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you can only use the shuffle move if the IC is not a part of the unit to begin with, I do not see the issue with using a move like that.

Are you talking about IC leaves unit, moves 8" than rejoins unit? if so yes, that is broken, since a) he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and b) you check for coherency at the end of the movement phase. As it is since "their" is open to interpretation, moving an IC then moving another unit so hte IC is within 2" to have the IC join, is not necessarily against the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you dont think the shuffle move is itself a sign of a broken game?

Shuffle Move - IC in back Jumps ahead moving 12" and reattaching to the same unit? That is not broken. It is illegal.

IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

Saying that an IC cannot join a unit unless it moves, and it has to move last, is over reading the rules, and over lawyering the rules. Esp since the best arguement agaisnt the "Vice Versa" clause is well "GW does not know their own rules."

I should have clarified.

I am talking about an IC that is not attached to a unit using his movement to be the lead model in a unit and attaching, thus extending their assault range.

Happyjew wrote:Are you talking about IC leaves unit, moves 8" than rejoins unit? if so yes, that is broken.

It is actually against the rules to try to do that.

If the IC leaves unit and moves 8" he can not rejoin the unit in the same phase, since the unit has to move at the speed of the slowest model.

jbunny wrote:IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

This is actually legal, since the IC is only bound by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

DeathReaper wrote:

jbunny wrote:IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

This is actually legal, since the IC is only bound by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

No, they were together when the unit was chosen to move. So he's restricted until he breaks coherence. He's only not together with the unit after the end of the movement phase.

He is only restricted by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

If the IC is leaving the unit, they are not staying together and can use whatever normal movement speed he is capable of using.

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

So the IC can use his Jump Pack as long as the unit does not "stay together" because they only move "at the speed of the slowest model while the stay together"

They stay together until the end of the movement phase. It does not say "while they intend to stay together". They stay together until after all moves have been made.

as jbunny said. "stay together" means while they're a single unit. They're a single unit until the end of the movement phase.

The while they stay together clause lets the IC use his movement when he is moving away from the unit.

No, the "while they stay together" clause clarifies that he can use his movement after he separates himself. Your statement allows a player to use intent

"Well, I intended to split him off, but changed my mind. I'm not allowed to go back and re-move him, so I guess he gets to stay there."

Can't change your mind once you move the IC away, and if you follow up with a unit you would then have to stay more than 2" away from him, since that IC did not move at the speed of the slowest model.

Can you cite the rules that explain that?

Sure:
"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

So when leaving, and moving out of coherency distance he is not bound by the rule of "the speed of the slowest model" since they do not "stay together".

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" P.48

The second point is your opinion on not infact a rule.

DeathReaper wrote:"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

Apparently then, the issue is whether "during the Movement phase" includes at the end of the Movement phase? Or am I mis-reading again?

DeathReaper wrote:Sure:
"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

So when leaving, and moving out of coherency distance he is not bound by the rule of "the speed of the slowest model" since they do not "stay together".

Is he part of the unit during that movement phase - he only leaves the unit at the end of the phase, right?

No, apparently he "can leave a unit during the Movement phase"
not just at the end, as per P.48

There is no "End of the Movement phase phase." There is Movement phase and then Shooting phase.

Unless you are saying the IC does not leave until the Shooting phase, the end of the phase is part of the phase.

kirsanth wrote:There is no "End of the Movement phase phase." There is Movement phase and then Shooting phase.

Unless you are saying the IC does not leave until the Shooting phase, the end of the phase is part of the phase.

Then there is no Beginning of X Phase, and the game breaks.

The precise moment something stops being, is the end. Therefor the precise moment your moment phase turns into the Shooting Phase is the end of the Movement phase.

That's his point - the end of the phase is still part of the movement phase.

But if you do anything after he leaves, then it is not THE END.

.. Right. You and I agree.

You only check coherency at the end of movement, so while he is moving away he has NOT left the unit.

So since he and the unit are still together... (I'll let DeathReaper fill in the blank).

The quote about him moving away during the movement phase lets him move away during the movement phase.

So he is not still with the unit since he is moving away during the movement phase.

DeathReaper wrote:The quote about him moving away during the movement phase lets him move away during the movement phase.

So he is not still with the unit since he is moving away during the movement phase.

So what would happen if a squad of terminators moves up and is 7" away from an enemy squad. The IC then moves 6" away from his squad (even though he has a jump pack he just moves 6") This puts him 2" away from the terminators and 5" away from the enemy squad. If the other squad that the IC started with moves away from him 6" so as to avoid any confusion.

Wouldn't the IC seperate from his squad at the end of his movement phase since they are more than 2" apart. Since he moved second couldn't he join the terminators? Then couldn't he and the terminators assault the enemy squad? Granted the enemy squad...say orks would then have to use their defenders react move to get into base to base with the terminators, esentially allowing the terminators to get into CC despite being more than 6" away?

Akroma06 wrote:So what would happen if a squad of terminators moves up and is 7" away from an enemy squad. The IC then moves 6" away from his squad (even though he has a jump pack he just moves 6") This puts him 2" away from the terminators and 5" away from the enemy squad. If the other squad that the IC started with moves away from him 6" so as to avoid any confusion.

Wouldn't the IC seperate from his squad at the end of his movement phase since they are more than 2" apart. Since he moved second couldn't he join the terminators? Then couldn't he and the terminators assault the enemy squad? Granted the enemy squad...say orks would then have to use their defenders react move to get into base to base with the terminators, esentially allowing the terminators to get into CC despite being more than 6" away?

Yes this is correct.

rigeld2 wrote: At the movement speed of the slowest of the unit he's attached to. He's still with the unit as he is still attached until the end of the phase.

at his own movement speed.

Since "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" the JP could use the JP movement since "An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

The combined unit moves at the slowest speed, since the IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency, he is allowed to use whatever form of movement he is capable of using.

DeathReaper wrote:Since "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" the JP could use the JP movement since "An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

But on the turn that he is leaving the unit, he starts his movement as a part of the unit. He has left the unit if he finishes his movement out of coherency, but that movement is made while he is still with the unit, so he is still constrained by their movement limits.