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ShumaGorath wrote:I was looking at the right dog fraz. It's adorably stupid looking.
OK cool. Just making sure.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
We know a cop opened up on a dog which a witness testified to was barking and retreating.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: IN the OP the dog was not a physical threat (its crap small) and was actually backing off barking.
Said the untrained dog lover witness in the news story that opened with an appeal to emotion.
Not good enough.
We do not know what happened yet.
Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/05 18:10:12
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Frazzled wrote:
IN the OP the dog was not a physical threat (its crap small) and was actually backing off barking.
Said the untrained dog lover witness in the news story that opened with an appeal to emotion.
Not good enough.
We do not know what happened yet.
Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
Depends on a whole host of circumstances that we simply do not know. We don't know how aggressive it was being, we don't know it's demeanor. All we have is a vague eyewitness account from a dog lover printed by a newspaper that was fine opening the column with a hugely unethical appeal to emotion.
Also, you're advocating that people have fistfights with dogs and you're screaming animal cruelty? Using anything BUT a gun on a dangerous dog is animal cruelty. Also if you are shooting at all, you shoot until the threat stops. Shooting a dog once and letting it bleed out is a lot more cruel than shooting it 5 times. It's like you've got the entire thing backwards.
Frazzled wrote:
IN the OP the dog was not a physical threat (its crap small) and was actually backing off barking.
Said the untrained dog lover witness in the news story that opened with an appeal to emotion.
Not good enough.
We do not know what happened yet.
Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
Exactly. Without getting sidetracked with more comedy wolf-fights, the serious point was very simple.
A dog is only a threat to a grown man's life if said man is alone and particularly puny.
If he's a cop, with plenty of other cops. There is no real need to shoot it. If it was actually savaging one of your fellow officers (I would stamp on its head personally but I could forgive a firearm being used, YMMV) then shooting it would be acceptable, but as it stands, there was just no need for it.
In Iraq one of my section mates shot a dog, and we had an argument about it. Basically, he shot it simply because he could, he was a young daft lad, we had weapons free clearance and he thought "feth it" and slotted a dog that was pretty aggressive. It was a dirty stray, and I still had a go at him because there was just no need for it.
This was a family fething pet and the point remains that it wasnt actually biting anyone!
There really was no need for it. The cop probably shot it for the same reason that my stupid mate did.
Simply because he could. But was it really necessary?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Frazzled wrote:
IN the OP the dog was not a physical threat (its crap small) and was actually backing off barking.
Said the untrained dog lover witness in the news story that opened with an appeal to emotion.
Not good enough.
We do not know what happened yet.
Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
Depends on a whole host of circumstances that we simply do not know. We don't know how aggressive it was being, we don't know it's demeanor. All we have is a vague eyewitness account from a dog lover printed by a newspaper that was fine opening the column with a hugely unethical appeal to emotion.
Also, you're advocating that people have fistfights with dogs and you're screaming animal cruelty? Using anything BUT a gun on a dangerous dog is animal cruelty. Also if you are shooting at all, you shoot until the threat stops. Shooting a dog once and letting it bleed out is a lot more cruel than shooting it 5 times. It's like you've got the entire thing backwards.
But I'm not. I know full well a dog can be a danger. But that contravenes this:
1. Witness that dog was retreating.
2. Testimony that the dog was not large.
And no I am not willing to give the cop a presumption here.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote:No it doesn't American bull terriers are larger than that. British bull terriers are shorter. It is of course natural that an American pit bul is bigger
It doesn't what?
If you mean it isn't knee high I read on the infallible Wikipedia that APBT are 14-22 inches tall which makes them solidly knee high. And yeah it'd have to be a real short boxer...but I've seen a lot of them lately and not puppies...also not even mildly threatenig or 80lbs.
I'll leave room to say I could easily be wrong...you know citing Wikipedia and stuff.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Frazzled wrote: IN the OP the dog was not a physical threat (its crap small) and was actually backing off barking.
Said the untrained dog lover witness in the news story that opened with an appeal to emotion.
Not good enough.
We do not know what happened yet.
Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
Depends on a whole host of circumstances that we simply do not know. We don't know how aggressive it was being, we don't know it's demeanor. All we have is a vague eyewitness account from a dog lover printed by a newspaper that was fine opening the column with a hugely unethical appeal to emotion.
No, it depends on the dogs capability. As stated the dog was young and of a small breed. There are few other viable circumstances beyond the officers assuming it was rabid that could of slipped past this article. The dog did not have a knife. There was no baby in it's mouth. It wasn't wearing a turban. It was standing there and growlingbarking. It may have approached and even done so aggressively (though that directly contrasts the actual witness statement), but given the size of the animal that doesn't constitute the kind of threat that warrants use of deadly force. There is little here to defend.
Also, you're advocating that people have fistfights with dogs and you're screaming animal cruelty? Using anything BUT a gun on a dangerous dog is animal cruelty.
Nets? Cages? Those grabby claw things? The nooses at the end of a pole? There are alternatives. Animal control doesn't walk up with a nine mil and a licence to kill.
Also if you are shooting at all, you shoot until the threat stops. Shooting a dog once and letting it bleed out is a lot more cruel than shooting it 5 times. It's like you've got the entire thing backwards.
That's established.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/12/05 18:47:26
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Nets? Cages? Those grabby claw things? The nooses at the end of a pole? There are alternatives. Animal control doesn't walk up with a nine mil and a licence to kill.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Seems to be petting the image after the shots.......
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I'd like to point out that Matty was so outraged that I would think him unable to fight a wolf that he texted me this:
What? You're saying I can't fight wolves? You're having a laugh...
Total fething lunatic, but that's why we're bros. FWIW mate, I didn't doubt you for a second - I'd back you against a fething rhinocerous!
@MonsterRain - You should definitely meet up with mattyrm for a wee drink in LA. It'll change your whole perspective on gak. Gutted I can't be there, as it'd be legendary craic.
Nets? Cages? Those grabby claw things? The nooses at the end of a pole? There are alternatives. Animal control doesn't walk up with a nine mil and a licence to kill.
Cumberland County animal control officers say they will now use deadly force against dangerous animals as a last resort.
I wonder what the first resorts are...oh yeah that whole list of gak Shuma said plus any we've forgotten...like whistling and patting your leg.
As a resident of North Carolina I'll come out and say this is necessary. The dog in the OP was not a threat, even if it had attacked the officer, a grown man should have the ability to kick a small dog like that halfway into the next county without shooting it. Then there are real dogs, like the one on that target. If one of those is coming at you, mucking around will only get you into serious trouble. I use the term "coming at you" because if a dog is standing off and barking then you have time to assess the situation, maybe back off, or get a non-lethal option ready. When a dog wants to hurt you, it doesn't bark, or growl, or stand still. Once a dog decides you're enough of a threat to attack it just attacks. I assume (and am probably wrong) that if the Police in the article are being trained on things like that, not just the best way to use 12g buck on a dog.
I've had my face torn open by a dog before, 10 hours with a plastic surgeon and I was pretty much fine, I still like dogs, but I'll never forget how nonthreatening the dog that attacked me was. Not a single bark, or growl, it didn't come running at me with fangs bared. I had no idea what was about to happen, which scares me more than any barking or growling dog ever will.
Another thing. If you have dogs, and you don't live out in the boonies it is your responsibility to keep them from harm. We don't let our dog wander around, even though we don't have a leash law in this town. People are stupid when it comes to dogs, dogs get hurt all the time because cops don't know how to handle them or are trigger happy. Even I will fully admit if there is a dog near my house that is threatening looking I'll have a shotgun loaded just in case it goes after someone (when I say dog I mean pit-bull or larger).
I have a Boxer, who is the nicest dog you could ever meet, not just saying that because he is my dog, people who know him agree. But he has a big powerful mouth full of big powerful teeth, so we keep him in a fenced yard so things like the OP's article don't happen to him. Now if someone comes into our yard and hurts him, they'll wake up at the pearly gates wondering what happened.
Bass, like the fish. No, I have no idea why.
300pts Airadna - Infinity
1000pts Catachan 7th Imperial Guard
AustonT wrote:Does it suprise you? Does it?
Because Kanluwen's pronounced tendency to come to the defense of ANY cop ANYWHERE doing ANYTHING has grown tired.
Yeah, I've danced that merry dance with Kanluwen before. And now I've read through this thread, in which a whole lot of posters have shown very clearly that there was no justification for shooting the dog. In fact, frazzled and mattyrm have actually made me kind of jealous with how quickly and succinctly they made their points.
But I really don't think Kanluwen will change his mind. In his eyes, everything done by a policeman is justifiable, and reason will not challenge that position.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
ShumaGorath wrote:Short of that dog having a knife I don't think there's a reasonable claim to be made for personal endangerment if the physical description of the animal holds up. If the witness testimony holds up then it's blatant misuse of a firearm and certain animal cruelty.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility to think that they found a knife on the dog after he was shot.
Also, there's no prosecutor in the world that would bring charges against a cop for misuse of a firearm or animal cruelty. Even laying aside qualified immunity, it's a death sentence for a prosecutor's career to be labelled "anti-cop"
AustonT wrote:Does it suprise you? Does it?
Because Kanluwen's pronounced tendency to come to the defense of ANY cop ANYWHERE doing ANYTHING has grown tired.
Yeah, I've danced that merry dance with Kanluwen before. And now I've read through this thread, in which a whole lot of posters have shown very clearly that there was no justification for shooting the dog. In fact, frazzled and mattyrm have actually made me kind of jealous with how quickly and succinctly they made their points.
A "whole lot of posters" have shown no such thing. They've effectively shown that in their understanding of the situation, there's no justification.
Every situation is not the same, and facts sadly do change the nature of a situation. That said...
But I really don't think Kanluwen will change his mind. In his eyes, everything done by a policeman is justifiable, and reason will not challenge that position.
Reason will challenge that position plenty. A mediocre piece of what amounts to emotional blackmail disguised as 'real journalism' won't challenge that position.
Does it suck that the dog's dead? Of course. Dogs are awesome, and should be treasured. That said, as I already put forward: we don't know the entirety of the situation and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to police simply because discharging firearms in a residential area is a Very Big Deal. If there's some kind of abuse of authority here, then I damn well expect to see some kind of punishment meted out to the officer who shot the dog--and if in fact another officer was standing by watching the first commit this act, then they goddamned well better be held culpable as an accomplice.
As for your sarcastic commentary about "everything done by a policeman is justifiable", I very well do believe that. Do you know why?
Because I really do have to believe we're not being protected by people who have no business holding firearms, let alone being permitted outside without a fething helmet on. I'd also like to be able to reasonably say that the field I'm pursuing is not full of incompetent twits, but if you'd like to keep badmouthing it go right ahead.
I've been wanting to shoot the dog next door for its incessant barking for months. Can somebody pass on the phone number of these alleged pet-snuffers? I'd do it myself, but the number of hoops you have to dive through just to get a firearm now means it is not worth the effort of DIY in this case.
(Before you ask, no - I'm not a dog-lover. Never was, never will be. Doesn't matter if it's a hyper little yappy rat-creature or a big-mean-bastich to me.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/06 05:44:15
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
halonachos wrote:Remember that these are supposedly Illinois police officers, Illinois is known for corruption.
What do you mean, "supposedly" Illinois police officers?
There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.
Kanluwen wrote: "everything done by a policeman is justifiable", I very well do believe that.
It's a good thing you spent all your creditability on this statement, and I'm glad you did.
Spoiler:
May 5, 2011: Former Iraq veteran Jose Guerena was shot to death by Pima County Sheriff SWAT officers. They suspected Guerena of being part of a drug dealing operation (he was not involved). The five person team fired 71 rounds at Guerena in seven seconds, who died after being hit 22 times.The officers prevented the ambulance from getting Guerena medical attention until they searched the house. The officers even pointed their guns at Guerena's wife and 4-year-old son. Despite that dozens of neighbors testified that the officers never knocked or identified themselves when they entered the house, the SWAT team was cleared of any wrongdoing and never apologized to Guerena's family. Neighbors also said that the SWAT officers burst into their houses after the shooting and intimidated them, which the officers deny.
July 5, 2011: Kelly Thomas was a 37 year old homeless man suffering from schizophrenia and living on the streets of Fullerton, California. He was fatally beaten by members of the Fullerton Police Department. He passed away from his injuries on the 10th of July 2011. Unarmed and mentally ill, Thomas was shocked with tasers and beaten with flashlights by up to six police officers. An investigation into the beating has been launched and the FBI has become involved. A protest over the beating was held outside the Fullerton Police Department on 18 July 2011.[4] Four officers have been suspended and two have been charged with second degree murder and manslaughter.
Jan 22, 2010. Yao Wei Wu was beaten by officers from Vancouver Police Department who knocked on the wrong door while investigating a report of a violent domestic dispute.[5] Speaking through a translator, Yao Wei Wu told CBC News that as soon as he opened the door the officers pulled him out of the house and beat him.
April 1, 2009. Passing through the G20 summit protests in London, Ian Tomlinson was struck in the back of his legs and pushed to the ground by a police constable with the Territorial Support Group in South London. He died soon afterwards. The initial police statement said that police had been alerted that a man had collapsed, and were attacked by "a number of missiles" as they tried to save his life.[6] Several videos from citizen passersby surfaced about one week after the incident and sparked public outcry. The officer has been interviewed on suspicion of manslaughter.
good luck on your career, hopefully they disband the IAB before you start at the Sugar Plum Land PD.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Because I really do have to believe we're not being protected by people who have no business holding firearms, let alone being permitted outside without a fething helmet on. I'd also like to be able to reasonably say that the field I'm pursuing is not full of incompetent twits, but if you'd like to keep badmouthing it go right ahead.
Full of and free from are not the same thing. Deal with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/06 06:08:36
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Because I really do have to believe we're not being protected by people who have no business holding firearms, let alone being permitted outside without a fething helmet on. I'd also like to be able to reasonably say that the field I'm pursuing is not full of incompetent twits, but if you'd like to keep badmouthing it go right ahead.
Full of and free from are not the same thing. Deal with it.
It's a frightening day when I agree without reservation to something you say.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Kanluwen wrote: "everything done by a policeman is justifiable", I very well do believe that.
It's a good thing you spent all your creditability on this statement, and I'm glad you did.
Spoiler:
May 5, 2011: Former Iraq veteran Jose Guerena was shot to death by Pima County Sheriff SWAT officers. They suspected Guerena of being part of a drug dealing operation (he was not involved). The five person team fired 71 rounds at Guerena in seven seconds, who died after being hit 22 times.The officers prevented the ambulance from getting Guerena medical attention until they searched the house. The officers even pointed their guns at Guerena's wife and 4-year-old son. Despite that dozens of neighbors testified that the officers never knocked or identified themselves when they entered the house, the SWAT team was cleared of any wrongdoing and never apologized to Guerena's family. Neighbors also said that the SWAT officers burst into their houses after the shooting and intimidated them, which the officers deny.
July 5, 2011: Kelly Thomas was a 37 year old homeless man suffering from schizophrenia and living on the streets of Fullerton, California. He was fatally beaten by members of the Fullerton Police Department. He passed away from his injuries on the 10th of July 2011. Unarmed and mentally ill, Thomas was shocked with tasers and beaten with flashlights by up to six police officers. An investigation into the beating has been launched and the FBI has become involved. A protest over the beating was held outside the Fullerton Police Department on 18 July 2011.[4] Four officers have been suspended and two have been charged with second degree murder and manslaughter.
Jan 22, 2010. Yao Wei Wu was beaten by officers from Vancouver Police Department who knocked on the wrong door while investigating a report of a violent domestic dispute.[5] Speaking through a translator, Yao Wei Wu told CBC News that as soon as he opened the door the officers pulled him out of the house and beat him.
April 1, 2009. Passing through the G20 summit protests in London, Ian Tomlinson was struck in the back of his legs and pushed to the ground by a police constable with the Territorial Support Group in South London. He died soon afterwards. The initial police statement said that police had been alerted that a man had collapsed, and were attacked by "a number of missiles" as they tried to save his life.[6] Several videos from citizen passersby surfaced about one week after the incident and sparked public outcry. The officer has been interviewed on suspicion of manslaughter.
good luck on your career, hopefully they disband the IAB before you start at the Sugar Plum Land PD.
I think Rodney King can back up Kans statement as well. If the cops hadn't been good enough to stop and give him an all over baton massage he would have been stiff for a week!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Truth be told. I've never ranked the Rodney King incident among unwarranted police brutality. In that: I'm not saying it wasn't brutal or that the police were involved, but that after leading the cops in a 100+ mph car chase on motorways and residential streets, exhibiting odd behavior, and physically tossing two full grown men off his back like King Kong (they thought he was on PCP...he wasn't), and being Tased once to no apparent lasting effect. He basically received the bootstomping his actions required. It's not like the left him to die, the took him immediately to the hospital. In those arcane days before YouTube and a video camera in every hipsters hand that read out like, "ok we kicked this guys stinkhole in, let's get him patched up, run a collar and hope we never see him again"
Nowadays I liken it to capturing HVTs, it's weird how the after capture pictures always have swollen cheekbones and dark eyes when he squirts out of a raid. Because if I had to chase you through six blocks of an Iraqi city I'd deliver a swift buttstroke or muzzle punch to the face too.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Kanluwen wrote:
As for your sarcastic commentary about "everything done by a policeman is justifiable", I very well do believe that. Do you know why?
Because I really do have to believe we're not being protected by people who have no business holding firearms, let alone being permitted outside without a fething helmet on. I'd also like to be able to reasonably say that the field I'm pursuing is not full of incompetent twits, but if you'd like to keep badmouthing it go right ahead.
Being competent is not the same thing as being perfect, or completely free from the capacity to err.
Unless by "justifiable" you mean in the sense that all things are able to be justified provided that one is willing to accept any and all possible sources of justification. Unfortunately, that's not true of any reasonable person, and what you've said here is essentially the same as justifying the actions of police officers by virtue of their being police officers, which is ridiculous for a number of very obvious reasons.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
The only thing that doesn't make the least bit of sense to me here is the "five shots is too much" crowd. I mean, all other things aside, once the cops decide this dog needs to die, unless they are wildly spraying bullets throughout the neighborhood who cares how many bullets you put into the thing? It's the same argument I hear when a guy pulls a gun and the nine cops there all unload a mag into the guy, Why did we need 47 bullets? It doesn't matter, one bullet or fifty, they are killing whatever they shoot at. If they aren't trying to kill it, don't shoot. Bullets are cheap, making sure what you want to be dead is dead is f'ing priceless.
unless they are wildly spraying bullets throughout the neighborhood who cares how many bullets you put into the thing? Why did we need 47 bullets? It doesn't matter, one bullet or fifty, they are killing whatever they shoot at.
Must be something about the part where bullets don't just stop when they hit the magic wall of your target. Or that the mass of a human rarely arrests the velocity of a modern automatic pistol round, let alone an underweight dog.
So yeah, I question how many rounds and why are fired since I don't want to be shot in my living room two blocks away by one of the 46 extra bullets you think the cops should rip off at every chance they get.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Kanluwen wrote:
As for your sarcastic commentary about "everything done by a policeman is justifiable", I very well do believe that. Do you know why?
Because I really do have to believe we're not being protected by people who have no business holding firearms, let alone being permitted outside without a fething helmet on. I'd also like to be able to reasonably say that the field I'm pursuing is not full of incompetent twits, but if you'd like to keep badmouthing it go right ahead.
Being competent is not the same thing as being perfect, or completely free from the capacity to err.
Unless by "justifiable" you mean in the sense that all things are able to be justified provided that one is willing to accept any and all possible sources of justification. Unfortunately, that's not true of any reasonable person, and what you've said here is essentially the same as justifying the actions of police officers by virtue of their being police officers, which is ridiculous for a number of very obvious reasons.
I don't even think the police en masse ARE competent. Their training is too short, not comprehensive enough, and far too easy. The training bleed is non existent as well. The whole reason elite military formations like the SEALs have difficult training is because the training bleed ensure's a good standard of soldier.
Thus, 99% of SF soldiers are competent. But maybe only half of the run of the mill grunts are. And it's basically the luck of the draw with civvies for that same reason. The selection just ain't rigorous enough. The guy who works in Subway might be great.. but he might suck too. Same difference.
Some cops are brilliant. Some are incompetent fools. Kans logic is terribly flawed. Even with year long rigorous selection you can't guarantee that every single bloke in the green berets is going to be switched on. You just minimise the risk.
But look how short and easy police training is. If you get a good or a bad one your basically relying on luck.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
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