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If you have to bend the rules to win are you really winning? It can be done but should it be done?

Jwalker52 wrote:If you have to bend the rules to win are you really winning? It can be done but should it be done?

I don't see how this is bending the rules. You're either breaking them (if the jumping IC is in the assaulting squad), or you're using a perfectly legal tactic (if the IC is in a separate squad capable of moving 12" or if he is alone).

Cheating is one thing. Moving tactically is another. The ideal player would foresee such a tactic, and adjust his/her tactics accordingly. While we can't all be the ideal player (I'm certainly not), being aware of valid tactics and understanding when someone has outplayed oneself is an important part of any competitive game. Immediately crying that it's "bending the rules" or "cheesy tactics" is just refusing to adapt and improve.

Now, if a tactic is continuously wrecking your army regardless of all reasonable attempts to counter it, then perhaps there is an aspect of the tactic that unfairly disadvantages you, but I seriously doubt that between two equally skilled players, these sorts of assault shenanigans make a game-breaking difference.

/2cents

I am pretty much on the 'Slingshot isn't legal' side of the fence but something I have been noticing posted I want to see if I can get a clear understanding of what is being said, insaniak I am going to use something you posted as an example for what I am trying to say/ask.

insaniak wrote:For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved). However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Saiisil wrote:I am pretty much on the 'Slingshot isn't legal' side of the fence but something I have been noticing posted I want to see if I can get a clear understanding of what is being said, insaniak I am going to use something you posted as an example for what I am trying to say/ask.

insaniak wrote:For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved). However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

The only thing is when does the unit stop being 1 and become 2? IIRC it checks at the end of the units movemet

Saiisil wrote:The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved).

This is correct. It's not how a lot of people play it, though.

However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Technically yes.

The thing is. at the time you choose to move the IC, he is a part of the unit. As such, he has to move at the same speed as the unit. The fact that he chooses to move off in a different direction makes no difference to this, because there is no 'declaration' for leaving a unit. You just move the IC and/or the unit, and if the end result is that the IC is more than 2" away from the unit, he has left them.

So as the IC hasn't left them until he has completed his movement, and he is a part of the unit when he performs that movement, he is constrained by their movement rate.

On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

But the SM's have to react to the nobz. You must try to b2b any model in a unit that assaulted you. Since the nobz will be within 6" and not all of the SM's can simply mob the warboss, some will have to engage the nobz unless the SM's are strung out as well...

Allow me to make a slight change to the question. Instead of a group of SM, it's a single model, whether an IC, MC, or Walker.

If it's a single model, I have already been locked in combat by the warboss, so it can't engage anything else.

Since none of the nobz got b2b, then none of them can attack the model assaulted nor can that model allocate any attacks vs the nobz.

We have a player that does this Shrike. Our group seems to be of the opinion that this is a legal move. All this thread has done is made me want to re-read the IC rules. I believe that Insaniak has the right of this. When I have played I have always declared my IC as leaving the unit and moved his full distance (I use Shrike exclusively with my Codex Marine Army). Interesting arguement.

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

An IC has to move to join a unit, the unit cannot move to join him. So you would have to move the unit of nobz first, and then hope your warboss can get through without passing "through" the nobz.


Technically you onlyu determine who can attck once, BEFORE you resolve any attacks. P49 states an IC is a separate unit during "Resolve attacks", meaning when you work out who can attack it is one unit, and so the nobz can attack even a single model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

An IC has to move to join a unit, the unit cannot move to join him. So you would have to move the unit of nobz first, and then hope your warboss can get through without passing "through" the nobz.


Technically you onlyu determine who can attck once, BEFORE you resolve any attacks. P49 states an IC is a separate unit during "Resolve attacks", meaning when you work out who can attack it is one unit, and so the nobz can attack even a single model.

Also, if the large base size of the ork warboss on a bike enhances this tactic (assuming you do it legally like Nosf says), prepare to be called ont he carpet for an oversized or elongated bike base.

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Since the check for joining is simply 'Is he within 2" at the end of the phase' it is commonly played that it doesn't matter which of them moves into that range, regardless of what the rules seem to indicate in this situation though.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Since the check for joining is simply 'Is he within 2" at the end of the phase' it is commonly played that it doesn't matter which of them moves into that range, regardless of what the rules seem to indicate in this situation though.

The check is based upon a specific direction given in the rule itself;

The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

I don't see permission for the unit to move within 2" of an IC so he will be within 2" of them at the end of their movement phase. What I see is that the IC has to make the move so that he is, not will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

That leaves only one possible scenario for an IC to join a unit,

1. The friendly unit either moves/does not move.

2. The IC moves so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement phase.

Any attempt to first move the IC and then move a unit so they are within 2" of the IC to join is changing the rule to read,

"The IC can move so that he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

I understand what the rules say. My point was simply that a lot of players don't care, and play that it doesn't matter who moves.

I think this needs a 'how would you play it' poll for both situations. People play it 'wrong' but don't care because it 'feels' right to them.

For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement
2) an IC can leave a unit then be joined by the same unit during the same movement phase
3) a unit can join an IC by moving close enough to an IC

Yes, if you normally play all 3 of those rules wrong, this tactic works just fine.

rigeld2 wrote:For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement

Actually an IC can use his movement to leave a unit, as he is only bound by the speed of the slowest model whilst they stay together.

rigeld2 wrote:2) an IC can leave a unit then be joined by the same unit during the same movement phase

This is correct.

rigeld2 wrote:3) a unit can join an IC by moving close enough to an IC

The rules state that "in order to join a unit, an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

So as long as the IC moved.

and is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

he can join the unit.

DR you last point is wrong.

The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement.

not

The IC has to move so he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement.

When you say the IC moved and then add your period as if that is the limit of his action, you are wrong. He has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement. As I pointed out, there is only one possible scenario for that to happen.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the last part of the joining rule. The IC has to move so that he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their move. Presumably the "their move" refers to the unit he wants to join. So it is not as clear cut as everyone is making it out to be. It seems that so long as the IC and unit are within 2" of each other regardless of who moves first they are joined.

Given context "their" means the IC

IMHO, we have to remember that every member of the unit has to move like the slowest one... Saying that you can leave the unit and join it again at the end of movement phase... totally invalidate the rule( and jump packs are not the only example... what if I move out of a terrain first to use the 3d6 roll and then I move the unit?)... or am I wrong?
From a RAW perspective such a move could even be legal but... I think that a little common sense would help...

Although ‘their’ is sometimes used as a singular pertaining to an individual it is most often used as a singular pertaining to a group (a team, a class, a unit, etc). I think, given the context, the fact that ICs are referred to quite consistently throughout the section as he/his/it when in the singular indicates that ‘their’ pertains to ‘a unit’. Granted, GW are inconsistent with their phrasing but to me this seems at best readable either way (ie it might mean the character, it might just as sensibly mean the unit).

Actually whe nyou read the whole sentence it only really makes sense if it were the IC. Otherwise the IC can be "joined" to the unit by simply passing within 2" at some point during their movement

Actually, that would assume every unit has a ‘movement phase’ rather than just the side. It’d be more sensible to assume that ‘their’ applies to both the IC and the unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement

Actually an IC can use his movement to leave a unit, as he is only bound by the speed of the slowest model whilst they stay together.

Actually, since he's a member of the unit at the beginning of his movement, and a unit must move at the speed of the slowest member, he may not. The "while they stay together" portion of the rule is a reminder that he's not restricted after he leaves the unit. But until he ends out of coherency, he is still a member of the unit since the rules mention nothing of intent.

There is only one movement phase. Individual models do not have their own movement phase. So at the end of the movement phase you determine if an IC is within 2" of another unit. If so he joins. Or are you telling me that I have an IC completely by himself. He never moves. a Unit moves in and completely surronds him, you are telling me he is not a part of that unit???

No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

Exactly.

The rule tells you specifically, that the IC HAS to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. Those are the specific conditions. There is no permission for a unit to move within 2" of a friendly IC at the end of their Movement phase and force him to join. This isn't a blind 2" check at the end of their Movement phase to determine if the IC is joined to a unit. You have to follow the rules for joining an IC to a unit and it does not include units moving to within 2" of a friendly IC.