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Manchu wrote:

The Lion: The Lion's loyalty to the Emperor has always been somewhat ambiguous....

Lion El'Jonson, moments after Curze implicates him as a Traitor by keeping him at the foremost reaches of the Galaxy wrote:

I do not care who knows the truth now, tommorow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is it's own reward.

From the man himself.

candy.man wrote:
• Some of the primarchs that ventured into the eye of terror have become tainted by chaos.

This is one of the problems that I see for Corax, Leman Russ and possibly Vulkan, who knows where he is. Even if they aren't corrupted they are damaged goods and the HLoT/Inquisition could use this to their advantage.

WGXH wrote:

Manchu wrote:

The Lion: The Lion's loyalty to the Emperor has always been somewhat ambiguous....

Lion El'Jonson, moments after Curze implicates him as a Traitor by keeping him at the foremost reaches of the Galaxy wrote:

I do not care who knows the truth now, tommorow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is it's own reward.

From the man himself.

But the point is loyalty to whom?

It's clear that the Lion expects loyalty to him above all else but where does his loyalty lie? He's made a deal with Peturabo for his own personal gain at a time when you don't know who you can trust. He's a shady character to say the least.

I expect that any of the returning Primarchs would fold into the existing Imperial structure. They may be able to organise a Crusade with their Chapter and its successors but I don't think any of them would be able to organise another Heresy to defy/recreate the IoM.
They might not be happy with how the IoM had turned out, and i hope they would visit their father, but there isn't much they could do as individuals.

If all the loyalist primarchs came back at the same time it's possible that they would get the Great Crusade started up again.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:
If all the loyalist primarchs came back at the same time it's possible that they would get the Great Crusade started up again.

I don't know if this will ever be possible again, the Imperium is in a pretty bad shape at the moment. The Primarchs might be awe inspiring figures that might push the Imperiums military to great feats but there are only a few of them. I'm not sure what real difference they would make.

If the likes of Angron and his brothers got wind that the Primarchs were back i'm sure this will stir them into activity.

The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.

Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.

You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.

But seriously, Primarchs would wield so much powerful army's now that it would be insane to oppose them.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.

You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy.

Derpty herp.

There were guardsmen during the great crusade.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.

You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.

But seriously, Primarchs would wield so much powerful army's now that it would be insane to oppose them.

As Chowder said, there were Guardsmen during the Crusade. And Titans. And there were Sisters of Silence then. And the Chaos Legions are bigger now, could co ordinate the attack with Huron if they felt like it, and have any number of heretics within the Inquisition thanks to greed and the Alpha Legion.

Just as Guard can crush all of the Astartes with their numbers so they can crush Chaos Legions, and there are millions of Sisters in the galaxy to.
With Primarchs to lead them in battle nothing could stop them.

Brother Coa wrote:
You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.

Chaos have quite a few Titan Legions themselves you know Coa.

Flaming Skulls, Legio Vulcanum I and Legio Mortis to name but a few.

Brother Coa wrote:Just as Guard can crush all of the Astartes with their numbers so they can crush Chaos Legions, and there are millions of Sisters in the galaxy to.
With Primarchs to lead them in battle nothing could stop them.

Primarchs lead the Chaos legions when they want to too... and never underestimate man's potential for treachery.

@Rice, basically every Forge World i nthe Imperium has it's own Titan Legion. Some of them have even several.

@Durza, I know that most Chaos Primarch are insane soulless behemots. I am just saying that whatever they do they can't defeat Imperium, they just lack manpower and machinery for that, and above all that Imperium now have specialist just for things liek them ( Kaldor Draigo ) - The Grey Knights.
With Primarchs against them they would have even less chance for that.

Brother Coa wrote:@Rice, basically every Forge World i nthe Imperium has it's own Titan Legion. Some of them have even several.

And who's to say that some of these do not betray the Imperium. The seeds of treachery are sown deep.

The Adamant Fury turned traitor in 863.M41 after turning their guns on the Imperial Troops during the Saint Cyllia Massacre.

Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Imperium: They have the Ultramarines.

They win automatically

Chaos have the Alpha Legion. You argument is invalid. The Ultramarines are Alpharius.

No your argument is invalid, since even the great Blood God Khorne wants to be an Ultramrines.

Emperor even said to Sanguinius: "This wouldn't be a problem if Horus was an Ultramarine. You know it's true."

Why would Khorne want to be an Ultramarine? Sure, Slaanesh, maybe, for one of its uniform fetishes, but apart from that...

"Trust me, somewhere deep in the Eye of Terror, the Blood God himself weeps alone in the dark, for he knows in his heart of hearts: no matter what he may do, no matter what incomparable feats he may accomplish, no matter how infinite and unfathomable his glory...he can never be an Ultramarine." - Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Eldrad Ulthran voluntarily sacrificed himself to Slaanesh, for he had finally foreseen that even had they struggled for all eternity, the Eldar would never be the equals of Ultramarines, nor could they ever fully grasp the glorious legacy of Roboute Guilliman. Any torment She Who Thirsts could conceive would pale in comparison to living with this horrible truth, and in the end, maybe Slaanesh would take pity on the Eldar since she, too, shares the pain of never being able to reach the shining peak of superiority that are the true Sons of Guilliman." - An unidentified farseer of Craftworld Ulthwé.

Now that's just silly. Slaanesh has every uniform in the galaxy for role play, so of course it can be an Ultramarine. Many a marine has woken up in a cold sweat after that dream.

Brother Coa wrote:"Trust me, somewhere deep in the Eye of Terror, the Blood God himself weeps alone in the dark, for he knows in his heart of hearts: no matter what he may do, no matter what incomparable feats he may accomplish, no matter how infinite and unfathomable his glory...he can never be an Ultramarine." - Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.

Yeah .. TEARS OF JOY!

Who wants to be an Ultramarine anyway?

Depends on who you ask. The Ultimate Ward of Marines, for example, is very vocal on his opinions of Ultramarine supremacy.

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

You make Abaddon cry

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

For the last 10k years, the daemon primarchs have been doing very little. They could lead their legions again if they felt like it, and killing the last loyal primarchs would be seen as a good reason for them.

Daemons find it easy to manifest where belief in the Chaos gods is strong. And guess what? The Chaos Marines believe in the Chaos gods.

The Imperial fleet has never been said to be far superior to the Chaos fleet, especially considering the Chaos fleet uses basically the same ships, and the Navy is engaged elsewhere.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.

iproxtaco wrote:
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.

Don't forget that Imperium can also team up with Eldar and Tau.
And even Necrons

iproxtaco wrote:
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.

Where is this from? If I recall correctly, Horus turned a third of the Imperium's fighting forces against the Emperor. The only forces Abaddon can reliably muster are those from the Eye of Terror. Are the worlds there really so densely packed?

iproxtaco wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.

Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.

And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?

Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.

The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.

The forces Abbadon controls? Please list them..or better yet, get off that idea
Horus had nearly half of the imperial forces AND was able to redirect so many possible opponents he had just to fight 3:1 and still lost.

So lets see:
- Word Bearers / Lorgar: isn't likely to follow Abby, isn't he? May usurp the lead-position.. Maybe no WB for Abby..
- Iron Warriors / Perturabo: zero fluff of Perturabo outside of Medrengard. If he doesn't move, who should keep his Warsmiths 'in line' and focused? At best, some are willing to follow Abby....considering istvaan where they didn't care for 'collateral damage' of chaos forces, I wouldn't count on them.
- Night Lords: Not interested in his games. Could share a goal and thus play along but aren't a reliable force to count on for Abby..
- Alpha Legion / 1 of 2 Primarchs left? : They may fight on both sides...so a few to follow Abby.
- Thousand sons / Magnus: obsessed with kicking space wolves... Most likely go for fenris instead of Terra. This may help Abby or not at all.
- Emperors children / (Fulgrim) : if slanessh supports Abby..but they had a few issues before and may also show up in warbands, not as Legio
- death Guard / mortarion: could leave the warp to escape Draigo....but seriously is split in warbands. Without morty they won't move as Legio. Either warbands or a run for Titan in force...
- World Eaters / Angron: Mr angry won't like to miss a fight, could come with some Demons or warbands. If not busy anywhere else.
unlikely to obey and stick with a plan. Could be mislead by his rage and kick something non-imperial...
- Black Legion / abbadon de despoiled : the black legion surely follows wherever Abby leads them.

- renegades who turned to chaos: may join for glory and "vengeance".. wouldn't overestimate their numbers. At best contribute 50% of Abbys force of marines.

- traitor guard: Some will show up, the size hinges on GW's intend. There isn't much in codices and rulebooks so they are tied to FW and BL
fluff. Both subcompanies could be wrong ..... Abby will have some and maybe some more of them.

- demons: depend on their "gods" and thus not reliable as the plans of them and Abby may differ..

- dark mech: Abby surely has to call upon favors and may bring some. Still no way as many as horus had.

- cultists and mutants: 5th column of chaos always present somewhere. But expendable and Abby won't rely on them.



Who is doomed?

- the galaxy as it may be eaten by nids, beaten by orks, ruled by crons, etc ?
- the IoM? to much doom and gloom gets old.
- abby? yes he is. Joined the ruinous powers. Got ruined... his future, his career, his legio, his Primarch.

I smell so much owning in here.