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In the context "Their" is referring to both the IC and the unit, since the IC has to be "within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC; and neither of them are truly the unit joining the IC, they are still the IC joining the unit.

The first is for the Unit to move up and the IC to either not move during the movement phase, or for the player to declare the IC as then not moving, this would have the IC "moving" to join in that he was able to move and chose not to; thus joining the unit.

The second is for the unit to move up, and then the IC move but remains in coherency(the IC may move at whatever speed he can individually move at during this movement as he is still not a part of the unit yet).

There is sort of a third Option, wherein you move 2 units up to within 2" of the IC, then at the end of the movement phase, he must decide which unit to join.

Finally the rules are fairly clear if you do not intend an IC to join a unit he must be more than 2" away from any units, and if he moves first your unit cannot end within 2" of him(to avoid confusion, and because units do not join ICs).

If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

It is irrelevant. Not because it doesn't pertain to the discussion, but because the rule detailing a unit embarking into a transport and joining the already embarked IC is a specific rule for that instance. No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

Brother Ramses wrote:It is irrelevant.

I think I mentioned that.

Brother Ramses wrote:No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

Until now no one included the part in bold. I kept seeing "That cannot happen" or some variation thereof.

It actually seems that it can be said to happen, just in a manner that does not help assaults.

Brother Ramses wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

It is irrelevant. Not because it doesn't pertain to the discussion, but because the rule detailing a unit embarking into a transport and joining the already embarked IC is a specific rule for that instance. No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

In Kirsanth's defence he is correcting me on a technicality; which I wholly endorse. As Bureaucrat 1.0 says "You are Technically correct correct, which is the best kind of correct!"

Although Ramses(and Kirsanth) are also technically correct that it is irrelevant to this discussion; but then my statement had no qualifiers, merely that there were only 2 ways(plus a third), and although I did not say "only" 2 ways, the authoritative tone of my post did indicate that that was my meaning.
So; Good RC Kirsanth!

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

Exactly.

The rule tells you specifically, that the IC HAS to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. Those are the specific conditions. There is no permission for a unit to move within 2" of a friendly IC at the end of their Movement phase and force him to join. This isn't a blind 2" check at the end of their Movement phase to determine if the IC is joined to a unit. You have to follow the rules for joining an IC to a unit and it does not include units moving to within 2" of a friendly IC.

Please quote the page number and exact rule that says you must stay more than 2" away from an IC.

jbunny wrote:Please quote the page number and exact rule that says you must stay more than 2" away from an IC.

Page 48. . ."If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

Not at the end of any particular move in that phase.

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.

It not wrong if you actually read the whole rule.

The IC moving then the unit moving to be within 2" is the IC moving so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement.

After all units involved have moved (Known as "the end of their Movement phase") if the IC is within 2" (Known as "an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit") then he joins said unit.

So if the IC moved and, at the end of their movement phase, he will join that unit as per the rules.

"the end of their movement phase" can only mean the players movement phase, (It may mean all units involved, but each unit does not have their own movement phase) Though the rule still works as I have shown even if you count each unit to have its own movement phase, since they say their movement phase, they can only be referencing both units movement.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.

It not wrong if you actually read the whole rule.

The IC moving then the unit moving to be within 2" is the IC moving so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement.

After all units involved have moved (Known as "the end of their Movement phase") if the IC is within 2" (Known as "an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit") then he joins said unit.

So if the IC moved and, at the end of their movement phase, he will join that unit as per the rules.

"the end of their movement phase" can only mean the players movement phase, (It may mean all units involved, but each unit does not have their own movement phase) Though the rule still works as I have shown even if you count each unit to have its own movement phase, since they say their movement phase, they can only be referencing both units movement.

It is wrong, if you actually read the whole rule: "The IC simply has to move so that he is within 2 at the end of their movement phase(paraphrased, but only leaving out some minor details that do not change the sentence)" this Plainly states the IC must move to join the unit.

The next bit requires that the IC is within 2" of multiple units at the end of the movement phase; which I covered as Option 3 for a unit joining the character: it requires 2 units.

The last of the Rules states that all units must remain more than 2" from any IC that does not wish to join them.

When you're parsing sentences there are no minor details and paraphrasing is unacceptable. Every word in its exact order with the punctuation shown in its exact place is needed. The changing of even the most "minor" of wording/punctuation can change the entire meaning of the sentence. So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Right as long as the IC moves, and he is within 2" of the unit he is joining at the end of their movement phase, he joins them.

You check to see if he is in range at the end of the movement phase, not beforehand, so as long as he is within 2" at that point, and has moved, the order of operations are inconsequential.

*throws wrench*

Can anyone explain to me what the phrase "... and vice versa" in the last bullet of those IC rules means?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Except, you know, referencing the rules in the rulebook.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:When you're parsing sentences there are no minor details and paraphrasing is unacceptable. Every word in its exact order with the punctuation shown in its exact place is needed. The changing of even the most "minor" of wording/punctuation can change the entire meaning of the sentence. So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Ok; The list of Omitted words(in order): In order to join a unit, an, coherency distance of a friendly unit.

So I will add those words to the sentence:
"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase"

That does not at all change the meaning that the IC must move to join the unit(And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent; making it the IC & Their movement phase; but of course we all know models do not have their own phases).

And, of course, as rigeld2 pointed out anyone with the BRB can verify the accuracy of my statement, and we would know that that is the book that is to be used as it and the Page reference has be cited earlier in this thread(possibly a number of times).

Kommissar Kel wrote:And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent

A colloquialism I have always despised and questioned the validity of.
Questionable that it is used as such in any case.

somerandomdude wrote:*throws wrench*

Can anyone explain to me what the phrase "... and vice versa" in the last bullet of those IC rules means?

Good Catch.

That means if an IC, that has gone to ground, is joined by a unit that has not, the unit immediately goes to ground as well.

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent

A colloquialism I have always despised and questioned the validity of.
Questionable that it is used as such in any case.

How else do you refer to a gender-indeterminate unknown?

I mean we could follow Futurama and refer instead to "shkle" instead of "he" or "she," and "shklim" or "shkler" instead of "him" or "her"?

we instead only have They, them, and their

Portugal Jones wrote:Wasn't this off of Stelek's blog where he was talking about his wonderfully clever, if awfully rules ambiguous, slingshotting strategy?

Shocking...

somerandomdude makes an interesting point. The last bullet point states that if an IC joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediately goes to ground as well, and vice versa.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an IC has gone to ground, he cannot move. If he cannot move, he cannot move to be within 2" of a unit, however, they would still be able to move up to the IC and he could join, although the unit would immediately go to ground as well.

Another interesting note is that with the exception of "he is within" all other references to the IC is "it" i.e. "which unit it is joining", it must remain more than 2" away"

The simple fact that the check for whether or not he is joined is simply 'is he in coherency at the end of the phase?' is going to mean that people will take the suggested 'requirement' of the IC doing the moving as not really being that important.

Going back and referencing which unit actually moved is uneccessary. He's within 2", therefore he is joined to the unit. Keeps it simple.

Note that this interpretation still doesn't allow the 'slingshot' maneouvre that prompted this discussion in the first place. If he finishes the phase in coherency with the unit he started the phase with, he never left them and so would have had to move at the same rate as them.

insaniak wrote:The simple fact that the check for whether or not he is joined is simply 'is he in coherency at the end of the phase?' is going to mean that people will take the suggested 'requirement' of the IC doing the moving as not really being that important.

Going back and referencing which unit actually moved is uneccessary. He's within 2", therefore he is joined to the unit. Keeps it simple.

Note that this interpretation still doesn't allow the 'slingshot' maneouvre that prompted this discussion in the first place. If he finishes the phase in coherency with the unit he started the phase with, he never left them and so would have had to move at the same rate as them.

This is how I and every one I have played with does it. And, if an IC finishes a move within 2", he has technically joined that unit whether you say so or not. (As the brb says if he is not joining a unit, you need to keep the unit more than 2" away). If it seems like it is remotely going to be an issue, (and it is not my army), I would ask at the end of their movement phase what is going on.

Discussing the meaning of "is" and its tense, while interesting, doesnt really matter.

We need to consider where the IC is located *at the end of its movement phase*.





The IC has to move so that he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.




Please note that there is a movement phase for a player, not for each individual unit. So it does not matter whether their refers to the IC, the unit, or both. The time that we perform the check is the same in any case.


This means that an IC certainly can move to a random point on the table, and then be joined to a unit that then later in the same movement phase moves to within 2" of the IC.

The IC has to move, and it has to move to a point that is within 2" when the movement phase ends.


Sliggoth

He IS, not he WILL BE.

If he moves to a space that WILL BE within 2", he has not moved to a place that IS

nosferatu1001 wrote:He IS, not he WILL BE.

If he moves to a space that WILL BE within 2", he has not moved to a place that IS

So, you're just claiming this is a matter of timing? This is obviously solved by just moving your ICs last (if they are not already attached to a unit).

And, you are also saying that if a unit moves to within 2" of an IC, the IC cannot join unless he moves at least a fraction of an inch?

@Nos, I've read your posts, and you are actually one of the few people here who seem to grasp the rules. So I'm asking YOU personally, to explain the last bullet point to me. Specifically the vice versa portion. If an IC has gone to ground, he cannot do anything until the end of his next turn (with some exceptions). If he cannot move, than according to you he cannot join a unit, but the last bullet point says that he can join a unit, but the unit immediately goes to ground as well. Thoughts? (And sorry if I come off as an ... (removed as it is a dirty word...)

GW dont actually know their own rules?

Green - given the first requirement for an IC joining is tht THEY move, then yes thats exactly what im saying.

ANd yes, it is a matter of timing - the IC MUST MOVE to be within 2" of the unit, meaning the bounce trick cannot work from the same unit - you leave the unit, meaning the unit must stay 2" away (if you want to use your movement) or you never leave, meaning you cannot use your own movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:GW dont actually know their own rules?

.

Or it could be that people over read, over lawyer things to the point that the game completely breaks.

So you dont think the shuffle move is itself a sign of a broken game?