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Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies. I also play guard and I've never lost to draigowing. You have to analyze the units that you face and find a counter to it. Find its weaknesses. For example: Storm Raven Gunship full of paladins were coming at me and I have two hydra flak tanks shooting right at it ignoring its cover save for being a skimmer. Shot the thing down on turn 2. Then I shot a medusa shot on the pallies. Direct hit and I waved goodbye to pallies as they were pulled off the board.

I believe that all codexes have their pros and cons, their strong units and their bad units. Grey Knights have great units and have an amazing codex. So people shouldn't hate on the army when their army is perfectly capable of facing and beating them.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies. I also play guard and I've never lost to draigowing. You have to analyze the units that you face and find a counter to it. Find its weaknesses. For example: Storm Raven Gunship full of paladins were coming at me and I have two hydra flak tanks shooting right at it ignoring its cover save for being a skimmer. Shot the thing down on turn 2. Then I shot a medusa shot on the pallies. Direct hit and I waved goodbye to pallies as they were pulled off the board.

Overpowered and unbalanced doesn't mean "unbeatable". It means they are only countered by things not readily avilable to most other armies, or have more efficiente versions of powerful tools. Not everyone has hydras to -reliably- pop skimmers and transports from range. In fact, the opposite is true.

I don't think GK are hideaouslt overpowered, but i do believe their basics are one degree higher than other codices, even recent ones, and that can cause them to lean on the weaknesses of other factions with greater force that doesn't necessarily comes from skill. It's in the game, but it can still grate on ya.

Just because you've never lost to Grey Knights with the folks over at your gaming club doesn't mean anything.

Grey Knights are without a doubt the strongest codex going right now. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with what they do, but rather their point costs aren't what they should be.

1- Cheap hq that yields amazing core troops that are undercosted for both the firepower they dish out and their fighting ability (looking at you purifiers).
2- Incredibly accurate anti-tank weaponry that's also heavily undercosted coupled with the ability to basically ignore shaken/stunned shouldn't be overlooked either, that yields them alot of mobility and firepower that isn't properly costed (looking at you dreads)

Take those two factors together and you have a recipe for a really strong list, especially when coupled with a great hammer unit that can score like termies.

GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself.

Sorry, hate to sound like a butthead, but really?
Really?

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

i get a bolter. Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models. I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models. oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

i wont get into the whole terminator thing, or the rest of that codex, i guess really that it doesn't do any good to talk about it.

the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like...

i will say this though....someone earlier stated that we should try switching armies to play the GK army, that way we get a taste of what they dont do well.

i did that...actually...i am painting my friends GK army and i play it. its actually pretty scary. i have a tough time winning and more often than not loose with my vanilla marines. i play his GK, and i haven't lost with them yet, and i have played only a few games with them.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,
but that army is so powerful that it completely made up for any mistakes i made and just tore my opponent up with just vastly superior troops that break the power curve so badly that it makes humpty dumpty look like he has it together.

so yeah, sorry, the whole switching the army thing doesn't work for me. i did that. it sent in the opposite direction that you wanted it too.

they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they arent unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

but its ok, b/c grey knights are just so much more expensive right?

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

which is a fair cost. That's a 25% increase. See point cost calculator below.

Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models.

And everything we have is short ranged.

I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models

That's just an outright lie!

oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

Another outright lie, See point cost calculator. if every Grey knight model was A 2 then yeah, you'd have a point but they aren't. They're expensive and their equipment shows it.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

Boldface lie. The typical strike squad with rhino comes out to around 300, the typical purifier squad is about 250 for a half squad or 350 for a full squad in rhino. 5 points extra PER MODEL, which ironically enough, guess what, that's how much they are.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,

or maybe they're just more to your style? Ever think about that?

if anything makes Grey Knights OP it's psycannons and psydreads, and psycannons are short range. Terminators, maybe but everyone can do that now and their weapons are just different not better.

They might be a little OP but they are not ridiculously OP, Learn to deal, every new army takes a learning curve, stay out of CC with them and out of the range of the psycannons.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies.

Way to invalidate your own point.
Any codex out there can make a list to specifically counter any other codex. It's not that difficult. But competitive environments such as tournaments don't usually allow for people to do so between games so we have to compare balance based on all-comers lists, which, to be honest GKs happen to have a very strong selection which holds off very well in this.

Sc077y wrote:GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself.

"Ridiculously", "aren't", and no, they're not, but we'll continue with your analysis.

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

i get a bolter. Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models. I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models. oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

See "opportunity cost". They can't take those things off, even if they wanted to. Without special character voodoo, there's no individual troop model cheaper than 20 points. Comparing to standard marines isn't really an even assessment, because Tacs (which everyone universally already admits are lackluster) get access to reduced cost plasma/melta AND reduced cost long range firing. GK get psycannons. The lack of AP1/2 is the balancing factor. Even force weapons aren't all that amazing when you only have one attack per model and the same weapon skill as anything that you would really need the force weapons to affect. Again, you require special character voodoo to fill a void in the army.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

His name is Crowe. As far as your argument, well, I must admit I don't really understand where you're coming from. He's really not that good, and he uses up an HQ slot. Having a cheaper HQ unit that can't do anything is not a good thing. As far as purifiers being cheaper, they still don't have relentless psycannons, and they are 20% more expensive than ordinary strikes, and their roles are confused between being more shooty, but being better at assault (despite making them more shooty worsening their melee capabilities). You're paying as much as you would for Sternguard, if not more, and you get no AP 1/2/3, and you have to take a bad HQ.

i wont get into the whole terminator thing, or the rest of that codex, i guess really that it doesn't do any good to talk about it.

Why not? Compare these terminators (even paladins) to Deathwing. I think Deathwing wins out most times because they can get storm shields and CMLs.

the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like...

Those aren't the best either. The best is what you're so comfortable with that you can bring the hardest game you know how to play. This is why Dash wins with Xenos armies people complain about as being underpowered. This is why Stelek still uses his puppies. The army is not as important as the player. In the case of GK, you've got players who had been previously WINNING in 5th edition with DH, of all the things. GK play very similarly. As someone (I think it was Grey Templar) said, a good DH player will be an amazing GK player now that the new codex is out.

i will say this though....someone earlier stated that we should try switching armies to play the GK army, that way we get a taste of what they dont do well.

i did that...actually...i am painting my friends GK army and i play it. its actually pretty scary. i have a tough time winning and more often than not loose with my vanilla marines. i play his GK, and i haven't lost with them yet, and i have played only a few games with them.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,
but that army is so powerful that it completely made up for any mistakes i made and just tore my opponent up with just vastly superior troops that break the power curve so badly that it makes humpty dumpty look like he has it together.

"Lose", not "loose". Your pants are "loose". Your army is not. I had my roommate who was concerned about GK power levels play with them a few times against other people (and myself). He now sees things from my point of view. Further, another friend (who's played against me since when I was still playing DH) was flipping out about GK. He's a good player. I let him use my army, warned him I was going to play 'Nids, and then proceeded to slaughter him with them. Of course, now he thinks that Nids are overpowered, but that's a different story altogether. At the end of the day, I beat someone of my same approximate skill level who was using the "best" codex when I was using the "worst".

At any rate, the plural of anecdote is not data, so both your story and my story are rather meaningless at this point.

so yeah, sorry, the whole switching the army thing doesn't work for me. i did that. it sent in the opposite direction that you wanted it too.

they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they arent unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

but its ok, b/c grey knights are just so much more expensive right?

See, you almost had the right attitude going on there. Griping and moaning isn't going to make them go away, developing a counter to them is. It's what everyone did when IG, SW, and BA came out. It's what I'll do when I start seeing Necrons. It's what we'll all do when the next army comes out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies.

Way to invalidate your own point.
Any codex out there can make a list to specifically counter any other codex. It's not that difficult. But competitive environments such as tournaments don't usually allow for people to do so between games so we have to compare balance based on all-comers lists, which, to be honest GKs happen to have a very strong selection which holds off very well in this.

To be fair, most people do that. Do you bring a considerable amount of AP3? Congratulations, you just brought a list designed to counter MEQ. Do you also include a lot of melta? Congratulations, you also built a list to counter vehicle spam.

I mean, tailoring to counter one specific list isn't viable against unknown opponents and is generally a disservice to both, yourself and your opponent, but everyone "tailors to the meta."

(I cringed a bit when I typed that, but it's true.)

Good article on 3++ about this very topic:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/12/beating-army-grey-knights.html

I HATE INQUISTITION they just sit around and shoot psycannons every where and when that doesn't work they whine and destroy the planet justifying by saying they didn't let us win...

That is a solid read. Does a much better job of saying the things I was trying to.

Sc077y wrote:GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself...
your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot....
the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like......
they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they aren't unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

Best statements of the thread, that's truth right there, well said!

I'd like to see someone who claims that their "disadvantages" just haven't been found yet and people will figure it out, please tell us....

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Augustus wrote:
What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Apparantly, small numbers.

But if you read the 3++ post it blatantly points out they are by far the best all-rounders out there.
And to be honest, their numerical disadvantage really doesn't compare when my CSMs have a similar numerical disadvantage and none of the actual advantages....

Lack of AP2/3?

I don't mind GK because they are just MEQ/TEQ that cost more. They die just the same as marines and each one that dies hurts so much more for my opponent.

There are two people I play quite regularly (of about my standard of play) who have very different opinions on my Paladin list. One plays the rather unfancied Chaos Marines. He hasn't adjusted his list to beat me, just adapted his tactics. We now tend to run very close in games won:lost against each other. The other plays Mechanised Imperial Guard and has an excellent track record with them in competitions. He has tweaked his list several times (not tailoring exactly, he still makes an all-comers list) but hasn't altered his tactics. He's never beaten me.

Whine less and up your game.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Augustus wrote:
What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Apparantly, small numbers.

But if you read the 3++ post it blatantly points out they are by far the best all-rounders out there.
And to be honest, their numerical disadvantage really doesn't compare when my CSMs have a similar numerical disadvantage and none of the actual advantages....

- Mostly medium range shooting.
- No AP 1/2/3 unless you take particular HQs.
- More expensive basic guys.
- 'Confused' (generalist) units.

Comparing CSM to GK would be like comparing DH to BA. Anyone in their right mind would say, "Well, yes, you're comparing in incredibly out of date codex to the really shiny one that just came out. It's not in line with the current edition's rules and meta".

Very valid point.

For the record though Rending falls into the AP 1/2/3 category. Sure, it's not reliably but GKs can get a fair amount of rending thrown in.

Plus the fact every bugger has a power weapon by default (a force weapon even!) helps that flaw considerably.

Medium range shooting seems to be the same territory as Necrons and SoBs, however your generalist nature definately shines.

And in the competitive scene where fixed lists are required? A solid general all-rounder list is diamonds.

I'm now on a Cold One.

(We need sarcasm smilies.)

The other thing is that different GK lists have different disadvantages, which tends to confuse the issue somewhat.

The force weapons are a boon and burden because 1 you can perils and kill your own guys or have eldar/hood shut those down all game long. In competitive play those are more common and even more so since people are anticipating gk showing up. I honestly think the armies popularity is its own downfall. Those storm raven perils missies are horrid to have hit your small squad of gk. Psyk out grenades can make your entire squad go last and get shredded regardless of halberds and quicksilver. Those are a few things anyway that cause me to think that right now their own popularity is their biggest weakness. Plus stuff like Draigo gets misplayed a lot because new players don't remember stuff like brotherhood of psykers, psyk out, how wound allocation works, daemonbane, that in most squads cn use hh OR nfw not both, etc.

Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Build me a list with all these things in it please.

Artemo wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Build me a list with all these things in it please.

You don't need all of it to make a ridiculous list.

That said, you can fit in 6 squads of tri-melta coteaz henchemen in chimeras and 3 psyrifleman dreads along with 2 squads of purifiers in razorbacks and a 5man wound allocation gimmicked paladin squad in a stormraven in a 2000pt list.

Lots of firepower, a dozen medium AV tanks, a deathstar unit, excellent CC troops, min/max'd scoring spam units, some solid psychic powers and psychic defense, highly mobile, and half the vehicles are nigh immune to shaken/stunned results.

Thta doesnt have more firepower then tournament ig lists or sw lists..

Vaktathi wrote:That said, you can fit in 6 squads of tri-melta coteaz henchemen in chimeras and 3 psyrifleman dreads along with 2 squads of purifiers in razorbacks and a 5man wound allocation gimmicked paladin squad in a stormraven in a 2000pt list.

Lots of firepower, a dozen medium AV tanks, a deathstar unit, excellent CC troops, min/max'd scoring spam units, some solid psychic powers and psychic defense, highly mobile, and half the vehicles are nigh immune to shaken/stunned results.

That list doesn't sound very terrifying. You have very fragile troops in Chimeras, 3 Psyflemen for your long range and 2 Squads of Purifiers for Mid/CC. I don't really see the Gimmicky Paladin squad getting near anything, but that's nasty. Seems like a 2k SW or guard list would be a lot nastier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there's the problem. You can do all those things in one GK list, but as with many things you sacrifice the ability to do somethings very well with the ability to do many things halfway decent.

It was basically a list I came up with off the top of my head between calls when asked to include everything in a list.

However, as stated, you don't need all of it, the fact that it's all accessible is the issue. Armies that can literally do everything, do some of it better than anyone else, are poor examples of game balance. And that's the thing with GK's, there's no style of play or avenue of attack that is denied them, they can do it all. They can gunline tankspam, they can mechanized assault, they can deathstar, they psychic-powerbomb, etc and often do all or most of it at the same time.

SW's have many of the same issues, albeit in some different ways.

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

Generally short range, Low model count, still just 3+ T 4.

Stay away from combat and blast them You'll find that casualties hurt them worse than marines. Take care of the psy dreds first, Rinse repeat.

gendoikari87 wrote:

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

Generally short range, Low model count, still just 3+ T 4.

Stay away from combat and blast them You'll find that casualties hurt them worse than marines. Take care of the psy dreds first, Rinse repeat.

This is a really good summary and has worked well for me in the past. Especially hilarious when you're playing something like orks. My biker orks just sit at 16-17" and dakkadakka.

Vaktathi wrote:It was basically a list I came up with off the top of my head between calls when asked to include everything in a list.

However, as stated, you don't need all of it, the fact that it's all accessible is the issue. Armies that can literally do everything, do some of it better than anyone else, are poor examples of game balance. And that's the thing with GK's, there's no style of play or avenue of attack that is denied them, they can do it all. They can gunline tankspam, they can mechanized assault, they can deathstar, they psychic-powerbomb, etc and often do all or most of it at the same time.

SW's have many of the same issues, albeit in some different ways.

I just built your list. I must have assumed upgrades differently, because I didn't have enough points to psyammo the razorbacks, and the purifiers lack daemonhammers.

So, in this list, we have:

1 Support HQ. Coteaz is basically just a utility knife you keep around afterwards to make a bubble of scariness. He's bad to take into melee, and he's lackluster in shooting attacks.

2 Shooty Elites. Without a hammer, the purifiers can easily get munched by a walker/MC. With SotW, even TMC have a decent chance of not getting gibbed by the force weapons. Genestealers would still eat them anyway, if only you could get the can open first.

1 Deathstar. Well, it's a deathstar that has a 5+ invul to instakill by shooting. Over 500 points with its ride.If they leave the bird while the opponent's heavy guns are still up, then they need to stay in melee each round otherwise they're going to get cut to pieces. Honestly, I might still be more afraid of SS/TH Termies. Or Deathwing.

6 Meltavet squads. At 2/3 the price. Did we mention that they're only BS3, have ZERO ablative wounds, and are only Ld7?

1 Fast Skimmer Transport. Weapons are less insane than the BA variant, but you'll have a harder time stopping it for a round. Probably priority number one.

3 Overhyped Long Fangs squads.

In other words:

Outflank protection bubble
Assault protection bubble
12 force weapons
6 psycannons
9 storm bolters
8 heavy bolters (2 are twin-linked)
18 (BS3) meltas
6 twinlinked S8 autocannons
Twin linked multimelta and lascannon

I'm still not very scared, to be honest.

Look at this:

CCS - 4 plasmas, plasma pistol, melta bombs, carapace armor, astropath, chimera

Storm Troopers - 2 plasmaguns

Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Demolisher
Demolisher
Manticore

For a total of

6 plasmaguns
15 (BS4) meltaguns
9 (twin-linked) lascannons
2 S10 large blasts
9 heavy bolters
Manticore missile launcher

This is actually a pretty standard 'all corners' list for me, except I might take a couple powerblobs and HWS, because I'm not hyper-competitive when I don't have to be. I think this list would wipe the floor with the aforementioned GK list. You can't outshoot it, and you can't get close to it. If you don't get first turn as the GK player, you're in serious trouble. Granted, you could say something similar about the IG list, but it at least has other options for entry. The GK list you mentioned starts at your end of the board and ends when one of the two of us is wiped out.

Once again, lost in all of the butthurt internet hyperbole, is the simple fact that GKs have not won nearly as many events (or more importantly best general awards) as either IG or SW. Hell, using win/loss as a metric they fall short of DE, despite more people playing them. So a full year after the end of the world known as the GK release, SW and IG are still dominating... but GK are the most OP book ever? Derp.

Also, don't compare strike squads to tacticals. Compare them to GKs or BA assault squads. Oh boy, ten GK Strike Squad guys are better than 10 SM Tacs. Well, duh, they cost a lot more and do not even bring melta to the table. Straw mans all around on that one. No one thinks Tactical Marines are competitive compared to the other SM books, so thats not a worthwhile comparison at all.

Any day now, the OPness that is GK will rock the tournament scene and then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!! hahahahahaha

Yeah...