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Doc Grotsnik and a Wierdboy are in the same unit. The Wierdboy rolls a 5 on his psychic chart, ''Ere we go!" and teleports the unit using the depstrike rules . . . where? Do I decide where to Deep Strike the unit? Or does the Good Doctor's Special Rule, "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack", take over and put the Deep Striking unit 1" away from the closest enemy unit? If so, is he the first model placed? If not, can I set the Strike further away from the enemy unit and just place him closest to that unit? Any ideas where to start with this one?

Can you even have them both in the same unit?

I thought it was 1 IC per squad?

There are no limits on number of IC's attached to a squad.

I would say deepstriking is different than "normal movement", so you would deepstrike whereever you want. But then, in the next movement phase "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" kicks in...

The closest you will get to a ruling on this is the vehicle clarification from the Ork FAQ:

Ork FAQ wrote:
Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him
closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved
normally? (p59)
A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will
not prevent him from charging that turn and will also
get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving
normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the
vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as
fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow
Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as
soon as possible

In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I don't think so. "One scalpel short of a medpack" doesn't affect deep strike any more than rage does (as in Death Company deep striking).

Jidmah wrote:Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I would take 'as close as possible' to mean 'as close as possible' rather than 'on top of'... but YMMV, obviously.

Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

This is one of the few rules which has a 'spirit of the rule' which cannot be parsed.

As close as possible would mean the unit would need to deepstrike 1" away from people, and would need to be the closest unit to where mad dok is at this time, you don't get to choose a new unit on the other side of the board.

Or don't do it because weirdboyz suck and deepstriking the grot would not be all that useful and it is a rules argument.

Yes, but if we want to follow spirit of the rules, weirdboys are not supposed to be fully in control of their powers. Them deepstriking wherever you choose to place them could represent their tenuous hold of their psychic powers.

I have run a variation of this combo with a unit of 'ard boys. Generally speaking, I wanted Dok and Zogwort in the thick of things as quickly as possible. So, I wanted to deepstrike as close as possible. However, this did not mean I set myself up for failure and placd them 1" away from the nearest unit.

Think about this then:
If a weirdboy, Dok, and a squad are in CC with another unit and you roll 'ere we go, where are you supposed to place the unit? By your logic, I should barely move and hope for the best.

insaniak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I would take 'as close as possible' to mean 'as close as possible' rather than 'on top of'... but YMMV, obviously.

Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed. Trying to get the complete deep strike formation as close as possible would require you to place all models before scattering, which is against the deep strike rules. So either you deepstrike wherever you want, or you mishap automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed

Depending on the size of the squad.

Good grief, if the deepstrike has to be pointblank, then I suppose if he arrived from reserve it'd have to be from the point closest to an enemy model a well!

As it is, Medpack does not tell you anything about where you have to deploy from reserve, so there's no strong argument IMO for not allowing you to drop wherever you like.

(Hmm... Green Tide + Grotsnik + Zogwort... tempting!)

rigeld2 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed

Depending on the size of the squad.

Which would any time except when you have exactly six or less models left, including the two ICs who both miraculously survived up until now, your opponent doesn't have any other models close enough and you roll a hit or a scatter not pointing towards the enemy unit at all. Note that I made up the 1", a true "as close as possible" would force you to auto-mishap due to deep striking within 1" of an enemy unit.

No one can argue that the "spirit of the rule" is supposed to be Grotznik automatically killing himself when with a weirdboy unless the stars align.

lindsay40k wrote:(Hmm... Green Tide + Grotsnik + Zogwort... tempting!)

Yeah, I ran that quite a few times. 30 'ardy boyz up front with 2-4 more mobs of 30 boys, some Lootas, and a few kannons and zzap guns in the rear.

Of course if I did it again, I would probably do nobs with Dok and Zog so they stay fearless and keep on running.

I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

Is deep striking even movement?

Isn't it a form of deployment?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

None of this has any effect on deep strike, does it? So, for the reason of deepstrike, why is one "scalpel short of a medpack" different from rage in any way? As the singular model has no choice in movement in either case, none of your points add anything to the argument. Rage also isn't in the ork codex and has a different name if you want to add more random nitpicks.

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

Green is Best! wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

very carefully... though as its template i'd thinnk as long as the tmeplate hit or didn't scatter you'd just piel everythign in a way it fit ... though I could be wrong

to the OP I'd think you deepstrike where you want then have to try to get at the closest unit

Green is Best! wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

I've seen 10" pieplates miss and not hit anything. Can't be that hard

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed. Trying to get the complete deep strike formation as close as possible would require you to place all models before scattering, which is against the deep strike rules. So either you deepstrike wherever you want, or you mishap automatically.

Are you deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, or genuinely missing the point?

There is no rule that covers this situation. I suggested a 'fix' in line with the one clarification that comes close to the situation. Exactly how that is interpreted (or whether to use it at all) is completely up to the players concerned... but for myself, I would be deep striking the unit as close as possible. Yes, that would mean placing the initial model just over an inch away, and yes, that may trigger a mishap if the unit is too large and doesn't scatter. You could as easily agree to place him far enough away that the unit would fit around... you don't have to place the rest of the unit to determine that, it's generally fairly easy to eyeball how much room the unit is going to take up.

Or, you could just let him Deep Strike wherever you want. My suggestion was just that, in line with what GW have indicated the spirit of the rule to be.

The spirit of the rule is that he wouldn't embark on a vehicle if it doesn't get him closer, unlike raging units who stay put until their transport drops them and then never embark again.

Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all. Otherwise Grotznik couldn't choose freely where he enters the table when arriving from reserves, but obviously nobody plays that way to meet a random interpretation of a "spirit of the rule" given in an entirely different context. Snikrot ambushing with Grotznik has become a common appearance and nobody ambushes at the position of the enemy unit closest to any table edge. And nobody deploys Grotznik as close to the enemy as possible when simply putting him on the table during deployment.

There is a simple rule that covers this situation. It does not apply, because deployment is not movement.

Couldn't have put it better, Jidmah.

Yes, when coming from reserve, I try to angle him so that he doesn't have to pass through terrain. Putting him with Snikrot is an interesting idea as well.

Pg 95, par 2, line 1, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice." Unless someone can find otherwise, I reckon I can Deep strike as I please. Thanks for the input!

Jidmah wrote:The spirit of the rule is that he wouldn't embark on a vehicle if it doesn't get him closer, unlike raging units who stay put until their transport drops them and then never embark again.

Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all. Otherwise Grotznik couldn't choose freely where he enters the table when arriving from reserves, but obviously nobody plays that way to meet a random interpretation of a "spirit of the rule" given in an entirely different context. Snikrot ambushing with Grotznik has become a common appearance and nobody ambushes at the position of the enemy unit closest to any table edge. And nobody deploys Grotznik as close to the enemy as possible when simply putting him on the table during deployment.

There is a simple rule that covers this situation. It does not apply, because deployment is not movement.

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

Chrysis wrote:

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

So Dok + Snikrot means he can come on anywhere but once he is on he is stuck moving toward the closest enemy.

'ere we go: The weirdboy closes his eyes tight and, in a storm of green light, teleports his unit to another part of the battlefield. The weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the board as per the Deep Strike rules. This power must be used even if enemy models are in base contact if so the enemy models stay in place.

No remark of being deployed from reserves so no exemption from other rules. 'in the spirit of the rule' not only do they need to deepstrike as close to an enemy unit as possible, but they probably need to deepstrike to the closest unit, not simply close to any unit. 'the spirit of the rule' means an attempt to follow the rule needs to be done, not simply parsing the RAW.

Jidmah wrote:Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all.

Of course it does. His rule is that he has to move towards the closest enemy. In that spirit, it's logical to assume that anything that moves him around the table should follow that same restriction, whether it specifies that it counts as his movement or not.

Again, I'm not saying that this is an iron clad rules argument... just that it's the interpretation that in my opinion fits best with the rule as presented, and with the ruling made on transports. You're perfectly free to play it differently if you disagree.

It's really not like you are going to deep-strike a mob of FNP/5++ combat experts somewhere in your back field. You'll want to deep strike grotznik somewhere within 12" of an enemy unit anyways, simply to charge them next turn.

Also, IMO forcing an increased chance of mishaps on somebody who obviously is playing a totally unusual combination of HQs for fun has nothing to do with any spirit concerning WH40k, see the most important rule.

nkelsch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

So Dok + Snikrot means he can come on anywhere but once he is on he is stuck moving toward the closest enemy.

'ere we go: The weirdboy closes his eyes tight and, in a storm of green light, teleports his unit to another part of the battlefield. The weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the board as per the Deep Strike rules. This power must be used even if enemy models are in base contact if so the enemy models stay in place.

No remark of being deployed from reserves so no exemption from other rules. 'in the spirit of the rule' not only do they need to deepstrike as close to an enemy unit as possible, but they probably need to deepstrike to the closest unit, not simply close to any unit. 'the spirit of the rule' means an attempt to follow the rule needs to be done, not simply parsing the RAW.

The spirit of the rule is that Grotsnik is bloodthirsty, not suicidal. TBH, any kind of attempt to fudge this into 'you've got to DS into dangerous proximity to an enemy unit' smacks of TFG. DS is deployment, not movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so those falling into the 'DS the unit close to an enemy unit' interpretation, how close? Can I place them 13" away, assert they're as close as possible, and then roll a D6 to settle it when you disagree? If it's a set distance (not mentioned int he rule itself) they have to land, this is going to involve premeasuring (which is something that hardly ever happens in 40K with a few very clear exceptions), so does the first member of the unit get to pre-measure their 1", or do you have to somehow work out how far away to premeasure him so that the outer ring of unit members is 1" away (which due to irregular ring size will require tight fractions of inches on units more than six strong)?

Or is the fudging unworkable in practice, and DS as normal without restriction is the only solution that's going to work?