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nkelsch wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

I am nothing but an ork player with tens of thousands of ork points and own almost every ork model ever produced by GW armorcast and forgeworld.

I didn't say anything about fluff and I don't really care about your slapstick humor.

I do care about people abusing 25mm meganobz for advantage.
I do care about people using the already undefinable MAD dok rule in a way not intended by the rule writers and then claiming RAW RAW RAW where there is none due to the vauge intent of the rule and the conflict in editions due to the rule.
I do care about people putting forth false tactics out there usually by people who have never even used Mad Dok and the only way Mad Dok is as effective as people claim is by cheating either by intentionally disregarding the medpack rule or applying a liberally advantagous application to it. Most battle reports I have seen where mad Dok is used, he makes illegal movements.

Mad Dok is all but unuseable when attached to Meganobz against a skilled opponent who is fully aware how Mad Dok's rules are supposed to be played. He is a devastating wrecking ball when played against someone who assumes dok has simple rage or players simply assume the ork player is playing the rules correct.

If someone showed up with the intent to deepstrike 25mm MANZ with a dok and weirdboy I would immediately be on guard knowing this opponent was going to be constantly trying to misapply or fight about Mad Dok's rules. Building an army to exploit an unFAQed, unclear rule. This is the same 'Mad dok can give Kanz cybork because nothing says they can't and the FAQ assumes vehicles cannot be cyborked but the answer never confirms it.'

If you want to do it, prepare for fights, you better be damn precice in the rest of your movement (including your opponent kiting your models away from where you want them) and get your tactic vetted before showing up at a tourney. Personally, I don't need to win that way and there are plenty of clear ways to play the ork army where you don't need to take unclear parts of the rulebase to win more games.

GW declared RAI in their effect when applying Dok's movement restrictions. "the spirit of the rule" explicitly means any attempt to argue RAW instantly is wrong for Mad Dok. If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

Yes, I expect them to do exactly that. Other games who actually care about making solid rules do it, the should do it, too. In addition, "the spirit of the rule" is not given in that FAQ. It's not there. I don't know what you are seeing, but I see an explanation of how transports work for Grotznik. Anything you claim to be the spirit of the rule is just as good as anything I make up on the fly. If I actually am missing something, please quote the exact spirit of the rule.

Seriously, this is a back against the wall post. There is absolutely no indication of Mad Dok having any effect on weirdboyz at all. Nowhere. I gave you a chance to posts something of the like. You can't, because there is nothing. This has nothing at all to do with exploiting old models or other loopholes. You can't even proof that it is a loophole, you just feel that way. It's on par with other random "spirits of the rule" some people enforce in their games, like:
- Only one Warboss per army
- Only one unit of nobz per army
- Kanz are not units
- Nobz must be joined by your warboss
- Lootaz must be joined by at least one mek
- If you are playing blood axes, you may not field battle wagons
- If you are playing evil sunz, you may not field walkers, kannons or any footslogging unit.
- May not field any unit twice.

All of this is arguably the "spirit of the rule".

Mind you, you are calling all of us cheaters, just because we don't share your opinion on how it should be played. Which has nothing at all to do with RAW. If you force someone playing dok+weirdboy into automatic mishaps, you are just as much TFG than the guy bringing in his old trukks with old manz and hides them all out of sight behind new boyz.

You are also pretty wrong on "one scalpel short of a medpack" being undefinable or in need of a FAQ. There is no actual rules hole in it. Every model has to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy. No one may leave unless dead. If you can use a transport to get close you may do so, and leave it to charge ASAP. Pretty simple to understand when compared to the KFF or Deff rolla, if you ask me.

Bottom line: Exact quote of "the spirit of the rule", or you have no leverage at all.

Lack of FAQ doesn't make RAW. "spirit of the rule" is RAI which means there is no quoted rule which basically means anyone who makes any argument is never right or never wrong.

This is one of the reasons GW didn't do FAQs in the beginning because they assumed players were mature enough to know how the rules were supposed to work. Since you are putting up blinders and segmenting "the spirit" to only work on transports and ignore all other movement, like deep striking shows you are ignoring "the spirit" by not following all movement that puts you as fast as possible to the closest unit.

The answer is "clarify with your opponent or TO before the game."

If you are not moving as fast as possible, prepare to be called on it... And a lack of FAQ doesn't make your interpretation right... Especially since GW gave us "the spirit of the rule" which is to move as fast as possible towards the closest unit and assault if possible. If you make actions that slow the doc, don't move towards opponents or block assault, you are breaking the spirit of the rule and the RAI GW gave us.

Yes, a lack of FAQ does make it exactly that. Everything else is a "it doesn't say that!" argumentation. Like the codex also doesn't say that may gretchin don't have lascannons.

Placing a model for whatever reason is not affected by any movement restrictions, we have proven that. This includes placing a model for the purpose of moving somewhere by deep strike, which also has been proven. There is no exception to this rule found in neither Codex:Orks, nor the FAQ.

Rules that are written apply unless any other consent has been reached. Rules that are not written in an official rules text must not be followed at all, unless a consent has been reached. By consent you can change the playing board to a 8x8 checkered board and play chess with your orks. If no consent is reached, Grotznik may deep strike whereever you wish him to, because that's what the rules say.

You failed to show that the rules are preventing grotznik from deepstriking. You failed to show that there is any loophole in his rules at all, or an exploit thereof. You failed to show the exact spirit of the rules, because we don't know it. All remains is your opinion of grotznik deep striking is cheating. You are free to have that opinion and play it that way yourself, but are not free to force it onto others.


We both know that if someone brings old trucks to a table and does shady cover moves with them, he deserves a dreadsock.
We both know that ambushing Ghazghkull with Snikrot is a legal move.
We both know that someone keeping Grotzniks boyz spread out or even moves them freely is a cheating git.
We both know that deff rollas work on vehicles.

What we both don't know is what this ominous "spirit of the rule" is. That's why we stick to the rules, and don't make up totally random stuff.

Well, for people applying "spirit of the rule," how do you play when this unit is already in close combat and now gets sucked out? You are now leaving base to base in order to get at best, 1" away.

I have run a list with this combo with 30 'ard boyz, Dok, and Zogwort. I was not trying to gain some loophole advantage, I just personally liked the way it played. I also played it with Flash Gitz, Dok, and Zogwort. I was not trying to be TFG, I just wanted to screw around with different units to see what happened. And, I find Zogwort to be fun just for that one chance in about ten where you actually get to turn someone's IC into a squig.

And, at a tournament, I did happen to have this exact situation come up. I was tied in CC and 'ere we go went off. (Dok and Zogwort with the remnants of 30 'ard boyz). I asked my opponent how he thought we should play it. He really didn't care and just said place him wherever you want. This hurt me more than him. Zogwort and the Dok WANT to be CC most of the time. EWG removed me from CC, forces me to bunch up and be subjected to template weapons, and keeps me from assaulting that turn. So, before you accuse people of maliciously cheating, it does have its drawbacks.

Not all ork players are conniving cheats. If my opponent had said you need to teleport to the closest unit, I would have been fine with that. However, I would have at least asked "Let's figure out the minimum footprint I need to safely teleport, add 1" to that and that is how far away I will place the initial model."

Jidmah wrote:Yes, a lack of FAQ does make it exactly that. Everything else is a "it doesn't say that!" argumentation. Like the codex also doesn't say that may gretchin don't have lascannons.

Placing a model for whatever reason is not affected by any movement restrictions, we have proven that. This includes placing a model for the purpose of moving somewhere by deep strike, which also has been proven. There is no exception to this rule found in neither Codex:Orks, nor the FAQ.

Deepstriking is movement.

When placing the deepstriking model, did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy? If Yes, then you are good. if you answer no. then you haven't followed Mad Dok's rule.

Rules that are written apply unless any other consent has been reached. Rules that are not written in an official rules text must not be followed at all, unless a consent has been reached. By consent you can change the playing board to a 8x8 checkered board and play chess with your orks. If no consent is reached, Grotznik may deep strike whereever you wish him to, because that's what the rules say.

No... That is not what the rules say. Only if you imply 'ere we go is arriving from reserves because all deepstrike movements are arriving from reserves. That is not supported by the rules.

if Mad Dok arrives FROM RESERVES via deepstrike, the from reserves overrules his movement rules. 'ere we go does not make you arrive from reserves, and being allowed to be placed anywhere doesn't override Mad Dok's movement.

You have nothing to support your claims accept unFAQed interpretations of the mechanics you are using. Nothing says All Deepstrikes are from reserves, nothing says 'ere we go overrides Medpak, nothing says Deepstrike is not movement.

You failed to show that the rules are preventing grotznik from deepstriking.

He may Deepstrike... he must deep strike as close as possible because it is movement and his rule is not ignored because 'ere we go is not moving from reserves.

You failed to show that there is any loophole in his rules at all, or an exploit thereof.

You have failed to explain how Deepstrike is not movement. You have failed to explain how Deepstriking with 'ere we go counts as deploying from reserves. You have failed to show how 'ere we go overrides mad dok's movement restrictions.

You failed to show the exact spirit of the rules, because we don't know it. All remains is your opinion of grotznik deep striking is cheating. You are free to have that opinion and play it that way yourself, but are not free to force it onto others.

Apply the following to every movement action:

did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?

If the answer is YES, you are within the spirit of the rule. If the answer is NO you broke the spirit of the rule. The RAW rule doesn't allow embarking transports. The FAQ allows it based upon the spirit of the rule which can be followed by asking that important question.

We both know that if someone brings old trucks to a table and does shady cover moves with them, he deserves a dreadsock.
We both know that ambushing Ghazghkull with Snikrot is a legal move.
We both know that someone keeping Grotzniks boyz spread out or even moves them freely is a cheating git.
We both know that deff rollas work on vehicles.

What we both don't know is what this ominous "spirit of the rule" is. That's why we stick to the rules, and don't make up totally random stuff.

But your version of the rule requires a bunch of unFAQed and arguably debated issues to work.

You require people to accept ALL deepstriking is from reserves so movement rules are ignored. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept deepstriking is not movement. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept answering NO to "did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?" to accept it is following a rule that requires to move as fast as possible when the FAQ clearly shows such a rule has many caveats and there is a 'spirit of the rule' Now you want a FAQ to what moving as fast as possible means?

It is not as clear as you think it is and not a tactic anyone should hang their hat on because evn if it DID work how you claim, mad dok MANZ are a terrible combination.

All I said was clarify with your TO or opponent.

However, I would have at least asked "Let's figure out the minimum footprint I need to safely teleport, add 1" to that and that is how far away I will place the initial model."

I would say an argument can be made that this is legal... More legal than pretending DS isn't movement. Since the rule allows pre-measuring and a 100% chance of being placed correctly VS a 75% chance of mishap means it is the fastest way to move as close as possible and assault if via a clean deepstrike.

The only restriction is I would say you would have to do it in a straight line from Dok's current position to whomever is the current closest unit. No choosing a different unit. I would say pre-measuring for a safe initial deepstrike results in a closer to the enemy and as fast as possible to assault which is a valid position to take for friendly play. I would also ask your TO.

nkelsch wrote:When placing the deepstriking model, did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy? If Yes, then you are good. if you answer no. then you haven't followed Mad Dok's rule.

See, this is not a rule. You argument dies here.

No... That is not what the rules say. Only if you imply 'ere we go is arriving from reserves because all deepstrike movements are arriving from reserves. That is not supported by the rules.

I never said that. Placing models is not movement. Grotznik has no choice where to go. If placement were movement, you would be forced to deploy Grotznik as close as possible to enemy units, which you are very obviously not.

He may Deepstrike... he must deep strike as close as possible because it is movement and his rule is not ignored because 'ere we go is not moving from reserves.

You failed to show that again - by quoting a single rule. You also failed to understand my argument.

You have failed to explain how Deepstrike is not movement. You have failed to explain how Deepstriking with 'ere we go counts as deploying from reserves. You have failed to show how 'ere we go overrides mad dok's movement restrictions.

You're right, I failed that. Because I never attempted to, because all these points are right. The process of deep striking overrides movement restrictions. Just like the process of firing a template weapon overrides the process of rolling to hit.

did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?

If the answer is YES, you are within the spirit of the rule. If the answer is NO you broke the spirit of the rule. The RAW rule doesn't allow embarking transports. The FAQ allows it based upon the spirit of the rule which can be followed by asking that important question.

So how about lash of submission? Tank shocks? Mawlocs? Monoliths? Magna grapple on Grotzniks Transport? Kareen? I just found six rules explicitly contradicting your imaginary rule, without even trying.

You require people to accept answering NO to "did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?" to accept it is following a rule that requires to move as fast as possible when the FAQ clearly shows such a rule has many caveats and there is a 'spirit of the rule' Now you want a FAQ to what moving as fast as possible means?

This is not a rule. "Gortznik moves" is a defined action in WH40k. Placing a model somewhere is not movement.

You know, you still haven't given an exact quote of the spirit of the rule. Reread you post, you'll find you're basing your entire argument on something non-existent.

My answer is: it is unclear

DS IS MOVEMENT, period. What is NOT clear is - when it becomes movement.

Also Jidmah - stop with the "show me the wording of spirit of the rule" schtick, its intellectually dishonest of you as yo know what they mean by it. They are saying " the spirit of his rule is to keep on moving towards the enemy as fast as possible", by using a transport as a specific example of the spirit. We know the spirit, but what cant be certain is when DS becomes movement.

Nkelsch - if you are saying the initial placement is movement, then I presume you NEVER scatter this model through impassable terrain, and take dangerous terrain tests if you pass through difficult terrain? Placement is not movement - its just not clear WHEN it becomes movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nkelsch - if you are saying the initial placement is movement, then I presume you NEVER scatter this model through impassable terrain, and take dangerous terrain tests if you pass through difficult terrain? Placement is not movement - its just not clear WHEN it becomes movement.

Well, depends. If he deepstrikes from reserves, then his rule is nullified due to movement restrictions upon deployment exception.

Since we don't know what counts as movement for deepstriking, we have no way to apply a RAW movement restriction, though with the spirit of the rule and combining 3-4 mechanics, 2 of which are conflicting special characters from 4th edition. I do know that deepstriking away from the closest unit or changing targets with another unit sure doesn't sound like the intended action of the rule.

I may not be able to tell you what part of Deepstriking *IS* movement but I can tell you what actions are not 'fast as possible to the closest enemy unit'.

Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

nkelsch wrote:Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

Yes, but you imply people would do this strictly to get this one oddball combination to go off. I ran it because I wanted a unit up front that was hard to kill while my other boyz advnaced behind. I also wanted to keep Zogwort alive vis a vis FNP, so I stuck him in there. This is an unintended by-product that only occurs less than 1 in 6 times (not sure on the math with a warphead).

But I agree I would ask to clear this up in advance as well for all rules that you feel are nebulous. I generally try to point out any issue in my army I aware of in advance (i.e. what part of the BW and deffrolla is hull, etc.) And, really, if you want to avoid unclear mechanics of 40k, than you has best throw out half the codexes and brb and we can all play with one squad of marines with bolters only.

Green is Best! wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

Yes, but you imply people would do this strictly to get this one oddball combination to go off. I ran it because I wanted a unit up front that was hard to kill while my other boyz advnaced behind. I also wanted to keep Zogwort alive vis a vis FNP, so I stuck him in there. This is an unintended by-product that only occurs less than 1 in 6 times (not sure on the math with a warphead).

But I agree I would ask to clear this up in advance as well for all rules that you feel are nebulous. I generally try to point out any issue in my army I aware of in advance (i.e. what part of the BW and deffrolla is hull, etc.) And, really, if you want to avoid unclear mechanics of 40k, than you has best throw out half the codexes and brb and we can all play with one squad of marines with bolters only.

Well if it is decided your unit mishaps into oblivion due to the unintended combination of the two SCs rules, then use your warphead rerolls to avoid 'ere we go.

nkelsch wrote:You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.

And some people require others to accept that Grotsnik's as afast as possible overrides 'ere we go's ANYWHERE. This also is not supported by the rules or FAQS. If it was there would be no argument.

Happyjew wrote:

nkelsch wrote:You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.

And some people require others to accept that Grotsnik's as afast as possible overrides 'ere we go's ANYWHERE. This also is not supported by the rules or FAQS. If it was there would be no argument.

Specific movement overrides general movement. 'Ere we go says you may go anywhere, Dok's rule tells you that anywhere better be as fast as possible to the closest unit.

Regular movement can be made in any direction, mad Dok's rule overrides that. By your logic, Mad Dok can always move whatever direction he wishes because the rulebook allows free movement in any direction.

nkelsch wrote:

Well if it is decided your unit mishaps into oblivion due to the unintended combination of the two SCs rules, then use your warphead rerolls to avoid 'ere we go.

I doubt anyone would allow that. You roll for the power and get 'ere we go. Once you agree to that and set the model down for scatter, I think pretty much everyone would say you are past the point for re-rolling your weirdboy powers.

That's like saying if I rolled Zzap and fail to damage a vehicle, I can reroll his power and try for something else.

Again, back to the original topic. While I don't think Grotsnik's rule should apply to this power (after all, weird boyz are not supposed to "be in control" hence random abilities) and you should be able to place your teleporation wherever. If my opponent insisted, I would say that it needs to be placed in a spot where the unit will not mishap if I roll a hit.

Now, here is another question. Since time and space are relative travelling through the warp, *if* we did agree that the unit must deepstrike as close as possible, does it have to be the nearest unit or can it be any enemy unit as long as you end up within an inch away?

No, his point is that if you decide that ere we go + mad dok == oblivion, then you dont even need to place a model -you know youre going to die, so you just reroll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, his point is that if you decide that ere we go + mad dok == oblivion, then you dont even need to place a model -you know youre going to die, so you just reroll.

Basically if you play this combo and for whatever reason the unfavorable ruling is seen as the one you must follow by TO mandate or losing a 4+ roll-off, then anytime you get 'ere we go just reroll your psychic power selection before executing. You can basically give yourself a 1/36 chance of getting that power.

Just ask 'how it will work' before it happens and you can avoid game-ending conflict by blipping 800 points to oblivion.