afterwards. Idiots? Surely not. They have plans, plans that may not involve Abby's success at all. Did any of the traitors speak up for them at nicaea?

Durza wrote:
And how would them showing up as warbands hinder them at all?

Warbands aren't run the same way as legions. A group of warbands seeking sensations may run off in several directions when you don't keep an eye on them. A legion would do as ordered. Thats the difference. Pre-heresy EC would perform well, post heresy EC may cause more trouble than the distraction they provide is worth.

Durza wrote:
And I don't really see how warbands are any different to companies or chapters. You seem to think that every Chaos legion would rather destroy a minor planet than Terra. Even though Terra is their greatest grudge, whatever may have happened in the intervening years.

So what is it? chaos legion or warband? Can't have both....
I don't think they destroy minor targets instead of terra. But I firmly believe an organized force of disciplined troops would stick with the plan where this wild collection of warbands , cults and self-aggrandizing champions isn't going to remember the plan 1 day after Abby told them of it. Chaos is chaotic and thus soo many will follow their own agenda and drag everyone else into that conflict. In this case, the xeno are the "laughing third" ( forgive me if that doesn't fly in english ).

Durza wrote:
'Sorry, Abaccon, I can't go settle my ancient grudge against my brothers and fulfill the oath I took to destroy the entire Imperium, I have to go fight Tau.' Yeah, that's likely.

Are you unaware of the whining of the Tau fanbase if they cannot participate?

What exactly did Angron achieve except visiting Armageddon once?

Durza wrote:
You do realise that 50% of Abaddon's force is a lot, right?

Depends on the value behind 100%.
If 100% are 1000, 50% isn't much.
So please enlighten us all how many chaos marines are available in M41.

Durza wrote:
Seriously, the way you're going on, you'd think that Abaddon is the only Chaos worshipper who wants the Imperium gone.

The chaos worshippers want personal gain.
The imperium is not important if it doesn't interfere with that.
Abby wants it gone but he's old. The young ones want a galaxy of chaos and thus any order would be not welcome.
Won't matter if Eldar, Necrons or Tau replace the IoM as major 'force of order'.

Durza wrote:
So they are doomed, but they're bored of it? What?

Everyone is doomed. Or not. Watch GW's course in 6th.

Durza wrote:
Yeah, immortality and incredible power sure is a terrible life.

1hadhq wrote:

Durza wrote:
Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.

Trouble?
Or not so easy to do.. maybe not really possible given the fluff provided by GW.

Listing every single force Abaddon controls? No, I wouldn't be able to do that, but I'll maintain that it would be separate from proving you 'wrong'.

Durza wrote: And your 3:1 ration is a bit off there. Thousand Sons weren't helping, Emperor's Children went around torturing civilians, didn't fight much. And the Chaos legions had just purged their numbers of loyalists.

Off?
It fits istvaan, the siege of terra, etc.
The ultramarines were absent mostly, the Dark Angels maybe too far out and the space wolves also haven't got fluff what they did between Propsero and the siege.
- istvaan: 4/5 traitors and 4 hidden traitors = 8(9) vs 3 loyalists.
- terra : 9 traitors vs 3 loyalists .

Doesn't look like a 3:1 is off. Surely 7 years had a lot of other events we may not know of yet and the 3:1 just sounds right for the major fights. But why didn't the oh so mighty chaos legions perform a face off, 1:1 ? Lack the will to go the full length of a path, even when it costs your own life. They fled and they will flee again....

It's a 3:1 ratio alright. The Thousand Sons, whilst they probably didn't directly assault the Fortress of Terra, were there, summoning Daemons and using their sorcery to break down the Emperor's wards. Like Durza has said, assaulting a fortress is much more difficult than defending a fortress. Whilst assaulting, numbers mean little outside of attrition.

Durza wrote:
And you're basing this on what precisely? Nothing? It says in the codex that all the traitor legions have acknowledged Abaddon as Horus' successor and Warmaster.

Warmaster? A imperial title?
Traitor legions no longer exist. Did you miss GW's hint on loyalists = second founding > chapters, traitors = splintered into warbands?

Isn't it strange that the Imperium kept the title of Warmaster despite the infamy it holds? Abaddon is the Warmaster, Horus's successor.

Durza wrote:
So again, you're dismissing them because you feel like it.

No , because anything about IW tells us nothing of Perturabo as still in charge of a legion and caring for this 'long war' and thus you deal with warbands that may or may not follow.

Dead Sky, Black Sun has Pertrurabo still concerned with the actions of his Legion. If he were to re-take the field, the Iron Warriors would follow thanks to their central command base and the fact that they remain largely unified.

Durza wrote:
Why exactly would they consider their revenge a game?

Why not?
They lost their way already. Their own primarch ended their homeworld to stop growing more of them. Revenge? Unimportant to some as you could see with the raptor cults.

The motive matters little. When called upon, the Raptors will fly due to their own craving for violence, which Abaddon can provide better than any other.

Durza wrote:
No, they fight for Chaos. And they set up cults throughout the Imperium, as well as being responsible for the corruption of chapters and the infiltration of Imperial organisations. Why exactly do you think they'd fight on both sides?

Its possible they play this secrets inside secrets too hard to still know where they stand....
But seriously the audio-drama with the world eaters prevented from intercepting the raven guards escape from istvaan seems to hint at more than just pure "we capture it for chaos". But we' ll see in the HH series to come. Doubt they change them but the idea is well liked at dakka since 'Legion'.

That was 10,000 years ago. Hunt for Voldorius gives the true state of the Alpha Legion, broken warbands like most other Legions.

Durza wrote:
I think you're a bit mixed up there. The Thousand Sons aren't actually idiots, whatever you seem to think.

To quote Durza:

Durza wrote:
Thousand Sons weren't helping,

Precedence.
And their solitary ways pre-heresy haven't changed much afterwards. Idiots? Surely not. They have plans, plans that may not involve Abby's success at all. Did any of the traitors speak up for them at nicaea?

12 Legions spoke with the Thousand Sons. At most 8 of them were Loyalists, since the Wolves were opposed.

Durza wrote:
And how would them showing up as warbands hinder them at all?

Warbands aren't run the same way as legions. A group of warbands seeking sensations may run off in several directions when you don't keep an eye on them. A legion would do as ordered. Thats the difference. Pre-heresy EC would perform well, post heresy EC may cause more trouble than the distraction they provide is worth.

Which is a point that has been made a few times now.

Durza wrote:
And I don't really see how warbands are any different to companies or chapters. You seem to think that every Chaos legion would rather destroy a minor planet than Terra. Even though Terra is their greatest grudge, whatever may have happened in the intervening years.

So what is it? chaos legion or warband? Can't have both....
I don't think they destroy minor targets instead of terra. But I firmly believe an organized force of disciplined troops would stick with the plan where this wild collection of warbands , cults and self-aggrandizing champions isn't going to remember the plan 1 day after Abby told them of it. Chaos is chaotic and thus soo many will follow their own agenda and drag everyone else into that conflict. In this case, the xeno are the "laughing third" ( forgive me if that doesn't fly in english ).

Which is a point that has been made a few times now. Regardless, not every warband is a bunch of raving directionless psychopaths. They wouldn't be able to function without some semblance of order to what they do, order than can be harnessed by Abaddon if he plays his cards right. Regardless, direction can be given. Leave the Skulltakers of Zhufor to charge down the center in a blood-rage, leave the warband of the Exalted to sneak round the side, therein lies balance. Effective, but admittedly not easy to coordinate.

Durza wrote:
'Sorry, Abaccon, I can't go settle my ancient grudge against my brothers and fulfill the oath I took to destroy the entire Imperium, I have to go fight Tau.' Yeah, that's likely.

Are you unaware of the whining of the Tau fanbase if they cannot participate?

What exactly did Angron achieve except visiting Armageddon once?

The deaths of nearly 100 Grey Knights, the deaths of countless billions of people, the scoring of several worlds. Then there's the Dominion of Fire. The galaxy is in a permanent state of attrition. These things ware the Imperium down.

Durza wrote:
You do realise that 50% of Abaddon's force is a lot, right?

Depends on the value behind 100%.
If 100% are 1000, 50% isn't much.
So please enlighten us all how many chaos marines are available in M41.

Clearly it's more than 1000 though. No one can give you exact numbers for everything, especially not this, the same how you can't give the exact numbers of Astartes in the Imperium or at the Eye of Terror's defense. The numbers would likely spiral up into the high tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, considering their numbers are more than they were at the Heresy.

Durza wrote:
Seriously, the way you're going on, you'd think that Abaddon is the only Chaos worshipper who wants the Imperium gone.

The chaos worshippers want personal gain.
The imperium is not important if it doesn't interfere with that.
Abby wants it gone but he's old. The young ones want a galaxy of chaos and thus any order would be not welcome.
Won't matter if Eldar, Necrons or Tau replace the IoM as major 'force of order'.

This point has been made several times now, a specific motive is necessarily required.

Durza wrote:
So they are doomed, but they're bored of it? What?

Everyone is doomed. Or not. Watch GW's course in 6th.

Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.

Son of Ultramar wrote:The problem with Chaos is, it's divided, no pun intended.
Abby can manage to coerce or subdue part of the other legions and renegade marines to his cause but looking at how many took part in the last crusade I don't see that impossible
force to fight against.
Even the traitor primarch are to busy with their own business to care, expecially the deamon princes.

And here is the answer we were looking.
Abby might be Warmaster in Horus place, but he will never lead an army like Horus had.
He can't even unite other Chaos Legions to aid him.
The only reason his Legion remains strong and powerful is his policy: "Everybody's welcome here".
Then he act like IG, defeating his enemies with numbers alone. But without support of other Legions he is crushed every time by Imperials who have much more manpower then him ( except 13'th Black Crusade who is still going with Imperial troops on the way and Imperial Navy controlling the Cadian System space ).

Horus never really united the other Chaos Legions either. The Night Lords were off on their own war with the Dark Angels, and had really turned way before Horus. The Word Bearers were the architects of the Heresy and were off failing against the Ultramarines. The Alpha Legion were supposedly double agents. The Emperor's Children could care less about his grand strategies and just wanted to probe some Earthlings, plus their Primarch was possessed at that point. The Death Guard were already zombie tools of Chaos. The Iron Warriors were venting their frustration by killing enemies and allies both. Angron had a score to settle with his dad. etc. etc.

Horus didn't unite jack squat, he just got lucky the other Primarchs also happened to be rebelling.

Omegus wrote:Horus never really united the other Chaos Legions either. The Night Lords were off on their own war with the Dark Angels, and had really turned way before Horus. The Word Bearers were the architects of the Heresy and were off failing against the Ultramarines. The Alpha Legion were supposedly double agents. The Emperor's Children could care less about his grand strategies and just wanted to probe some Earthlings, plus their Primarch was possessed at that point. The Death Guard were already zombie tools of Chaos. The Iron Warriors were venting their frustration by killing enemies and allies both. Angron had a score to settle with his dad. etc. etc.

Horus didn't unite jack squat, he just got lucky the other Primarchs also happened to be rebelling.

That's my point, Chaos will never be truly united to crush down the Imperium. They may win a battle or 2 but they will never win the war.

The whole setting of 40K is dedicated to the inevitable decline into Chaos.

Abaddon and his ilk probably won't accomplish any meaningful victories, but they do their part by causing devastation and keeping the Imperium a hegemonic and oppressive nightmare state. Combined with ever increasing rates of psychic awakenings, it's only a matter of time before we have another Eye of Terror-esque cataclysm that swallows up the whole galaxy.

iproxtaco wrote:
Isn't it strange that the Imperium kept the title of Warmaster despite the infamy it holds? Abaddon is the Warmaster, Horus's successor.

So if he runs with an imperial title, he has to take the dutys that come with this too.
Hi Abby, back into the emperors fold?

( otoh GW explained the title was rarely used after the heresy and different ones are common now. Example: Lord Solar Macharius. )

iproxtaco wrote:
Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.

If things stay , nothing changes. To lose would imply things move... which cannot happen as the setup is based on playable factions.
Thus there is no winner ever. Without a winner , there is no loser.

Omegus wrote:The whole setting of 40K is dedicated to the inevitable decline into Chaos.

Abaddon and his ilk probably won't accomplish any meaningful victories, but they do their part by causing devastation and keeping the Imperium a hegemonic and oppressive nightmare state. Combined with ever increasing rates of psychic awakenings, it's only a matter of time before we have another Eye of Terror-esque cataclysm that swallows up the whole galaxy.

HA!

Were doomed....








..to never find out who wins..