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It isnt premeasuring if, in order to comply with a rule, you must measure. So, in the case of Rage you DO get to measure the distance to other units - otherwise you cannot move towards the closest enemy unit. Same for Mad Doc. If you dont measure you may not comply with the rule.

Isn't 'move' in the context it's used in the Medpack rule the same 'move' used consistently to refer to when a model uses its own legs, wheels, jets etc to propel itself a certain limited distance that takes into account intervening terrain and models? 'Ere we go does not 'move' the unit, it 'places' it.

...using the Deepstrike Rules, which is a move (ref: may not move any further, requiring DS to be a move)

lindsay40k wrote:Isn't 'move' in the context it's used in the Medpack rule the same 'move' used consistently to refer to when a model uses its own legs, wheels, jets etc to propel itself a certain limited distance that takes into account intervening terrain and models? 'Ere we go does not 'move' the unit, it 'places' it.

Just a quick FYI, DEEPSTRIKING is movement.

It is foolish to try to force the ork player to put their mob 1 inch away from an enemy unit. 'Ere we go is deep striking, a form of deployment. Movement restrictions like rage are ignored the turn that they deploy(p 94), so medpack is not applicable to the situation as it is a redeployment.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It is foolish to try to force the ork player to put their mob 1 inch away from an enemy unit. 'Ere we go is deep striking, a form of deployment. Movement restrictions like rage are ignored the turn that they deploy(p 94), so medpack is not applicable to the situation as it is a redeployment.

-cgmckenzie

Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

Not true. You can take a DT test while running, which is technically a shooting action. We can argue the semantics until we are blue in the face, but running is done in the shooting phase. It is not considered part of movement (as done in the movement phase). And to those who say "running is a form of movement," I disagree. Per the FAQ, grotsnik has to MOVE (in the movement phase) towards the closest unit, assaulting if possible. In the shooting phase, he can run or shoot. If running was considered movement, the FAQ would have stated grotsnik has to run and can never shoot. But since the FAQ gives you the option to run or shoot (therefore ignoring Medpak since you are not moving as fast as possible towards the enemy), you can infer that running is not defined as movement per the 40k definition. (Now, I would say if you do run, you have to run towards the nearest enemy, but that is for another thread.)

With 'ere we go, you are deep-striking a unit. This is a form of deployment. If it was movement, I would be allowed to assault. But I am not, so it is not movememt. Since Medpak does not apply during the shooting phase, it would stand to reason it does not apply during deployment. After all, you do not have to deploy as close as possible to the nearest enemy, do you?

If you are going to try and state that 'ere we go must move towards the closest unit, what happens when you are locked in combat? You cannot deep strike closer than that. The game breaks down.

Simply put, 'ere we go trumps Medpak for one brief moment. Put the weirdboy where you want and enforce medpack once their boots are back on the ground.

Running is performed INSTEAD of shooting, and IS movement.

Green is Best! wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

Not true. You can take a DT test while running, which is technically a shooting action. We can argue the semantics until we are blue in the face, but running is done in the shooting phase. It is not considered part of movement (as done in the movement phasenowhere does it say movement is limited to the movement phase). And to those who say "running is a form of movement," I disagree. Per the FAQ, grotsnik has to MOVE (in the movement phase) towards the closest unit, assaulting if possible. In the shooting phase, he can run or shoot. If running was considered movement, the FAQ would have stated grotsnik has to run and can never shoot. But since the FAQ gives you the option to run or shoot (therefore ignoring Medpak since you are not moving as fast as possible towards the enemy), you can infer that running is not defined as movement per the 40k definition. (Now, I would say if you do run, you have to run towards the nearest enemy, but that is for another thread.)

With 'ere we go, you are deep-striking a unit. This is a form of deployment. If it was movement, I would be allowed to assault. But I am not, so it is not movememt. Since Medpak does not apply during the shooting phase, it would stand to reason it does not apply during deployment. After all, you do not have to deploy as close as possible to the nearest enemy, do you?

If you are going to try and state that 'ere we go must move towards the closest unit, what happens when you are locked in combat? You cannot deep strike closer than that. The game breaks down.

Simply put, 'ere we go trumps Medpak for one brief moment. Put the weirdboy where you want and enforce medpack once their boots are back on the ground.

In that case I strongly advise you to read the rules for Dangerous terrain tests, and know/understand they may only be taken when units move/moved etc

PS Running is movement, it's done instead of shooting yes. However it still follows rules for movement. Similar to assault moves ... You're confusing the movement phase and movement

Okay, so how does the Deepstrike Table work, then?

Let's accept that Grotsnik, despite having enough self-control to order his Shoota Boy mates to take positions and fire on a unit 7" away, the moment a Weirdboy starts the green glowy business preceding 'Ere We Go! will jump on him and demand that both of them and their accompanying mob be tellyported into a trap which will likely kill them unless the Weirdboy cocks up his orders.

Now, what happens on the various Deepstrike results?

Terrible Accident - the Ork's opponent gets their wish and has a dangerous unit removed from play by a suspiciously partisan-looking rules interpretation.

Misplaced - well, we've established that Medpack overrides the Deep Strike deployment rules, so the Orks' opponent is now mandated to place Grotsnik and co an inch away from the nearest enemy unit, ta very much. (Or does Medpack only apply when it inconveniences the Ork player?)

Delayed - oh, well now, the unit is no longer on the table and goes into Reserve and DS's in. Does Grotsnik STILL have to attempt suicide when he comes in, now there's no 'but he's not coming in from reserve as such, he's moving/being placed on the board (the two are the same apparently) by a mechanism that usually only ever applies to reserves' to claim? If so, on what unit?

TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Jidmah wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

None of this has any effect on deep strike, does it? So, for the reason of deepstrike, why is one "scalpel short of a medpack" different from rage in any way? As the singular model has no choice in movement in either case, none of your points add anything to the argument. Rage also isn't in the ork codex and has a different name if you want to add more random nitpicks.

Please make a note of how nothing I said had any connection to Deepstrike deployment.

It was more than just a nitpick, it is something I am rather passionate about: many people seem to think that "One scalpel Short" is just rage that does not require LOS, it is much more limiting however.

As for the Deepstrike argument...

we have 2 issues to contend with.

The first is that Deepstrike specifies that the initial model may be placed anywhere n the table, while OSS specifies that any movement by grotsnik must be directly towards the nearest enemy unit, as fast as possible(And the removal of forced movement on the turn that models arrive is in the reserves rules, not the deepstrike rules)

The second is that, per the Ork FAQ, Grotsnik's movement rules are conferred onto any vehicle he is embarked onto; thus leading us to a "spirit of the Rule" issue.

unfortunately I have to resort to a non-Ork FAQ for precedent, but then it is the Only FAQ that ever deals with non-reserves deepstriking; the grey Knights FAQ on "The Summoning":

Q: If a unit being transported with The Summoning
psychic power suffers a Delayed mishap what happens?
(p25)
A: They are placed in Reserve and will arrive by Deep
Strike anywhere on the board once they turn up again.

Since this is the only ruling we have for a unit on the board, deepstriking, and then suffering a deepstrike mishap; we can assume that all such instances would be counted as "arriving via deepstrke"(also the limitations on further movement and assaulting both refer to "arriving via Deepstrike") because of the "arriving" we can assume the reserves rules are in effect, and therefore may apply the removal of compulsory movement for the "arriving from reserves".

Therefore Deepstriking through a wierdboy'z 'Ere we go would not be subject to Grotsniks OSS, as it is placed via the "Deepstrike rules", which in turn are assumptive of "Arriving from reserves", which in turn specifes that compulsory movement is removed on the turn a unit so arrives.

The game after a game in which someone tried this 'suicide lol' interpretation on me, I'd take Zagstruck with a full unit of Stormboyz, and have two Warpheads join them ASAP. Each turn got a >50% chance of your choice of a fresh Deep strike, a free Waaagh! or Warpath.

rigeld2 wrote:TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Don't attach mad dok to weirdboyz?

He can deepstrike from reserves just fine because reserves has a rule to override his rule. "'ere We Go" does not. So yes, Weirdboy + mad dok is basically suicide. Squigpoo happens...

Because GW decided to implement 'the spirit of the rule' due to a 4th edition rule in a 5th edition rulebook, people can validly argue 'intent' all day long because GW gave us intent with this particular character. If you don;t want to fight about it, then don't use the doc.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:In that case I strongly advise you to read the rules for Dangerous terrain tests, and know/understand they may only be taken when units move/moved etc

PS Running is movement, it's done instead of shooting yes. However it still follows rules for movement. Similar to assault moves ... You're confusing the movement phase and movement

OK. Maybe that was not the best way to convey what I was trying to say. Yes, I am well aware of tests, etc. for running. What I was trying to get across was that Grotsnik has the choice to either run or shoot. There was a long debate over this prior to the FAQ that since Grotsnik has to move "as fast as possible" he had to run every turn. This was proven false. So, since he can opt to shoot (and not run), there is already some limitation to his One Scapel rule.

Couple that with 'ere we go, and you now have a unit arriving on the field as if from deepstrike. With deepstrike, it is if you are coming in from reserves. When you come in from reserves, you are not reuquired to use One Scalpel rules from where they enter the table. It is only until after they arrive that they then must move towards the closest enemy. Would the same not apply towards deepstriking?

nkelsch wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Don't attach mad dok to weirdboyz?

He can deepstrike from reserves just fine because reserves has a rule to override his rule. "'ere We Go" does not. So yes, Weirdboy + mad dok is basically suicide. Squigpoo happens...

Because GW decided to implement 'the spirit of the rule' due to a 4th edition rule in a 5th edition rulebook, people can validly argue 'intent' all day long because GW gave us intent with this particular character. If you don;t want to fight about it, then don't use the doc.

I'm not defending either side - just pointing out that by saying he must deep strike at the 1" mark from an enemy unit, you're essentially removing the unit from the game.

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not defending either side - just pointing out that by saying he must deep strike at the 1" mark from an enemy unit, you're essentially removing the unit from the game.

Most of the time he's not actually going to wind up where you place him, due to scatter.

Assuming a fairly large Ork unit and target, the odds of a collision are pretty close to 50%.

Deep-striking (and teleportation) is not movement, it is deployment. In fact, it replaces movement. If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Deep-striking deployment has it's own rules - and they don't conflict with Mad Dok's rules, because one governs deployment and deepstrike re-deployment, while the other governs movement.

"may not move any further" dictates that it is, in fact, movement

Dashofpepper wrote:Deep-striking (and teleportation) is not movement, it is deployment. In fact, it replaces movement. If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Good point! I retract my position - enjoy a first turn multicharge by Ghazghkul and his mates, in a deathstar that makes Draigowing look a bit wimpy!

Dashofpepper wrote: If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Er... you have that backwards. It's the movement rules, not deployment rules, that force you to stay more than 1" from enemy models...

insaniak wrote:The closest you will get to a ruling on this is the vehicle clarification from the Ork FAQ:

Ork FAQ wrote:
Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him
closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved
normally? (p59)
A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will
not prevent him from charging that turn and will also
get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving
normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the
vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as
fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow
Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as
soon as possible

In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible, how is Deep Striking 1" away from (or even on top of) an enemy unit with 7 or more models, and therefore greatly increasing his chance to mishap and NOT charge, in keeping with the spirit of the rule? I know people hate fluff on this site, but the spirit of the rule above is that he is a thinking creature who will embark on a vehicle if doing so helps him to get into close combat faster. He is not a mindless automaton like BA with Rage or Nids with instinctual behavior when separated from a synapse. I would like to think he should be Deep Striking intelligently, but that may be my own bias at work.

There is another crafty option that might be viable (READ: so crazy that it might just work!). The point has also been made that if he is coming on from reserves or ambushing with Snikrot, he does not have to enter from the point on the edge of the table closest to the closest enemy unit to that table edge. He can come on from my choosing. Why? Because there is no reference of distance to a model not on the table. I fathom that once he is removed from the table to Deep Strike via the 'Ere we go! rule, there is no longer a reference from him to ANY of the enemy models, and I can Deep Strike as I please. I am instinctively not confident that this is not an appropriate interpretation, but it would be cool.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible...

It's not. The spirit of the rule, as I see it, is simply that if he moves, he moves towards the enemy.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

insaniak wrote:In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible, how is Deep Striking 1" away from (or even on top of) an enemy unit with 7 or more models, and therefore greatly increasing his chance to mishap and NOT charge, in keeping with the spirit of the rule? I know people hate fluff on this site, but the spirit of the rule above is that he is a thinking creature who will embark on a vehicle if doing so helps him to get into close combat faster. He is not a mindless automaton like BA with Rage or Nids with instinctual behavior when separated from a synapse. I would like to think he should be Deep Striking intelligently, but that may be my own bias at work.

There is another crafty option that might be viable (READ: so crazy that it might just work!). The point has also been made that if he is coming on from reserves or ambushing with Snikrot, he does not have to enter from the point on the edge of the table closest to the closest enemy unit to that table edge. He can come on from my choosing. Why? Because there is no reference of distance to a model not on the table. I fathom that once he is removed from the table to Deep Strike via the 'Ere we go! rule, there is no longer a reference from him to ANY of the enemy models, and I can Deep Strike as I please. I am instinctively not confident that this is not an appropriate interpretation, but it would be cool.

3 things:

1. If you are deepstriking from reserves, reserves has a rule that ignores other rules that conflict. Mad Dok coming in from reserves via deepstrike is not impacted by 'medpak' and may come in wherever.

2. If you mishap and are placed in reserves via DELAYED, then when you deploy next time, you are coming in from reserves where the disregarding of 'medpak' happens.

3. 'ere we go is mandatory and not optional. (unless you reroll something else) so it is forced upon the unit so the dok can't choose to not 'ere we go if it were to impact assaulting. You could not embark to avoid assault if you were going to be capable of moving and assaulting that turn to the closest unit (where embarking and moving would result in being closer but not assaulting) Because 'ere we go is forced, you have to deep strike but you must do it as close to the closest unit as possible... So say the Ghost of the GW FAQ that dictates 'the spirit of the game'

Or not... Whatever you and your opponent agree because Mad Dok is a total fight as people abuse and bend the already unclear rules for thier personal advantage. I would avoid deepstriking mad dok

nkelsch wrote:I would avoid deepstriking mad dok

That's probably the easiest option...

I would rather avoid making up arbitrary rules and simply stick to the books. Which contain none of the thing either of you suggested. After I've done that I'll field whatever units I feel like.

What I want is Deep Striking Terminators with Feel No Pain in my Ork Army. Is this too much to ask?

All kidding aside, to be able to Deep Strike the Good Doktor and a Warphead with Cybork Body Meganobs has some substantial tactical value. I am not looking for the easiest option of avoiding the discussion. I want to know if the rules allow it and how it will work.

CODEX: Orks
1. Pg 37, col 1, par 7, line 2, WEIRDBOYZ PSYCHIC POWERS: 5 'Ere We Go: "The Weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the Board as per the Deep Strike rules."
RULE BOOK
2. Pg 95, col 1, par 1, line 2, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve."
3. Pg 94, col 2, par 4, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Arriving from Reserve: "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserves."
4. Pg 95, col 1, par 2, line 1, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, . . ."

1. The 'Ere We Go! special rule says that the Weirdboy and his unit may be placed on the board as per the Deep Strike rules.
2. In order to use Deep Strike, the Weirdboy and his unit are treated as though they are arriving from reserves.
3. Since they are treated as having arrived from reserves, special rules governing forced movement (such as One Scalpel Short of a Med Pack) are ignored.
4, 1. Two rules supporting the idea I can place the unit anywhere on the board I choose.

This is my possibly correct but highly biased interpretation of the rules. If it is refutable, please do so before I embarrass myself somewhere other than the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I think about it, I don't think 1 treats them as Deep Striking from reserves, just that the Deep Strike rules will be used for deployment (like the moment rules are used for running and assaulting) and that Medpack will affect them. Thoughts?

EWG! does not move the models, it places them. AFAIK 'place' and 'move' are not used interchangeably.

OSS affects how Grotsnik and co move, and how a vehicle containing them moves. It doesn't mention anything about affecting how you can place Grotsnik and co.

If GW FAQ it to say 'yes, Grotsnik will attempt suicide, you get your wish non-Ork players', then so be it.

...yet DS IS movement. You cannot move any further, necessarily making it movement to begin with.