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Okay then, so to follow this through to its logical conclusion, if a mishap 3-4 happens, the Orks' opponent must place Grotsnik and co an inch away from the nearest unit to their starting position (and presumably a CSM player who hits him with Lash of Submission basically gives him a 2D6" free move towards the nearest CSM unit). What happens on mishap 5-6, then? Does this DS finally follow the DS rules as normal in that situation?

No, because the rule for his movmenet only affects HIS movement, not forced movement. Lash's specific nature would override, as would the DS mishap allowing the opponent to place them anywhere.

On a 5 - 6, reserves, then yes he's in reserves, and would DS in when available.

So you would always have to move grotznik onto the table from reserve where the table edge(es) is/are closest to an enemy unit, is that what you're saying, nos?

Arriving from reserves is movement, too.

Yes you would. Otherwise you have not moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy, have you?

So there is no point at all in joining Snikrot with Grotznik - something I find hard to believe.

No, nos. That is wrong. It says in the mission special rules how units arriving from reserve ignore movement restrictions, ie rage, on the turn they arrive. As was mentioned earlier, this is a movement restriction, comparable to rage. It is ignored on the turn that he arrives from reserve.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:...yet DS IS movement. You cannot move any further, necessarily making it movement to begin with.

I'm going to get my loaded dice (that only roll 3s and 4s) so that I can deep-strike a HUGE fething squad to mishap next to what I want to assault, mishap "Misplaced" and then scream and yell that the only place that you may place them on the entire board is 1" away from the unit I was trying to deep-strike next to in the first place.

cgmckenzie wrote:No, nos. That is wrong. It says in the mission special rules how units arriving from reserve ignore movement restrictions, ie rage, on the turn they arrive. As was mentioned earlier, this is a movement restriction, comparable to rage. It is ignored on the turn that he arrives from reserve.

-cgmckenzie

The distinction is 'ere we go' is not deploying from reserves. If he comes on with Snikrot, then he comes in from reserves which means his movement restrictions are ignored. 'ere we go does not deepstrike from reserves and are not being deployed from reserves so the restriction is not ignored.

This is just two wonky poorly written 4th edition rules for unused special characters that are conflicting with 5th edition rules... Why is it so hard that the unintentional result is suicide unit? bad things happen. Maybe it becomes a tactic if you take a weirdboy and mad dok your opponent will lash mad dok within 2" of the weirdboy and say 'MUHAHAHHAHAH! now your unit will implode! hahahahah!"

Using the deep strike rules includes ignoring all movement restrictions.

nkelsh, blaming it on the 5th edition doesn't work. Placing a model is not moving it. While the entire process of deep striking somewhere is movement, figuring out where you deep strike is not, and thus not bound by any movement rules at all. Otherwise, there is no reason to allow the "'ere we go"-deep strike to be further than 6" from it's starting position.

Cgm - oops, forgot that one, my bad!

Dash - brilliant, so once youve thrown your toys back in the pram, that IS the rules argument that you should follow.

Jidmah wrote:Using the deep strike rules includes ignoring all movement restrictions.

nkelsh, blaming it on the 5th edition doesn't work. Placing a model is not moving it. While the entire process of deep striking somewhere is movement, figuring out where you deep strike is not, and thus not bound by any movement rules at all. Otherwise, there is no reason to allow the "'ere we go"-deep strike to be further than 6" from it's starting position.

You may deepstrike from reserves, not all deepstrikes are deploying from reserves.

Deepstriking is movement.

So is movement, is not deploying from reserves, no exception is given.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:2. In order to use Deep Strike, the Weirdboy and his unit are treated as though they are arriving from reserves.

This is not precisely true. Ordinarily a unit woud have to be in reserve in order to Deep Strike. That doesn't mean that a unit that is granted the ability to Deep Strike by some other means is automatically assumed to be in Reserve. None of the various immediate teleportation psychic powers in the game at present refer to the unit being placed in reserve. They are just removed from the table, and then placed using the Deep Strike rules.


Edit: Missed this on the first read through:

As I think about it, I don't think 1 treats them as Deep Striking from reserves, just that the Deep Strike rules will be used for deployment (like the moment rules are used for running and assaulting) and that Medpack will affect them. Thoughts?

That's about how I see it, yes.

Incidentally, the fact that certain character combinations turn out to be useless doesn't necessarily mean that you're interpreting the rules incorrectly, as has been suggested at least once in this thread. It can also just mean that putting those characters together isn't particularly useful... While combining characters in units is allowed by the rules, it's not the driving force behind army creation.

The rules for deep striking say that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, so when 'ere we go is activated, the unit is pulled into the reserves for a moment(however brief). The rules for 'ere we go say to place the unit as per the deep striking rules, which ignore the medpack rule because of the requisite of being in reserve to deepstrike.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The rules for deep striking say that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, so when 'ere we go is activated, the unit is pulled into the reserves for a moment(however brief).

That doesn't work. A rule saying that you must 'x' in order to do 'y' does not give you permission to do 'x'... it simply limits you to only being able to 'y' after you 'x'...

So if you take the view that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, 'Ere We Go simply doesn't work at all, since it doesn't tell you to put the unit in reserve.

Very true, only a couple units in the game have rules that explicitly allow them to go into reserve. Swooping Hawks, and Mawloc come to mind.

'Ere we go says to place them on the board, following the deep strike rule.

You must be in reserve to deep strike according to the deep strike rule.

To follow both rules, you must put them into reserve so the power goes off. If you simply place them somewhere and roll for scatter, you do not satisfy the requirements for deep striking.

'Ere we go doesn't tell you to put them into reserve, but to be able to do the rest of the rule(deepstriking) you would have to reserve them.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:To follow both rules, you must put them into reserve so the power goes off.

That's not following both rules, because neither rule says to put them in reserves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:'Ere we go doesn't tell you to put them into reserve, but to be able to do the rest of the rule(deepstriking) you would have to reserve them.

Right. So again, if you follow the interpretation that you must be in reserve in order to deep strike, they can not do so since nothing says to put them in reserve.

It says to deepstrike them and one of the parts of deep striking is being in reserve. To be able to use the deep strike rules('ere we go specifically says to follow them) you must be in reserves. Part of following the order "deep strike the unit" is putting them in reserve, otherwise you cannot follow yhe deep strike rules that you are told to follow.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It says to deepstrike them and one of the parts of deep striking is being in reserve. To be able to use the deep strike rules('ere we go specifically says to follow them) you must be in reserves.

Ordinarily, yes. However, if a special rule allows you to deep strike without you being in reserves, then you don't go into reserves.

Part of following the order "deep strike the unit" is putting them in reserve, ...

No, it's not. The Deep Strike rules do not say to put the unit in reserve, they say that they deep strike from reserve.

If I can only spend money at the mall, and someone gives me money, that doesn't give me permission to go to the mall. So either I need a rule saying I can go to the mall, or I need a rule that lets me spend money without being at the mall.

Same thing here. Ere we go doesn't say to put the unit in reserve, just to use the deep strike rules to place them. So they don't go into reserve, they just get placed using the deep strike rules.

And a part of the deep strike rules is the unit having been in reserve.

For your analogy, it would be somebody telling you to buy a sweater from store x at the mall. To purchase your lovely sweater from store x, you have to go there and give them money. All these are requirements to get the sweater from store x but I don't need to tell you to go to the mall before buying the sweater, because that is the only way you can buy the sweater from store x(they don't have a phone or website and have a weird policy regarding buying things for other people. Don't ask).

Deep striking is like buying the sweater; the rules require that a deep striking unit be in reserve to be able to deep strike, placing the first model, rolling the scatter and scattering, then placing the unit around in the ring pattern. That series of steps are the rules for deep striking(simplified).

'Ere we go says to deep strike, following the rules for deep striking. To deep strike without breaking the deep strike rules, the unit must be in reserve to DS. Since we are not given permission to ignore this step but are told to DS, the unit must go to reserves to use DS.

-cgmckenzie

nothing states youre needed to go in reserves though. If you are going into reserves what breaks the restriction to make you available to deepstrike now?

If you fall in the "the spirit of the rule" must be obeyed...

What about placing Mad Dok and his unit (actually placing the models down) and pre-measure it so that they're 1" away. That way to satisfy Mad Dok's rule... THEN, roll for scatter... ?

Would that work?

Obviously dangerously close to mishap... but if you roll a hit, it'll satisfy Dok's rule.

Thought?

cgmckenzie wrote:And a part of the deep strike rules is the unit having been in reserve.

A part which you ignore if you are told to deep strike without going into reserve.

The unit doesn't have to be in reserve to deep strike. Being in reserve is simply normally the only way that the unit has the ability to deep strike.

For your analogy, it would be somebody telling you to buy a sweater from store x at the mall. To purchase your lovely sweater from store x, you have to go there and give them money. All these are requirements to get the sweater from store x but I don't need to tell you to go to the mall before buying the sweater, because that is the only way you can buy the sweater from store x(they don't have a phone or website and have a weird policy regarding buying things for other people. Don't ask).

Deep striking is like buying the sweater;

Ordinarily, yes. However, in this case, a Wierdboy has wandered over and said 'Ere you go, I found you this sweater.'

the rules require that a deep striking unit be in reserve to be able to deep strike, placing the first model, rolling the scatter and scattering, then placing the unit around in the ring pattern. That series of steps are the rules for deep striking(simplified).

And no matter how many times we revisit those rules, giving a unit the ability to deep strike won't mean that they are in reserve, and more than giving a unit the ability to shoot twice will mean that they have a rapid fire weapon.

Being in reserve allows a unit with the ability to deep strike to perform that deep strike. The ability to deep strike does not, in itself, grant the unit the ability to be placed in reserve.

Since we are not given permission to ignore this step but are told to DS, the unit must go to reserves to use DS.

Then the unit can not dep strike, since there is no rule that says that it goes into reserves.

CGM - listen to Insaniak, he is right.

The Reserve rules does NOT require you to be in Reserve initially, nor does it put you into reserve (find a rule saying it does - it talks about DS from Reserve, but has no rule putting you there in the first place) , meaning your argument doest hold water

So how has a rule restricting movement any effect on placing models anywhere on the table?

All I see here is a bunch of made up rules and random interpretation of "spirit of the rule". Not a single actual written rule. The spirit of the rules does not have to be followed at all - you don't do that for any other rule in the entire game either. Is simply an explanation from GW given for a funky ruling, just like a lot of other questionable explanations, for example a Land Raider's ancient and holy Machine Spirit being confused and disappointed if a skimmer dodges a ram.

If you want to force RAW on the "spirit of the rule"(which is a contradiction in itself) you must deepstrike on top of the closest model to the weirdboy's unit, anything else is not as close as possible. Nothing allows you to keep a safe distance to prevent mishaps. Or you scrap the stupid idea of randomly applying fluff to rules and simply play the game called WH40k. Applying "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" to "'ere we go!" is no less of a house rule than giving gretchin lacannons.

As per RAW you can deep strike grotznik wherever you want. Not a single post on these three pages has posted a single rule even indicating the opposite.

Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

So I did the math for Deep Striking 12 1 inch based Models with the first model being placed 1 inch away from an enemy unit. To be 'successful', the roll would have to scatter at some angle and distance that would prevent the first whole and second partial circle from being within 1 inch of the enemy models. There is no stacking the second partial circle of models on the far side away from the enemy since the Medpak rule is conferred to the entire mob and ALL of the models are attempting to get into CC as fast as possible. I argue against Deep Striking on top of enemy models because to do so would cause them to mishap and not help them get into CC any faster. They are sociopaths, not psychopaths. I also left out any other random detracting factors, like impassable terrain, other units close by, and irregularly shaped enemy squads. Here are my results:

H Freq D=>H Cos Angle Used %of 360 Chance
2 1 36 1.00 0.00 0.00 0.00% 0.00%
3 2 35 0.67 48.19 96.38 26.77% 26.03%
4 3 33 0.50 60.00 23.62 6.56% 6.01%
5 4 30 0.40 66.42 12.84 3.57% 2.97%
6 5 26 0.33 70.53 8.21 2.28% 1.65%
7 6 21 0.29 73.40 5.74 1.59% 0.93%
8 5 15 0.25 75.52 4.25 1.18% 0.49%
9 4 10 0.22 77.16 3.28 0.91% 0.25%
10 3 6 0.20 78.46 2.61 0.72% 0.12%
11 2 3 0.18 79.52 2.12 0.59% 0.05%
12 1 1 0.17 80.41 1.76 0.49% 0.01%
Total 38.52%
Scatter 66.67%
Probability 25.68%

I am rather stunned that the the success rate would be as high as 25.68%. The mob would have a slightly lower chance (24.77% each) to be destroyed, placed on the table by the enemy, or into reserves. Though perhaps foolish, this isn't as 'suicidal' a move as most of us suspected. This has no bearing on the rules discussion insofar as whether the possible success rate would be low enough to negate wasting any further energies investigating it.

I suspected the odds would be around a quarter a piece, though the presence of other units and the enemy squad's footprint would skew it further into the 'suicidal' odds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

So, please provide proof for "one scalpel short of a medpack" applying to placing a model via deep strike, while all other restriction placed on movement ever in the entire ruleset of WH40k do not apply.

The BRB explicitly says that an infantry may only move 6"/run 1d6", so why can 'ere we go, GoI or summoning move an infantry model further than 6"?

The BRB explicitly says that infantry may not move through impassible terrain, so why can you use 'ere we go, GoI or summoning to cross such terrain?

The BRB explicitly says that you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, off the table or into impassible terrain/friendly units. So how is it possible to get mishaps at all if you use 'ere we go, GoI or summoning?

The BRB explicitly says that pinned units may not move, so how is it possible to move them via 'ere we go or summoning?

The only way of answering those questions without contradicting yourself is, placing models via deep strike is not bound by any movement restrictions.

The warphead rule unmistakably forces you to place your unit anywhere on the table, using the deep strike rules. While the process is movement, the unit has no choice in moving anwhere else other than the position where the initial model scattered to. So it is not possible to move closer to the enemy unit. The inital model is not moving, it is placed - if you claim placing is bound to "one scalpel short of a medpack", deployment at the beginning of the game is, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jon: Keep in mind that all ork HQs are on larger bases.

I argue against Deep Striking on top of enemy models because to do so would cause them to mishap and not help them get into CC any faster.

A 75% chance of mishapping will not get them there any faster either. Even if you deep strike directly onto a unit, there is a slim chance of scattering out of it, for that matter.

Explicit permission
Explicit permission
Explicit permission

Need anything more? Your questions are THAT facetious