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Actually the wording of it isn't that at the end of his movement if he is out of coherency, it is by moving out of coherency. This I believe is where the thought of him being allowed to move his full distance comes from. ex. IC and Unit start moving, IC moves 2.01" away from unit and continues his move, as he is no longer within coherency he is no longer part of the combined unit therefore no other model to slow him down. Now even with that line of thought if for some reason he ends up within coherency with the same unit again (as all movement theoretically happens at the same time) he hasn't left the unit so he should have been limited to the slowest model.

Saiisil wrote:Actually the wording of it isn't that at the end of his movement if he is out of coherency, it is by moving out of coherency.

Which comes to the same thing. You don't determine that the unit is out of coherency while they are moving... that would be pointless, since the unit is always going to have broken coherency after you move the first model. Instead, as per the Unit Coherency rules on page 12 of the rulebook, coherency applies after the unit has moved. During the unit's movement, you would obviously be checking that each model is finishing his movement in coherency, but you're not checking for the unit to be in coherency at this point, you're just checking where the models are finishing their movement.

If you move the unit and the IC in opposite directions, obviously you're going to know that he's going to be out of coherency after the unit has finished their movement... but he's not actually out of coherency until that movement is completed. There simply is no opportunity to determine that he has left the unit before that movement is complete.

DeathReaper wrote:
The combined unit moves at the slowest speed, since the IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency, he is allowed to use whatever form of movement he is capable of using.

And when do you determine if he's out of coherency?

hint: It's not while he's moving. And since you cannot determine coherency until the end of the movement phase, the IC may not use his own (faster) movement during the movement phase.

DR - you only check for coherency when you have FINISHED moving. Meaning he is only out of coherency when he has finished his move, meaning he cannot move away at full speed. Otherwise anytime you move the IC more than 2" away he has left the unit - which is obviously an absurd position to take,

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - you only check for coherency when you have FINISHED moving. Meaning he is only out of coherency when he has finished his move, meaning he cannot move away at full speed. Otherwise anytime you move the IC more than 2" away he has left the unit - which is obviously an absurd position to take,

Incoming from DR,

"whilst they stay together"

And together means as one unit - similar to "with" for GoI. They're one unit till the end of the phase.

I think the next two sentences in the IC joining a unit rules are important to possibly bring more clarity to the situation, or at the very least clarify something for me.

BRB wrote:If the character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

This may just be me here, but aren't those two statements contradictory? How can an IC end his move within more than one unit in the first place if the IC does not intend to join one of said units? Would not the IC have to move in a way so that it is within 2" of the unit it will be joining, while at the same time remaining more than 2" away from units that it does not intend to join as per the second sentence? I cannot for the life figure out how these two sentences can work together as they seem mutually exclusive of one another as an IC cannot be within a 2" of a unit it is not joining or cannot join while at the same time somehow being within 2" two units of which one by manner of the IC rules it cannot join as an IC can only be joined to one unit at a time. So how could the first sentence even happen as the IC must remain more than 2" away from a unit it is not joining by the end of the Movement phase?

Well, during a large assault an IC could easily end up within 2" of more than one unit for one possibility.



Sliggoth

Irrelevant in assault, as you only join / leave during the movement phase, and cannot join / leave while locked in combat....

I enjoy overcomplicating things, so I thought I would here.

What if our character is on a bike/jetbike and turbo-boosts into coherency with some other unit? The way I read it I think his unit can assault but he can't? Maybe?

On a side note, if a character with a jetbike turbo-boosts 18" and joins an infantry squad that was within 6" of where he started his turbo-boost after that squad has moved, it seems like he doesn't get his cover save. Is this right?

No, they cannot assault. If a member of the unit cannot assault, the unit cannot assault.

That is correct. You must end up more than 18" away from where you started; it is one of the few areas where the rules care about displacement.

Pg 48 BRB First Bullet:

'In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase. If the character is within 2" of more than one unit and the end of the Movement phase, the player must declare[i] which unit it is joining. If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain [i]more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement Phase. This is to make clear to the opponent if the character has joined the unit or not.'

Seems pretty straightfoward to me. If an IC is within 2" coherency of a friendly unit at the end of the movement phase, he joins the unit. If there's more than one unit within 2" you must declare which unit he is in. If the IC doesn't want to join a unit he has to stay out of coherency with that unit.

If he doesn't want to be in a unit he has to stay out of coherency. In doing so the opponent can shoot at him knowing that the IC isn't apart of any squad.

Pg 48 3rd Bullet:

While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

Pg 48. 4th Bullet:

An independent character can leave a unit during the movment phase by moving out of coherency with it.

The independent character must obey coherency rules while he's apart of a unit and thus move and assault at the speed of the slowest model. However, if the IC wants to leave the unit all he has to do is stay out of coherency, regardless of how far he can move, during the movement phase, just as long as its out of coherency with the unit he's leaving.

...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

Question. What if you have an IC with a unit that is Slow and Purposeful, and you roll a 1" movement? If the IC wants to leave the unit he can only move 1".

Then he cant leave the unit. Same as if you're in terrain and roll a double 1, you're not leaving your unit.

Actually, I just realized he could either stay still (moving 0") or he could move 1" in the opposite direction.

He would still be within 2", as the unit will also only be able to move 1"

nosferatu1001 wrote:...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

BRB, Pg. 47 under Character Types, First Bullet:

Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight units in their own right. One of the mose useful abilities of independent characters is to join other units in battle, so that they can move in to bolster the battle line where the fighting is fiercest. If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate Codex, and its rules will also clearly state that the model is an independent character. Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters.

Since independent characters are one model, as such they do no need check coherency because they're one model. Even though the independent character has joined a unit, they are still their own unit, which means the independent character can move out of coherency (i.e leaving the unit) independently regardless of the unit because it is an independent unit and because it is an independent unit it does not have to check for coherency. As long as the independent character stays out of coherency from the unit its leaving, it can move its full distance.

So your above example is moot because an independent character is ONE model.

Actually Nos, if the IC isn't surrounded or in b2b contact with the rest of the unit, he could move 1" the opposite way, and end up more than 2" away.

Page 48 AND 49 disagree with you - "normal member of the unit", page 49.

While joined to a unit they are NOT a separate unit. this is why you are specifically told on page 49 that they are a separate unit in CC, and only while you resolve attacks

So no, you STILL check coherency with ICs.

Happyjew wrote:Actually Nos, if the IC isn't surrounded or in b2b contact with the rest of the unit, he could move 1" the opposite way, and end up more than 2" away.

Yeah, so long as he's on the edge of the unit and not currently in base contact with a model from that unit, him moving 1" one way and the unit moving 1" the other way would put him more than 2" away.

StormForged wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

BRB, Pg. 47 under Character Types, First Bullet:

Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight units in their own right. One of the mose useful abilities of independent characters is to join other units in battle, so that they can move in to bolster the battle line where the fighting is fiercest. If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate Codex, and its rules will also clearly state that the model is an independent character. Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters.

Since independent characters are one model, as such they do no need check coherency because they're one model. Even though the independent character has joined a unit, they are still their own unit, which means the independent character can move out of coherency (i.e leaving the unit) independently regardless of the unit because it is an independent unit and because it is an independent unit it does not have to check for coherency. As long as the independent character stays out of coherency from the unit its leaving, it can move its full distance.

A unit must move as slow as the slowest member.
The IC is part of the unit (he joined the unit).
He is part of the unit until he moves out of coherency, which is checked at the end of the movement phase.
Since he is a member of the unit during the movement phase, he cannot move faster than the slowest member of the unit he joined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 48 AND 49 disagree with you - "normal member of the unit", page 49.

While joined to a unit they are NOT a separate unit. this is why you are specifically told on page 49 that they are a separate unit in CC, and only while you resolve attacks

So no, you STILL check coherency with ICs.

Independent Character ARE always an individual unit. They have their own statline, price, and abilities. Joining a squad is one of thier abilities, it does not erase their 'independent character' special rules.

The only way you cannot target an independent character is shooting at him in a unit because that is the ability of joining a squad. You can single him out in close combat because he's an independent unit.

Only if they're apart of the unit. Independent characters can still move their full distance in the movement phase while leaving a unit because they are a one model unit that does not need to check unit coherency because its one model. If they move outside of coherency their not apart of the unit anymore. Regardless of how far they move, Independent characters can leave a unit as long as their out of coherency of that unit.

Simple. As. That.

IC /= always their own unit. For a start page 49 disagrees with you most vehemently, in the entirety

Arguing they are still a separate unit while joined to another unit has been tried in the past. It isnt true. Do a search before starting this again
Simple. As. That.

StormForged wrote: Regardless of how far they move, Independent characters can leave a unit as long as their out of coherency of that unit.

Even if I agree with everything else you've posted (which I don't) - you start in coherency. Since you're in coherency, you are part of the unit. You can only move as fast as the slowest model in the unit.

Simple. As. That. (to use your language)

I'm tired of arguing about this grey area.

StormForged wrote:Since the independent character is an independent unit it can move its full distance and check for coherency.

So false it hurts. Citation needed.

So you can move your full distance every single turn, zipping around the unit you're joined with?

StormForged wrote:I'm tired of arguing about this grey area.

It isnt a grey area.

Seriously - do some research on this. Its a tired, tired argument. If you REALLY want the IC to ALWAYS be their own unit, then i am going to declare them as the target of my shooting.