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So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

You have the wrong end of the stick

DS IS movement. Ere we go does not override any movement restrictions, because the initial placement cannot be movement - it is placement, and follows none of the rules. It gives you permission to *place*, not *move*. Two different concepts.

Aat some point, as i stated - DS becomes movment. Where and when that happens is not exactly clear, however if placement and DS scatter WERE movement, that causes issues in and of itself, which have been covered a number of times.

Am I missing something? This is exactly what I have been saying for the last three posts. This is why I have continously stated that "one scalpel short of a medpack" has no effect on "'ere we go!" at all.

You made an assumption about which "side" I was on. If you read back through the posts I have simply corrected issues where people got rules wrong - like saying DS ISNT movement. It IS movement, at some point in the process.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

This post was in response to my posts no even once claiming the opposite. How am I supposed to read this as anything else than you claiming that Grotznik affects the deep striking process?

Dash has claimed the opposite, a number of times. I was pointing out that hanging any claim on DS not benig movement is doomed to failure

Jidmah wrote:So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

Regular movement gives you explicit permission to move in any direction and Mad Dok overrides that...

'ere we go forces you to move via deepstrike and gives you the option of moving anywhere on the board and does not exempt you from MAD DOK's movement restrictions. Mad Dok's rule cannot prevent the deepstrike but can force you to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, which means you can move anywhere on the board given mad dok's rule is satisfied by being moving as fast as possible to the closest enemy. This may result in a tiny little deepstrike if you are already near the closest enemy.

GW made the spirit of the rule official... because they made a rule which cannot be satisfied in all situations by RAW. Which means anyone can argue and not technically be wrong on this because RAW doesn't function by the spirit of the rule when it comes to transports.

Does "One Scalpel Short" allow you to premeasure???? So that to ensure everyone where the closest enemy unit is?

If so, when "'ere we go" goes off with Mad Dok, wouldn't you place Mad Dok down first 1" away from the closest enemy unit (after pre-measure it)??? Then you place the weirdboy by him and the rest of the unit...? Then at that point, you roll for scatter.

Would that work?

Yes, of course it does. How can you move towards the closest unit unless you know, with certainty, what unit that is?

Are there any rules governing which model you have to place first when Deep Striking? As far as I can reckon, I can place any model and arrange the others to have Grotsnik and the Weirdboy on the outside of the formation, not necessarily on the inside. And if I was trying to get Grotsnik into CC first, he would have to be on he outside ring, anyway. But since his Medpak Rule is conferred on the unit he is with, I don't think he would have precedence in placement or movement over any of the other models except as an IC in Assaults. Thoughts?

I premeasure a lot with the blank side of my measuring tape. A piece of unmarked string at least 87 inches long would work as well.

Side note: are Meganobz supposed to have the 1.5 inch bases like Terminators? Because I have the old school 1 inch based metal ones.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, of course it does. How can you move towards the closest unit unless you know, with certainty, what unit that is?

So, you would be okay with me if I did the following:
1) I premeasure to determine the closest enemy unit prior to me DS-ing that unit.
2) Once #1 is determined, then place Mad Dok 1" away from said enemy unit
3) Then, place the wierdboy right by Mad Dok and then encircle the wierdboy with the rest of the squad (as described by DS rules)
4) I may have to shift the whole unit a bit to make sure that Mad Dok is still 1" away and the rest of the models are deployed appropirately (which sorta breaks the rule, but Mad Dok is very specific).
5) Once it's all in placed, I roll for scatter...

Right?

If so... 'tis ain't so bad and it's still very orky.

No, because 4) isnt allowed - it isnt Mad Dok but the whole unit that must get as close, meaning anyone has to be closest.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because 4) isnt allowed - it isnt Mad Dok but the whole unit that must get as close, meaning anyone has to be closest.

OH... I gotcha.

Okay... THANKS.

Jidmah wrote:All I see here is a bunch of made up rules and random interpretation of "spirit of the rule". Not a single actual written rule.

Which I pointed out right at the start.

My take on this isn't RAW. It's a personal opinion on the best way to play it, based on the FAQ ruling for the Mad Dok and transports.

Working things out with your opponent in a friendly match is great, but if I am Deep Striking 10 Meganobz with a Painboy in somebody's backfield at NOVA, I need to have some substantial arguments to back up my actions.

You do not have to place ALL of the models before you Deep Strike. You only place one, then roll for scatter. After that is resolved, then you start placing the rest of the models around the first. That means that I can even place the first model right on top of an enemy model, impassable terrain, and friendly model, but not off the board. There are no mishaps until the scatter and placement is resolved. I also contend that the first placed model does not have to be an IC or Upgrade character, nor do they take precedence over any other model in the order that they are placed.

I have also been thinking about the concept of premeasuring and staying 1 inch away. I don't think the Medpak Rule overrides the Deep Strike condition of placing the initial model where I choose. Since I shouldn't be allowed to premeasure for the Deep Strike, I have to eyeball the distance just like everybody else. The Medpak Rule does not say that the Doktor and his Mob have to move 1 inch away from the nearest enemy to assault, but that they should always move towards it at the fastest speed possible in order to charge. I can charge from 6 inches away. It is also not so overriding and unbending a rule that I have to run towards the enemy in my shooting phase (when this Deep Strike would take place), and I can embark on vehicles if they would allow me to get into CC faster. I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster. If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster.

Actually, no you wouldn't. If getting in a transport was going to get you to assault 'the fastest' then you would be forced to do it and then the transport has the Mad Dok's rule forced upon it by the spirit of the rule. And while you are not forced to RUn, if you do run you are forced to do so by the medpak rule. If movement is forced on you outside movement and assault, then the movement must make every attempt to follow the Mad Dok's rules.

If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Actually, you never get to make the determination, you have zero control over mad dok. your opponent controls everything about Mad dok by the nature of which unit is closest to his units. You simply get to agree or disagree if your opponent's unit that is the closest and the fastest way to get to him to assault.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Deepstriking is movement, so it does effect it. 'Ere we go says 'anywhere' the same way movement says you may move in any direction. Mad Dok's rule controls the movement of both rules.

Mad Dok basically requires you to vet every movement through your opponent because he controls your model by the nature of which unit is closest to your model when he ends his turn. You have no control over Mad Dok and do not get to optionally choose his movement as there is only ever one empirical shortest distance and assault if possible. If I was your opponent, If you made an action I did not agree was the shortest path or assault if possible, I would argue. Any action that breaks the spirit of the rule by you for an advantage gives me ground to contest your action because the FAQ says 'do the best you can fitting with the spirit of the rule.'

You could attempt to ask NOVA for a event specific ruling, but it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

If the advantage is there and it is legal, should I not pursue it? And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate to find out the limitations of this combo. I believe I should only make my Deep Strike movement towards the nearest enemy unit in order to charge it as soon as possible. But where do I place the first model before the scatter is rolled? Does it have to be between my current location and the enemy? Is it on top of the middle of the enemy squad? Can it be on the opposite side of the enemy unit as long as it is closer to them than my present location? I do not think it is as arbitrary as my enemy's opinion.

As far as vetting his every move through my opponent, I do agree somewhat. Movement phase movement, running, and assaulting: yes. I do not agree that the FAQ says that I HAVE to place him in a transport if it would get him closer, it just says that I MAY.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:If the advantage is there and it is legal, should I not pursue it? And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate to find out the limitations of this combo. I believe I should only make my Deep Strike movement towards the nearest enemy unit in order to charge it as soon as possible. But where do I place the first model before the scatter is rolled? Does it have to be between my current location and the enemy? Is it on top of the middle of the enemy squad? Can it be on the opposite side of the enemy unit as long as it is closer to them than my present location? I do not think it is as arbitrary as my enemy's opinion.

As far as vetting his every move through my opponent, I do agree somewhat. Movement phase movement, running, and assaulting: yes. I do not agree that the FAQ says that I HAVE to place him in a transport if it would get him closer, it just says that I MAY.

The issue is there are so many "what if" situations with mad dok and so many interpretations of as fast as possible and assault if possible he becomes a cluster F.

Friendly play expect to do a lot of disagreeing and 4+ roll offs. But for a huge tactic like deep striking mad dok a 4+ could end the game if ruled against you.

For tourneys, it can be even worse especially with no clear FAQ. Ask the TO and get your tactic in writing. If he says it is cool, it is cool for that event but like the other thread showed, people who ask for a ruling pre tourney who seems to manipulate a TO ruling by presenting the question with an agenda and then springs that ruling on opponents may be seen as bad guys... Especially if you are deep striking a deaf star with MANZ on 25mm bases in your opponents backfield using a tactic based off an application of unclear function of a 4th edition special characters rules interacting with 5th edition rules.

It is enough of an argument that it should be avoided because it is not currently fAQed and can swing either way depending on the judge.

nkelsch wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster.

Actually, no you wouldn't. If getting in a transport was going to get you to assault 'the fastest' then you would be forced to do it and then the transport has the Mad Dok's rule forced upon it by the spirit of the rule. And while you are not forced to RUn, if you do run you are forced to do so by the medpak rule. If movement is forced on you outside movement and assault, then the movement must make every attempt to follow the Mad Dok's rules.

I'm fairly certain the rule won't apply while their in a vehicle eh? As the vehicle is not part of his unit and he is not *doing* moving( the vehicle is)

If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Actually, you never get to make the determination, you have zero control over mad dok. your opponent controls everything about Mad dok by the nature of which unit is closest to his units. You simply get to agree or disagree if your opponent's unit that is the closest and the fastest way to get to him to assault.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Deepstriking is movement, so it does effect it. 'Ere we go says 'anywhere' the same way movement says you may move in any direction. Mad Dok's rule controls the movement of both rules.

Mad Dok basically requires you to vet every movement through your opponent because he controls your model by the nature of which unit is closest to your model when he ends his turn. You have no control over Mad Dok and do not get to optionally choose his movement as there is only ever one empirical shortest distance and assault if possible. If I was your opponent, If you made an action I did not agree was the shortest path or assault if possible, I would argue. Any action that breaks the spirit of the rule by you for an advantage gives me ground to contest your action because the FAQ says 'do the best you can fitting with the spirit of the rule.'

You could attempt to ask NOVA for a event specific ruling, but it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

I'm actually torn here, as DS is movement and so his rule gos willy nilly. I'd always as a TO before a tournament about something like this, possibly before on boards, Open club Gaming, ETC

JD - except hte FAQ tells you the vehicle must keep moving.

nkelsch wrote:it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

The same can be said of a non-Ork player who insists that a unit containing Grotsnik and a Weirdboy must attempt suicide at every opportunity.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:It is also not so overriding and unbending a rule that I have to run towards the enemy in my shooting phase (when this Deep Strike would take place)

Not likely to budge an entrenched opponent, but food for thought.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

Regular movement gives you explicit permission to move in any direction and Mad Dok overrides that...

'ere we go forces you to move via deepstrike and gives you the option of moving anywhere on the board and does not exempt you from MAD DOK's movement restrictions. Mad Dok's rule cannot prevent the deepstrike but can force you to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, which means you can move anywhere on the board given mad dok's rule is satisfied by being moving as fast as possible to the closest enemy. This may result in a tiny little deepstrike if you are already near the closest enemy.

GW made the spirit of the rule official... because they made a rule which cannot be satisfied in all situations by RAW. Which means anyone can argue and not technically be wrong on this because RAW doesn't function by the spirit of the rule when it comes to transports.

Unless you can quote even a single rule about:

- Placing a model being restricted by movement rules
- "The spirit of the rule" applying to anything other than transports

all of this is nowhere even near RAW, and thus, wrong. So please quit telling people this is the correct way to play it, because, outside of house rules, it is not.

Jidmah wrote:
Unless you can quote even a single rule about:

- Placing a model being restricted by movement rules
- "The spirit of the rule" applying to anything other than transports

all of this is nowhere even near RAW, and thus, wrong. So please quit telling people this is the correct way to play it, because, outside of house rules, it is not.

The quote in the FAQ applies to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING other than transports... Basically the spirit of the rule applies to everything which is why transports are impacted. There are so many kinds of movements they would have to write a FAQ 10 pages log to impact all the places in the game where movement can happen and how Mad Dok's rule potentially interacts with it.

Deepstrike is movement, parsing the word placement doesn't make it not movement.

If you think deepstriking your rogue trader MANZ is legal, then ask your TO. If you plan to do it, get clarification first because basically as fast as possible and assault if possible is always going to be an argument.

And besides... Mad Dok with MANZ sucks... It is quite possibly the worst deathstar ever. They are too slow and can easily be lead off target. Deepstrike means they can't assault which gives your opponent a full turn to reposition to drag your MANZ to the corner of the board to sit there and do nothing because remember... your opponent has 100% control over your unit. If he puts a skimmer one millimeter closer than the unit you wanted to wreck, your unit goes to oblivion. The correct way to use MANZ and dok is go get cybork then let the MANZ do their own thing and put doc somewhere else... like FNP kommandos.

Orks FAQ wrote:Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved normally? (p59)

A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will not prevent him from charging that turn and will also get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as soon as possible.

The FAQ on Grotsnik's movement applies to transports and transports alone. The spirit of the rule is being extended to say that you aren't allowed to use transports to leash Grotsnik when he's going to charge something you'd rather he didn't, and that Grotsnik makes drivers step on it until he's got something to duff. Without something like a 'Grotsnik must always Death or Glory! when tankshocked' rule, you can't really say the spirit of the rules justify a 'Grotsnik must force a Weirdboy to attempt mass suicide whenever possible' interpretation.

It's not as if an Ork player with a MANZstar in charge range is going to seek to deny them a charge by aiming for EWG, nor is likely to use it when it happens to tellyport them to a position well out of next turn's charge range.

It's a safe bet the next Orkdex will give MANZ a Painboy and Cybork option, and maybe even Painbosses, and Grotsnik will have generic Rage, so by then the dispute will be moot

lindsay40k wrote:The same can be said of a non-Ork player who insists that a unit containing Grotsnik and a Weirdboy must attempt suicide at every opportunity.

For what it's worth, I am an Ork player... and I don't know anyone else who is, so the only person who would be suffering from my interpretation of the rules here is me.

Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

lindsay40k wrote:Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

I am nothing but an ork player with tens of thousands of ork points and own almost every ork model ever produced by GW armorcast and forgeworld.

I didn't say anything about fluff and I don't really care about your slapstick humor.

I do care about people abusing 25mm meganobz for advantage.
I do care about people using the already undefinable MAD dok rule in a way not intended by the rule writers and then claiming RAW RAW RAW where there is none due to the vauge intent of the rule and the conflict in editions due to the rule.
I do care about people putting forth false tactics out there usually by people who have never even used Mad Dok and the only way Mad Dok is as effective as people claim is by cheating either by intentionally disregarding the medpack rule or applying a liberally advantagous application to it. Most battle reports I have seen where mad Dok is used, he makes illegal movements.

Mad Dok is all but unuseable when attached to Meganobz against a skilled opponent who is fully aware how Mad Dok's rules are supposed to be played. He is a devastating wrecking ball when played against someone who assumes dok has simple rage or players simply assume the ork player is playing the rules correct.

If someone showed up with the intent to deepstrike 25mm MANZ with a dok and weirdboy I would immediately be on guard knowing this opponent was going to be constantly trying to misapply or fight about Mad Dok's rules. Building an army to exploit an unFAQed, unclear rule. This is the same 'Mad dok can give Kanz cybork because nothing says they can't and the FAQ assumes vehicles cannot be cyborked but the answer never confirms it.'

If you want to do it, prepare for fights, you better be damn precice in the rest of your movement (including your opponent kiting your models away from where you want them) and get your tactic vetted before showing up at a tourney. Personally, I don't need to win that way and there are plenty of clear ways to play the ork army where you don't need to take unclear parts of the rulebase to win more games.

GW declared RAI in their effect when applying Dok's movement restrictions. "the spirit of the rule" explicitly means any attempt to argue RAW instantly is wrong for Mad Dok. If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

I asked about the bases because those are the only ones I've ever had. If I need to update them, it would change my calculations on surviving if the first model was placed in base to base contact before scattering, or 1 inch away, or wherever. That 'wherever' is the crux of my original post, to know what I CAN do if the situation presents itself. Hey man, I just looked into using Ork combos I've never seen and wanted to know what others have found out. Most of the posts I have read here against applying a liberal interpretation of the abilities of this combo are opinions and off topic. They address informing the TO, being knowledgeable of the risks of having him attached to a unit, to not be sneaky, etc. None of these discussions has anything to do with what I want to know: if I put this Painboy with a Weirdboy, where would they Deep Strike? Anyone?

And I just thought of the Weirdboy ability to Reroll on their Chart. If the movement phase left the Doktor's unit within assault range and I roll a 5 at the beginning of the shooting phase (and therefore not being able to assault this turn), would I HAVE to make a reroll in an attempt to remain and charge?

Ghenghis Jon wrote: if I put this Painboy with a Weirdboy, where would they Deep Strike? Anyone?

That's been answered with a fairly conclusive 'The rules don't really cover it.'

You're not going to get a definitive answer on this one. You'll need to discuss it with your opponent or the TO before the game if you are intending to run this combo.

nkelsch wrote:If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

Well no, I'd just like them to FAQ his rules in relation to the three types of movement he could quite conceivably undertake in a 1750 battle with a straight Codex army; walking, riding and EWG'ing. Walking is pretty clear from the rule itself (though to my understanding the issue of running being an option or compulsory is open), riding is clearly defined, and EWG is undefined. There's any number of obscure and unlikely things that could happen in, say, Apocalypse that this FAQ might leave open - your opponent lets you and your Ultramarine partner buddy up units, how does Gate of Infinity work? - but that doesn't make it unreasonable or far-fetched to expect that the Ork Codex be patched to at least work with itself.

Failing that, rewrite him to have generic Rage and give that rule a comprehensive FAQ'ing.