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sirisaacnuton wrote:If it's weaker than GK, the people who play that army will feel shafted and be unhappy about it.

I see your point, but I think there are a lot of us who would disagree. A lot of GK players grew up on DH. We're used to being shafted.

ShumaGorath wrote:

The DCAs will have grenades if they're assaulting from a crusader, in which case they will likely either be acting in a standoff role and countercharging you (since the army will win in a shooting fight) or they'll be multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads at the same time before the grey hunters strike back with average rolls. If they are using a raven then they're probably either reserving in or jetting towards a target of opportunity. The threat range is enormous and it's not particularly difficult to chose a target or numerous targets that aren't in cover. This includes vehicles due to Might of Titan giving the MC ability. The inquisitor himself is excellent for the points, gives your army utility, and allows the taking of intensely cheap scoring melta units.

How many DCA are you talking here? How many Grey Hunters? At one point, I calculated each DCA as being 1.5 MEQ wounds on the round they charge. That's a lot, admittedly, but I don't think that's "multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads" If you have 12 DCA, it's possible that you could multicharge and kill both squads to a man before they get to attack back, averaging 18 kills. Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads. A question to ask at this point is WTF were you doing positioning yourself where you could get multiassaulted? Do you feel cheated when you have your models bunched up and your opponent has large blast weapons? You have to play your army while keeping in mind your opponents strengths. For example, you don't let Nids or Orks multiassault you, right?

The DCA squad is going to hover around 450 points with vehicle and librarian. Including the inquisitor in that is a red herring as he acts independently from that unit and pretending that the vehicle itself adds nothing is foolish.

Ah. That explains a lot. I now understand why Purifiers and Paladins are so amazing to you.

How many DCA are you talking here? How many Grey Hunters? At one point, I calculated each DCA as being 1.5 MEQ wounds on the round they charge. That's a lot, admittedly, but I don't think that's "multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads" If you have 12 DCA, it's possible that you could multicharge and kill both squads to a man before they get to attack back, averaging 18 kills. Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads

4 attacks on the charge, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds. A squad of ten with a librarian is killing on average about 19.5 Gray hunters with an average set of rolls. With good rolls they can bring the last ten down, but two squads is the "reasonable limit".

Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads. A question to ask at this point is WTF were you doing positioning yourself where you could get multiassaulted?

I don't play space wolves? In my experience GKs are exceptionally good at popping rhino chassis and most marine efforts in land raider killing involve a melta drop of some sort which necessitates proximity to the unit itself. You could certainly hold up in ruins and forests, but at that point it's a shooting game and Gks excel in standing firefights. That's part of why the DCA unit is used in a counter assault role, they're better off being reactive against most MEQ forces while the rest of the GK force pummels them at 24 inches.

Do you feel cheated when you have your models bunched up and your opponent has large blast weapons? You have to play your army while keeping in mind your opponents strengths. For example, you don't let Nids or Orks multiassault you, right?

Let them? I find it hard to avoid "letting" ghazgull and snikrot get a multi assault on my backfield when I have over 200 orks walking up the front. Are you some sort of untouchable golden idle who has never been assaulted and has never rolled an 11 for leadership?

Ah. That explains a lot. I now understand why Purifiers and Paladins are so amazing to you.

I never said they were amazing (though they are). I said that they beat Gray hunters soundly in close combat. Which they do. Consistently and in almost every possible situation. I was posting in response to someone that stated that their numerical inferiority made them duly inferior despite killing MEQs in combat at an almost 5-1 ratio as GHs while having twice as many shots at range with a higher strength weapon and access to psycanons and force weapons. This is ignoring their ability to kill entire ork squads before combat with clever combat squadding or placement.

Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

@Defeatmyarmy

No offense but I don't think you play enough. GK's aren't broken. The next year will really tell but I doubt we'll see the kind of domination that SW's and before them Orks managed.

And IG are not one of the least played codexes. By far....

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

If the leafblower armies are taking out broken GK armies, doesn't that mean that they are the broken armies and not GKs?

Blackmoor wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

If the leafblower armies are taking out broken GK armies, doesn't that mean that they are the broken armies and not GKs?

Is it 2009 again and I missed it? DFA is saying leafblower is the new boogieman?

ShumaGorath wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds. A squad of ten with a librarian is killing on average about 19.5 Gray hunters with an average set of rolls. With good rolls they can bring the last ten down, but two squads is the "reasonable limit".

Ah. I think I forgot to calculate the WS5 in my initial mathhammering.

I don't play space wolves? In my experience GKs are exceptionally good at popping rhino chassis and most marine efforts in land raider killing involve a melta drop of some sort which necessitates proximity to the unit itself. You could certainly hold up in ruins and forests, but at that point it's a shooting game and Gks excel in standing firefights. That's part of why the DCA unit is used in a counter assault role, they're better off being reactive against most MEQ forces while the rest of the GK force pummels them at 24 inches.

Okay, but it's a situation where, be they in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, it can still be popped first turn. You don't think that the fact that you've got 350-500 points wrapped up in a Land Raider wasting time waiting to be reactive or a Storm Raven getting ready to rush in with "Kill me. First." written on the front of it is significant? If they didn't exist in that form, that'd just be another Dreadnought, Purifier squad, or more Paladins to cram down your throat. In a lot of situations, that would be even more effective.

I have also been to a lot of tourneys, some that Blackmoor attended, and the issue with GK that I think has been glossed over is HOW they break the game, not so much how powerful they are in tourneys (though I do contend that GK are clearly the strongest army in the game, that is not the point I want to make currently).

For example, GK armies can literally table Daemons without incident, without shooting and without assault. No army should be able to win without playing, while sacrificing NOTHING versus other armies. I mean, sure infiltrating 100+ kroot may cover the table such that Daemons can not deploy, but this requires a major rewrite of a tau list. GK can do this as a side effect, BY DESIGN.

The last time we had a situation like this was, IMHO, siren in the old Chaos book. No shooting or assaulting allowed on 2 models could win games without firing a shot, especially in the era with even less psychic defense in it.

If the metagame has shifted such that you can not bring Daemons as an army, because Grey Knights invalidate their existance AND Grey Knights are well represented as FotM, then that means Grey Knights, as an army, are Broken. If your opponent can not play the game because of the army you brought, something is wrong.

You have to tailor GKs to do that. You have to bring enough Interceptors + Strikes to cover the board (doesn't require a ton) and you're probably going to need to shunt them. Most competitive GK lists do not have that many. You can't just incidentally table Daemons with most GK lists.

So yes, GK can tailor to completely screw Daemons, but screw themselves in the process. Tell me how that works out for you.

Also, how many actual times has this happened:

GK armies can literally table Daemons without incident, without shooting and without assault.

Like actual, documented times at an event. I haven't heard of any yet.

Again, the reality is most GK armies have little or no units that have Warp Quake. Strikes suck, and Interceptors are over-priced. That is why you see henchman armies and purifier spam.

I played my GKs at the ‘Ard Boyz semi-finals and there was a Chaos Demon player at it that I did not want to play. Do you know why? Because like every other GK player I did not have Warp Quake, but he had a lot of Collars of Khorne that gives him a 2+ save against force weapons.

I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

No? I hear boo on elites as troops more then the standard troops.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

Paladins, Purifiers, and Henchmen sticking to the Elites slot would go a long way in balancing the codex.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

Really? It seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that Strike Squads aren't very good, and generally take one of the FoC swapping HQ's to change out his troops to Either Purifiers and Draigowing.

So, I'm curious that if people were stuck with GK Terminators and Strike squads as their only Troop Choices, if people would lessen their complaints. Not being able to take Purifiers/Paladins as troops would likely change the entire Dynamic of the GK codex, and peoples viewpoint with it.

Subject: Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade. Alert a mod to a rule-breaking
post - reason:



Someone's gotta be the most powerful faction. Might as well be the GK. Nyah.

MightyGodzilla wrote:Someone's gotta be the most powerful faction. Might as well be the GK. Nyah.

Thanks for your earthshaking insight!

You're welcome. In 4 months and 8 months and 12 months, etc, etc someone will be making the same points about a different faction, so I thought I'd just state the obvious. And it's a valid point. Someone's always gonna be on top. So why not GK. What the thread should derail into is which army deserves to be on top...cuz there's no equality. That's just an ideal.

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

They wouldn't be nearly as potent composition wise though their undercosting on key units and some of the over the top rules (lookin' at you fortitude) would still put them slightly over the top against the average of codexes in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MightyGodzilla wrote:You're welcome. In 4 months and 8 months and 12 months, etc, etc someone will be making the same points about a different faction, so I thought I'd just state the obvious. And it's a valid point. Someone's always gonna be on top. So why not GK. What the thread should derail into is which army deserves to be on top...cuz there's no equality. That's just an ideal.

So long as the power trend is curving upwards then there will always be a "most powerful codex ever produced". DE and BA got skipped and the power baton has gone from orks to IG to Space Wolves to GKs. Without the presence of mech guard to tamp down tourney pairings it's likely GKs would be the kind of dominant that was implied at the start of this thread. IGvGK is a very tough matchup for GKs in a lot of situations. It looks like necrons are having the power baton passed over their head as well as they don't slot particularly well into the current meta.

Shuma, you are rediculous.

Why in god's name would a space wolves player leave 30 grey hunters waiting to be charged.

The reality of that situation is this:

LR + 10 DCA + Libby = 600 ish points

They will charge and absolutely mangle (if they get to charge and the land raider isn't destroyed first) one marine squad, lets say it's a 10 man to make you feel better, even though most people run 5 mans, which are cheap and disposable.

You kill 150-200 points.

You're now in the open, with models that are t3 with a 5+ invul. You get shot to absolute bits, and your landraider which brought you in for the charge, gets melta'd into oblivion.

Congratulations. You just traded 600+ points for 200.

You can't view these units in a void where you say things like "DCA's kill 1.77 marines per thats 5 times what a GH does". They're two completely different units, with different roles, and different strengths and weaknesses. DCA are just an assault based glass cannon, that type of unit has existed before (howling banshees, for example).

I've played and won multiple GT's, and I'll say this: I'm currently playing my GK for a change of pace and because I'm enjoying painting them, but hands down, my IG is a better army. And I don't run leafblower/stationary IG either. With my GK, I walk into tourneys knowing I have many weaknesses my IG didnt, which were very well rounded and strong against pretty much everything (imo). I know that if I run into a good wolves, IG, BA player, I'm in at best an even match. And I cringe when I see land raiders.

The thing is, if grey knights are built to rock/paper/scissor a certain army or build, they leave themselves very open to others. My list is "well rounded", or as much as it can be imo, and I have two big holes: deepstrikers, land raiders, and mass-jump BA with devs. Every army has weaknesses, and GK are no exception to that. In fact in my experience, they're even more susceptible to it.

targetawg wrote:Shuma, you are rediculous.

This whole thread is fething ridiculous. I can't even pick a side since everyone in here has done something in some way to annoy the gak out of me, lol. Especially you Augustus and your gak-talking about Dark Eldar earlier...you've made a powerful enemy this day!

I think Shuma is right and you all should feel bad. Even Shuma! I already do feel bad having read every page of this bitchfest so I'm exempt.


Also, I still can't figure out why an expensive unit being able to kill a substantially cheaper unit is a bad thing or indicative of horrible game balance.

In the last decade there have been far more Overpowered books than Grey knights. 3.5 CSMs, Orks circa 2008, Eldar circa 05-07 you know, the unbeatable 4th ed Mechdar? GK are not Mechdar or the Nob Biker Orks of yesteryear and they come no where near the unbalanced game play of the 3.5 CSM or 2nd ed Tyranids.

A decade is ten years, a decade is not the span of 5th edition. Even then I would have to say IG/SW were the most unbalancing books in 5th ed, but still not the last DECADE.

That's it, the thread is completely out of control at this point so I will leave it be now.

Grey Knights are not overpowered, I play them regularly with my space wolves and the only army that has beaten me was cotaez's death cult assasin spam.

OverwatchCNC wrote:In the last decade there have been far more Overpowered books than Grey knights. 3.5 CSMs, Orks circa 2008, Eldar circa 05-07 you know, the unbeatable 4th ed Mechdar? GK are not Mechdar or the Nob Biker Orks of yesteryear and they come no where near the unbalanced game play of the 3.5 CSM or 2nd ed Tyranids.

A decade is ten years, a decade is not the span of 5th edition. Even then I would have to say IG/SW were the most unbalancing books in 5th ed, but still not the last DECADE.

That's it, the thread is completely out of control at this point so I will leave it be now.

Yeah, this thread is garbage... OverwatchCNC is on the money. A decade is a long time and 3rd edition was pretty broken and had some massive imbalances and some crazy overpowered armies.

Now a case can be made for 5th edition which is basically 2-3 years, but with 6th edition around the corner less than 12 months out it sounds and pretty much these being 6th edition codexes, this doesn't strike me as a 'OMFGOVERPOWERED' because I suspect we will see some core rule changes which will 'change' things. And even now, it isn't that bad.

targetawg--Andrew? You think your IG are better than your GK? I remember something different lol.

A LR, Coteaz, and 10 Deathcult is not a prohibitive investment. Landraiders have a vaild place in the metagame, as you even have said, without considering the transported unit. Coteaz is an unbelievably good HQ for the points, as in completely worthwhile without needing to make henchmen troops. 10 Deathcult is only 150 points, and given the opportunity to assault 30 greyhunters, they gladly will.

The way I see it, you have a landraider (great metagame unit) coteaz (great HQ, great metagame unit) and deathcult (best opportunity assault unit in the game).

Whats the issue again?

My answer is quite simple. Are the GK overpowered? To me, I'll have to say yes in this case. Am I afraid of all of the most common of the power lists?

Nope and the reason is that within all Codex's there are inherent weaknesses that can be exploited by those pros that have been at this game for so long. I know their weaknesses and I can exploit them.

Anyone can play an "uber" list, but not everyone can play it correctly.

DevianID wrote:targetawg--Andrew? You think your IG are better than your GK? I remember something different lol.

A LR, Coteaz, and 10 Deathcult is not a prohibitive investment. Landraiders have a vaild place in the metagame, as you even have said, without considering the transported unit. Coteaz is an unbelievably good HQ for the points, as in completely worthwhile without needing to make henchmen troops. 10 Deathcult is only 150 points, and given the opportunity to assault 30 greyhunters, they gladly will.

The way I see it, you have a landraider (great metagame unit) coteaz (great HQ, great metagame unit) and deathcult (best opportunity assault unit in the game).

Whats the issue again?

Heya!

Talking strictly "ability to win games" and yea, I'm settled at this point on my IG being better. While the GK bring some lovely tricks to the table and can be stronger in particular matchups, my IG were much more well rounded. I didn't have matchups that I just loathed, like I do with GK's. The other part of that is that it's prohibitively expensive to put "tricks" into the GK army, and the only source is basically the grandmaster. By tricks i mean outflank and similar abilities that affect how you can deploy/react/etc.

And although 10 DCA will gladly assault 30 GH, that situation will never arise unless your opponent is pretty terrible. The reality is more that you'll assault one unit, and be left out to be shot to bits. I'm not saying at all that GK are bad, just that they arent omgzorz broken op'd like the thread states. I don't even think they're the strongest book atm, they're just top 3. YMMV of course, but thats my opinion on em.

Overwatch CNC has it right... GK may be the best put out in 5th ed currently... but they are far from the best EVER in 10 years...

BUT... i disagree with you Andrew.. It just so happens you're a great IG player!

frgsinwntr wrote:Overwatch CNC has it right... GK may be the best put out in 5th ed currently... but they are far from the best EVER in 10 years...

BUT... i disagree with you Andrew.. It just so happens you're a great IG player!

Blah, maybe I'm just a truly mediocre GK player. More and more I consider going back to my IG. Currently if I had to "rank" the top books purely based on the "best" list they can produce, my order would be:

Space Wolves
GK (I don't think they're much worse, but I do think SW edge them out)
IG/BA
DE

Necrons I think have the potential to shake up the top spots, but I just haven't seen enough of them yet.

And yea, in the last 10 years:

-4th Edition was ruled by Nidzilla with a side of tri-holo falcon eldar
-Chaos Lash was re-donculous in it's hayday

GKs are not the most OP dex out right now.

I think that title firmly belongs to the IG. A tank for every problem, an order for every situation.