Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Saw this on another forum and thought I would bring it up here and see what you guys think.

I find this totally out of the spirit of the game but what would you say to someone trying to pull this? I read the BRB and couldn't find anything saying that it was Illegal.

SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Now I look at the board and see that I am just outside the 12" (move + assault) range that these terminators would be able to make, it looks more like 13" maybe 14".

So I take my jump pack Sanguinary Priest and leave the unit moving him forward 8", I then proceed to move my Assault Termies up 6".

Now by the BRB this Sanguinary Priest is able to rejoin this assault termie unit due to being within 2" (as far as I can tell).

The unit now proceeds to Assault the unit that before was previously out of range but is now in range due to the 8" move of the Independent Character.


Also what If this is done from a less shady perspective, Say that the Sanguinary Priest was in a different unit from the Terminators. He moves out of the other unit, placed himself roughly 6 inches away, then had the previously out of assault range unit move up to him, they join as a unit, then Assault.

I know it likely that some of the models wouldn't get to attack in the assault phase as they would struggle to make it within that 2" off the model in base to base, but when attacking the right unit that would hardly matter. It may even be an advantage as you will be unlikely to kill them in your turn and then avoid the shooting phase before finishing them off in the opponents turn.

vossyvo wrote:Saw this on another forum and thought I would bring it up here and see what you guys think.

I find this totally out of the spirit of the game but what would you say to someone trying to pull this? I read the BRB and couldn't find anything saying that it was Illegal.

SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Now I look at the board and see that I am just outside the 12" (move + assault) range that these terminators would be able to make, it looks more like 13" maybe 14".

So I take my jump pack Sanguinary Priest and leave the unit moving him forward 8", I then proceed to move my Assault Termies up 6".

Now by the BRB this Sanguinary Priest is able to rejoin this assault termie unit due to being within 2" (as far as I can tell).

The unit now proceeds to Assault the unit that before was previously out of range but is now in range due to the 8" move of the Independent Character.

Also what If this is done from a less shady perspective, Say that the Sanguinary Priest was in a different unit from the Terminators. He moves out of the other unit, placed himself roughly 6 inches away, then had the previously out of assault range unit move up to him, they join as a unit, then Assault.

I know it likely that some of the models wouldn't get to attack in the assault phase as they would struggle to make it within that 2" off the model in base to base, but when attacking the right unit that would hardly matter. It may even be an advantage as you will be unlikely to kill them in your turn and then avoid the shooting phase before finishing them off in the opponents turn.

This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does. So you have to move the unit, then jump the IC over them into cohesion, and charge range.

Remember that an IC can only move the speed of the slowest member of a combined unit, so you have to keep the IC more than 2 inches away from the terminators, before you make your jump move.

This is not an easy maneuver to pull off, but it is valid. Spacecurves over at BOLS uses it and he's one of the top players in the country, from what I understand.

Wait a moment.

I thought that if an IC w/ a jump pack starts in an infantry unit he can only move 6" due to the fact that an IC is considered to have left the unit until the end of the movement phase, and, as such, must move the speed of the slowest model.

KGatch113 wrote:This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does.

I know for certain that this is wrong. An IC is attached to a unit if a unit is within 2" of him at the end of the movement phase.

Yeah, it does work. But it's not easy to pull off

1) IC is not in the unit, but on his own or with another unit.
2) Move Terminators their normal 6"
3) Jump IC from his previous position to with 2" of the termies, in front of them by 2". Thus joining the unit
4) Assault with IC and Unit in tow

I'm not 100% sure how to actually rule this, just getting the relevant quotes here so people don't rely so much on memory.

BRB page 48

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase." .... "Note that after a character joins a unit, that unit may move no further that Movement phase."

Here GW has used definition "their Movement phase" in quite mixed way. I'm pretty sure rules define that only players have movement phases, not models. But if they meant player movement phase, the ending of the same paragraph would be meaningless, as IC could only join an unit at the end of the player Movement phase and thus such unit couldn't move anyway.

So the intention seems to be that IC joining the unit is done immediately after IC's movement has been finished.

BRB page 48

* While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.
* An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

As far as moving over 6", it could be argued both ways, but I'd say that IC can move out full speed as he ceases to be member of the combined unit the moment he leaves coherency distance (assuming he can get out of coherency with 6" move). IC has to move first though.

vossyvo wrote:SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

I thought I covered all this in my post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellstorm wrote:Wait a moment.

I thought that if an IC w/ a jump pack starts in an infantry unit he can only move 6" due to the fact that an IC is considered to have left the unit until the end of the movement phase, and, as such, must move the speed of the slowest model.

KGatch113 wrote:This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does.

I know for certain that this is wrong. An IC is attached to a unit if a unit is within 2" of him at the end of the movement phase.

Wrong. Someone else already posted the correct rule.

Question since an IC fights by himself in assault, wouldn't the termies not be able to attack in that assault round anyway, since none of them can get to b2b or within 2" of a model in their unit that is b2b?

a) Defenders react, and
b) only when "resolving attacks" is an IC a separate unit

rigeld2 wrote:Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

I think you are missing his point.

Rules in question, which while shady seem fairly legitimate:

1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.
2. If an IC ends the movement phase within 2" of a unit, he has joined that unit.

Arugment being that IC leaves his movement to use his jump pack. Follow on unit moves its regular movement, ending within 2" of the IC. IC now rejoins the unit. Again, while it ,may violate the spirit of the rule, it seems completely legal.

Green is Best! wrote:
1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

No, he may not. Until the movement phase is over, the IC is part of the unit, and must therefore move at the speed of the slowest model. The IC can move out of coherency, but he still can only move 6" as he is restricted by the rest of the unit.

Wasn't this off of Stelek's blog where he was talking about his wonderfully clever, if awfully rules ambiguous, slingshotting strategy?

Green is Best! wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

Citation needed. You started movement joined to the unit. Since you're joined to the unit, you move as fast as the slowest model. Even breaking coherency you don't leave the unit until after you and the unit have moved (because coherency isn't determined until after you move all the models in the unit).
You're restricted to a 6" move.

lledwey wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:
1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

No, he may not. Until the movement phase is over, the IC is part of the unit, and must therefore move at the speed of the slowest model. The IC can move out of coherency, but he still can only move 6" as he is restricted by the rest of the unit.

lledwey is 100% correct; The IC may leave a unit by moving away, and if 1 model in the unit moves, the whole unit counts as moving, and units all move together, and units all move at the speed of the slowest model. Lets say you have a Chaplain with a jump pack, Attached to a tac squad with a Missile launcher, and the chaplain wishes to move away; the Chaplain has to move only 6" as the tac squad only has a 6" move, furthermore the Missile launcher cannot fire because a model in the unit moved. On the flip side the Chaplain can move to join the unit from up to 14" away(if he was not attached to another squad), and the tac squad can have remained stationary and still fire the missile launcher because that is specified in the IC rules. On the other flip side(this is clearly a 3-sided coin); a Chapter master(or Conversion Beamer equipped Master of the Forge) standing still and then joined by a tac squad walking up to within 2" of him cannot fire his Orbital bombardment(or conversion beamer) as the whole unit counts as having moved.

The tactic does work for an unattached JP-IC bouncing from behind though.

When an IC with a jump pack leaves a unit, he moves at his movement rate. The unit he left does not count as moving. However, when an IC joins a unit, that unit is done moving and counts as having moved.

The tactic sounds legitimate.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
lledwey is 100% correct; The IC may leave a unit by moving away, and if 1 model in the unit moves, the whole unit counts as moving, and units all move together, and units all move at the speed of the slowest model. Lets say you have a Chaplain with a jump pack, Attached to a tac squad with a Missile launcher, and the chaplain wishes to move away; the Chaplain has to move only 6" as the tac squad only has a 6" move, furthermore the Missile launcher cannot fire because a model in the unit moved. On the flip side the Chaplain can move to join the unit from up to 14" away(if he was not attached to another squad), and the tac squad can have remained stationary and still fire the missile launcher because that is specified in the IC rules. On the other flip side(this is clearly a 3-sided coin); a Chapter master(or Conversion Beamer equipped Master of the Forge) standing still and then joined by a tac squad walking up to within 2" of him cannot fire his Orbital bombardment(or conversion beamer) as the whole unit counts as having moved.

The tactic does work for an unattached JP-IC bouncing from behind though.

The above is not 100% correct.

If an IC joins or moves away from a unit the unit does not count as having moved.
"If an IC moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the IC Counts as having moved in the ensuing shooting phase, but the unit does not." P.48

So in the underlined situation above, the Missile launcher can fire as the unit does not count as having moved.

As for the bold, I can not find rules one way or the other, but there is no reason to treat this any differently than an IC moving and the unit not moving.

In that case where the unit moves into coherency and the IC stands still The rules about the IC moving and the unit counting as stationary would be a fair way to play it.

Also, the Chaplain with a Jump pack can move away from the unit using the Jump pack to move 12"
"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

So the IC can use his Jump Pack as long as the unit does not "stay together" because they only move "at the speed of the slowest model while the stay together"

As for the OP, the move extension is not legal, since the IC started with the unit and did not leave the unit he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and therefore can only move 6"

As Kel said: If the IC was not attached to that squad, you could use that tactic and it is legal.

yep missed the "or leaves" somehow; so the Tac squad can fire the missile launcher; but the Conversion Beamer/ Orbital bombardment still cannot be fired(as there is no specific rules changing the base).

DeathReaper wrote:As for the OP, the move extension is not legal, since the IC started with the unit and did not leave the unit he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and therefore can only move 6"

Right, but I thought that the whole premise of this move was that the IC is leaving the unit to move on his own. The original unit follows, ending up 2" away from the IC. Since the IC is now 2" away from a unit, he is considered (re) joined to that unit. Again, shady, but it does sound like it follows the rules in order to circumvent the rules.

I think everyone is in agreement this tactic would work if the IC started out not attached to this unit (i.e. jumps 12" from somwhere else and lands 2" in front of other unit, joins, and then "pulls" other unit into assault). The big question is can the IC leave a unit and re-join that same unit in the same movement phase?

On a different note, it was said that an IC can join or leave a unit, the unit counts as not moving in the shooting phase (provided it did not move). What about the opposite?
If I have a Big Mek with a SAG and a unit joins, can he still fire? (I thought it was no in this case)
If I have same Big Mek and his attached unit leaves, can he still fire (I thought it was yes in this case).

There are not even any base rules that cover the Conversion Beamer/ Orbital bombardment situation.

The only rules we have that are even close are the rules about the IC joining a stationary unit where the stationary unit does not count as moving.

There are no rules covering it at all so using the IC rules for them joining a unit would be the best way to handle it.

Green is Best! wrote:Right, but I thought that the whole premise of this move was that the IC is leaving the unit to move on his own. The original unit follows, ending up 2" away from the IC. Since the IC is now 2" away from a unit, he is considered (re) joined to that unit. Again, shady, but it does sound like it follows the rules in order to circumvent the rules.

The IC can not remain with the unit if he leaves the unit and uses his Jump Pack movement.

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If they stay together you have to move at the speed of the slowest model.

Yep. 2 problems with it

The IC would have to move and leave the unit - but you only check coherency at the end of the movement phase. So you havent left until the end and are thus restricted to the slowest speed

Second the unit would be trying to join the IC - when the IC has to join the unit.

You are only restricted " at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are leaving the unit you can move at whatever speed you are capable of since you are not staying together.

Since you don't discover whether an IC left the unit until after the movement phase you can't "leave" and "join" the same unit in the same phase. The IC is still with the same unit that he was with at the start of the movement phase so he never "left it" in the first place. As such he would be limited to the speed of the slowest member of the unit.
I can see you jumping to avoid a hazardous terrain test for the IC vis a vis the rest of the unit but he would still be limited in terms of distance travelled.

DeathReaper wrote:You are only restricted " at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are leaving the unit you can move at whatever speed you are capable of since you are not staying together.

If you're leaving the unit, you can't be in coherence at the end of movement.

That is what I said Rig.

if you are staying together you have to move at the speed of the slowest model, if not the IC with a Jump Pack or Bike can move whatever speed he wants.

Right, so you and nos are in agreement. I misread that originally.

rigeld2 wrote:If you're leaving the unit, you can't be in coherence at the end of movement.

This is where I think the OP was trying to skirt the issue. This is not covered in the brb. It just says at the end of your movement phase, IC's within 2" of a unit are considered joined. If within 2" of multiple units, they must declare which unit they are in. (Or something to that effect). There is nothing saying whether you can or can not rejoin a unit you have left.

Common sense dictates that this is not allowed and I would consider this "shady" at best.

From a strict rules interpretation, if the IC leaves the unit, he can move as fast as the model is allowed. Next, the unit can move. If it, or any other unit, ends within 2" of the IC, they are considered joined. The check for joining a unit is done at the end of the movement phase. From a step by step perspective, this works.

Green is Best! wrote:From a strict rules interpretation, if the IC leaves the unit, he can move as fast as the model is allowed.

That's debatable, as has already been pointed out.

Next, the unit can move. If it, or any other unit, ends within 2" of the IC, they are considered joined.

If the unit finishes its movement within 2" of the IC, they never left in the first place, since the unit (which on that turn included the IC) all moves at the same time. Whether or not the IC is joined to the unit is determined after everyone has moved, not just when you're halfway through moving the unit.

For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

you only have to move "at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are not staying together you fall back on the normal movement rules.

Not sure where the debate is.

This was debated at the B&C after the whole Stelek blog issue. Frankly, Stelek is full of crap and most if not all of his leet strats are only understandable by him. If you disagree with him, it is because you do not have his superior gaming intellect, not because he is wrong or just a flat out cheater.

The entire sling-shotting tactic is based on the false premise that a unit can move to within 2" of an IC and therefore the IC is joined to the unit. However there are absolutely no rules for units joining an IC.

Now, people have tried to backdoor the actual rule by saying that the IC is moving so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their movement, however the wording and grammar of the actual rule do not allow for this attempted loophole.

When you read the rule, the present indicative of the word, "is", prohibits the IC from moving to a place on the board where he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement. The present indicative use of the word "is" puts the burden on the IC to move within 2" to join a friendly unit. It does not give permission to the IC to move to a spot that will be within 2" of a friendly unit, it tells him that he has to move to a spot that he is within 2" of a friendly unit.

DeathReaper wrote:Not sure where the debate is.

The debate is simply that you don't determine the IC to have left the unit until after the unit's movement is completed... because that's when you check whether or not the IC is still in coherency.