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A friend of mine has just started playing a GK army, and another has had his for years.

The Newbie - Bought all the new Models,. Dreadknight, Chibihawk, Corteaz etc. Thinks that a full army of Grey Knight Termies is the way to go. I stomp him.

The Vet - Has about 60 PAGK. Fields the 100 Point hero guy(I don't have the Codex @ work sorry). so thats basically 1300 points in just troops with 1 HQ, and no Fluff (U/grades etc). We fight down to the wire usually.

If you basically field them as Vanilla marines - they are nice. Force weapons have thier hazards though. Hard to beat - yes - impossible to beat - no frakking way.

And I play Vanilla Marines.

GK's do have a weakness of small numbers and (to the Xeno players) over-hyped Marine toughness. Hammerhand and Force Weapons aren't that impressive when Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Boyz slam into them head first. Even Tau armies are rather unfased by them, considering they can Marker away cover saves and increase their BS. Heck, I've never held such high regards for Stealth Suits until I killed an entire Grey Knight squad in a round of shooting. And Crisis Suits? Hah! We already gets insta-gibbed by strength 8 and come in shoals of three, your Force Weapons mean nothing to us!

But I digress. Grey Knights are only scary to other Space Marine players (which is about 50-60% of the players anyway), so I really don't see the big issue here (aside from me being a Xenos).

Its all a matter of perspective. Grey Knights seem overpowered because you let them bother you.

Any day now, the OPness that is GK will rock the tournament scene and then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!! hahahahahaha

Yeah...

Wait for it..... Waiit for it... waiiiiiiiiiiit foooooor iiiiiiiitt.... Wait.... almost there... Wait for it...

Augustus wrote:I'd like to see someone who claims that their "disadvantages" just haven't been found yet and people will figure it out, please tell us....

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

daedalus wrote:- Mostly medium range shooting.

Psyflmen, end of discussion

daedalus wrote:- No AP 1/2/3 unless you take particular HQs.

How about psychic gunships and machine spirit? or... rending, power weapons, volume of fire, irrelevant

daedalus wrote:- More expensive basic guys.

4 points over a regular marine gets you a S5 storm bolter, psychic powers, and a force weapon? and that's a disad?

daedalus wrote:- 'Confused' (generalist) units.

What?

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Still waiting.
(They have nothing. Especially Petre.)

Uh to get str 5 storm bolters you have to pay 20 pts. Thats not a standard storm bolter.

Psyfleman are cheap for their cost but not that good compared to sw, ig, tau etc ranged fire.

Psychic doesnt mean much when there is gloom prism, eldar anti psyker, hoods, shadow in the warp etc.

At least as far as tournaments since everyone expects psykers from many of the top tier armies etc.

As fas as the confused pt its because things like purifiers have cleansing flame but arent ideal for cc since they are typically 5-7 squads in power armor.

You can't treat them like an assault squad. You have to treat them like vanimlla guys and wait for their moment on a weaken squad etc.

Why do you compare them to a regualr marine? There is no regular. You can't even compare a tac marine to gh or ba assault guys who ARE the same cost.

Draigo wrote:

Psyfleman are cheap for their cost but not that good compared to sw, ig, tau etc ranged fire.

In an anti-light/medium AT role? They're superior to the much (deservedly) maligned Vendettas and Long Fangs in terms of engaging AV11/12 tanks, they can move and fire to full effect, you can't stop them from shooting short of killing them or blowing off guns, and they provide solid psychic defense.

What was that about not that good?

Psychic doesnt mean much when there is gloom prism, eldar anti psyker, hoods, shadow in the warp etc.

Many of those are highly situational (lol SitW). Additionally, many armies in the game lack such wargear/special rules entirely or almost so (IG, Tau, DE, Orks, Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, etc). So for the most part, it's other Marine armies, Eldar, and sometimes Tyranids.

As fas as the confused pt its because things like purifiers have cleansing flame but arent ideal for cc since they are typically 5-7 squads in power armor.

2 attacks each with force weapons and an ability that hits every opposing model before blows are struck isn't good in CC? Yeah, their model count may be low, but 7 dudes blasting away with stormbolters at a full 30 strong ork mob and following it with a charge+cleansing flame will utterly annihilate it with enough dudes left over to go at it again and functionally break another mob.

So after reading several pages of this thread, I have to ask (sorta rhetorically) "What's the point of this discussion?"

Since nobody is preventing players from refusing a regular pick-up game, and this thread is in the Tournament Discussions forum, I have to assume that the point here is to get Grey Knights banned from tournaments. However, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anyone really arguing that TO's need to ban Grey Knights. (I don't stop by Tourney Discussions very often, so if you're all TOs then by all means, continue debating).

If the Grey Knight detractors aren't here to get Grey Knights banned, then this entire topic is just a bunch of empty whining. GW isn't going to show up and change things arbitrarily, especially since Grey Knights are a really good source of cash-flow for them.

It's all well and good to debate whether the army is actually too powerful, but the argument has been going in circles for awhile now (even outside this thread). It doesn't look like there's a single new piece of evidence being introduced here. It's the same old points being rehashed over and over by both sides.

If you really think the army is so broken that seeing them across the table ruins your fun, then refuse to play against them. Nobody is stopping you in casual play. If your problem is facing them in tourneys, work with TO's to get them banned or learn to beat them. Otherwise, this entire thread is pointless.

/2cents

You kill a dread with one shot.. vs 3 5 man lf squads you have to hit more then with one good las shot.

Well then wouldnt that point out a flaw that others need psychic defense? I mean isnt that the same issue when JoTWW and blood lance came out as well?

Assuming a full squad gets to close combat sure but thats a best case scenario. I mean armies seem capable to blow up rhinos and then proceed to shoot them just like any other marine.

Draigo wrote:You kill a dread with one shot.. vs 3 5 man lf squads you have to hit more then with one good las shot.

How is that different from *any* vehicle? At the same time, the Rifleman isn't going to care much about scatterlasers, heavy bolters, splinter weapons, etc thrown it's way where the long fangs will. The long fangs are a bit hardier on the whole and can split fire but more static, the rifleman dread is a bit more effective against a single target and more mobile while providing psychic defense. They're both silly, and to try and pass the psyrifleman off as patently worse is even sillier.

Well then wouldnt that point out a flaw that others need psychic defense? I mean isnt that the same issue when JoTWW and blood lance came out as well?

It really has never been a major issue until the newest marine codecies started in on some rather ridiculous psychic powers.

Assuming a full squad gets to close combat sure but thats a best case scenario. I mean armies seem capable to blow up rhinos and then proceed to shoot them just like any other marine.

Yes, that's true, that doesn't mean they can't be abusive however, especially considering the fact that all you need is a single purifier to make it into contact with a big squad of orks or gaunts or what have you to kill damn near half the unit without even needing to swing.

No whats silly is a guard player saying other vehicles are silly.. IG has been the kings of silly cheap vehicles and had no rival till possibly the furioso dread. Vendettas are just as corny and sport more firepower.

No? You don't think Eldar powers or Lash never were an issue? Really?

Well it's hard to defend cleansing flame since I am not a fan of it from the perspective that I think it's silly and out of place on a weaker cc ish unit. I liked the puriifiers more for the psycannon spam.

Xca|iber wrote:
It's all well and good to debate whether the army is actually too powerful, but the argument has been going in circles for awhile now (even outside this thread). It doesn't look like there's a single new piece of evidence being introduced here. It's the same old points being rehashed over and over by both sides.

Yeah, I was kind of feeling that with my reply earlier. I'm through at this point, at least until this topic rolls a 4+ to reincarnate yet again 14 days from now.

Draigo wrote:No whats silly is a guard player saying other vehicles are silly.

I have playable armies of IG, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Eldar and Tau, what of it?

If the only refutation of my argument is "well you play IG!", well, I think my point's been made.

IG has been the kings of silly cheap vehicles and had no rival till possibly the furioso dread.

That's sorta their thing. Notice the almost total lack of CC capability, especially elite CC shock troops, psychic defense, or ridiculously crazy psychic powers (one might make a case for the PBS morale ability, but you've got to not only be able to get the power off but then also hit the enemy hard enough cause a morale test so the reduced Ld means something, and given how many Fearless things are in the game...)

Vendettas are just as corny and sport more firepower.

I do seem to remember having mentioned the Vendetta just a few posts above...

however they're in an army that pretty much just does heavy weapon shooting spam, not an army that can pack in a bunch of elite CC troops, crazy henchmen units, assault transports, vehicle psychic powers that make shake/stun results almost entirely ignorable for basically 5pts, and combat walkers on top of their heavy weapon spam.

No? You don't think Eldar powers or Lash never were an issue? Really?

Eldar? Not really. The 4E skimmer rules and Holofields? A thousand times yes, but their psychic powers being a humongous balance issue? not really, especially considering how much the army relies on them to function with T3 4+sv units that cost as much as Space Marines. Lash, sure if you're not playing a mechanized list, but that army also can't muster the same sort of power in other areas that the newer marine books can on top of that psychic power.

Well it's hard to defend cleansing flame since I am not a fan of it from the perspective that I think it's silly and out of place on a weaker cc ish unit. I liked the puriifiers more for the psycannon spam.

which isn't much better, up to 8 BS4 S7 AP4 Rending shots for 20pts is also a wee bit silly.

Augustus wrote:(They have nothing. Especially Petre.)

2 things.
1.) PRETRE. There's an R in there.
2.) I haven't even posted anything in days other than a link to 3++. What's your major malfunction?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Secondly, I'll come back to the point that has been made again and again and no one has refuted.

You are all giving us reasons why GK are broken IN THEORY. So IN PRACTICE why are they not dominating the tournament scene? Oh yeah, because they aren't broken.

Holy crap there are some seriously butthurt people in this thread. A four shot S8 AV12 platform is really that game breaking? How did you people ever survive long fangs and hydras?

Seriously, though some of you guys (particularly Augustus) come off sounding like frothing at the mouth tinfoil hat wearing loonies. I mean, I don't like army imbalance either, but the ALL of the non-anecdotal evidence still points towards SK and IG being the top dogs. I know I am far more fearful of facing Wolves that I ever am taking on GKs, personally.

No one ever said SW weren't over-powered, just that GK also are. Long Fangs are still ridiculously stupid for their points. Hydras, however, are only S7.

Just do a base comparison between tac marines and either GKSS (or Grey Hunters), and it's not hard to see that tac marines get the short end of the stick. A stormbolter and power weapon, plus hammerhand, for 4 points is nuts.

Compare GK termies with Marine termies. The Gks get a better selection of CC weapons, psychic power, cheaper and/or better heavy weapons. A psycannon is cheaper than an assault cannon for SM terminators? An incernator, at +1s, is the same price as a heavy flamer?

In a game that's basic design calls for two armies of equal points to be a fair match, it's clear that GK are simply better than their equivalent space marines. But, it's GW, so par for the course really.

Redbeard wrote:
In a game that's basic design calls for two armies of equal points to be a fair match, it's clear that GK are simply better than their equivalent space marines. But, it's GW, so par for the course really.

You can't compare choices between codexes unless you compare the whole codex. C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

Not saying that 40k is super balanced, but comparing choices between codexes just isn't going to work.

It's a decent starting point for discussion though.

Da Boss wrote:It's a decent starting point for discussion though.

/shrug Sure... Part of the balancing act of codexes is the whole picture of the codex.

Most SM codexes were designed with this idea that they give something up in order to get something else. Whether what they gave up is worth what they got is often the point of contention. Because of this design philosophy, it is difficult to compare codexes unless you compare everything they have to everything that the other codex has. C: SM has reliable prolific melta; C: GK doesn't. C: SM can do a highly mobile, highly durable biker army. C: GK cannot do highly mobile unless they go mech. Etc.

So theoretically... GK get cheaper close range fire power, NFW, etc because they are shafted in the melta, long range and mobility departments along with higher points costs and lower model counts. Whether that balances or not is the subject of debate.

The only "problem" with the GK is it is powerful and relatively cheap to build an all-comers list. That is leading to its popularity. You can build competitive lists with other armies but you are going to be spending significantly more to build them.

As far as GK dominating in Hard Boys as far as popularity, it stands to reason. They are hard pressed at 1500 to get resiliency and numbers. It is going to get easy to get flexibility and numbers out there for 2500.

DAaddict wrote:As far as GK dominating in Hard Boys as far as popularity, it stands to reason. They are hard pressed at 1500 to get resiliency and numbers. It is going to get easy to get flexibility and numbers out there for 2500.

Too bad they didn't dominate in finals.

Phazael wrote:Holy crap there are some seriously butthurt people in this thread. A four shot S8 AV12 platform is really that game breaking?

A mobile platform with that sort of firepower for its cost, plus its ability to ignore stunned/shaken results, plus excellent anti-psyker defense, and ability to be taken en-masse at almost any points level, yeah, it's a wee bit silly.

How did you people ever survive long fangs and hydras?

You'll notice that Long Fangs get just as many complaints. Hydras are BS3 and S7 and can't move and fire very effectively.

C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

GK's don't exactly lack for melta weaponry, they've got Dreads, stormravens, henchmen, Land Raiders, karamazov, etc. they can't take it in every single unit, but they've got plenty of options to take it if they want it. As for long range firepower, again, they aren't lacking for it too much between the above units plus razorbacks/chimeras.

pretre wrote:
You can't compare choices between codexes unless you compare the whole codex.

Yes you can. I just did.

C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

If the SM player took longer-range choices.

Not saying that 40k is super balanced, but comparing choices between codexes just isn't going to work.

This is what GW designers want you to think. This is what they believe will excuse their shoddy design work. And it's untrue. You most definitely can compare choices between codexes. In fact, it's a good idea.

The basic tenet of the game is that if we both spend the same number of points, we'll have a fair game. That's right there in the rulebook, in the roman number pages. It doesn't say, you'll have a fair game if you take choices with longer range, it says if you take the same number of points.

This is a legal 500 point space marine army:

1 captain w/ power sword (115)
10 tacticals, Sgt w/ powerfist, man with flamer, man with heavy bolter. (195)
10 Tactical, sgt w/ power weapon, man w/ melta, man w/ missile. (190)

This is a legal 500 point GK army:
Brotherhood Champion (100)
10 GKSS (200)
10 GKSS (200)

Why can't I compare these? And, do you think that, given the deployments in the book missions, that the one missile and one heavy bolter are going to have more of an effect than the GKs getting twice the shots at the 24" range?

The GKs outshoot the tacticals at the ranges that matter. They also out-fight the tacticals. They also out-maneuver the tacticals, as the tacs need to remain still to bring their guns to bear, while the knights can keep moving wherever they need to, whether that's towards an objective, towards, or away, from their opponent, or simply to get cover.

The idea that you should not, or cannot, compare choices between codexes is ludicrous, and it is a poor excuse for bad design. You say 'well, your army can make up its deficiencies in other slots' - well, what if I don't take the other slots. Or, perhaps worse, what if those other slots get such an advantage that I don't even take the units to be compared. Ever wonder why some choices in every codex end up as trash and others are spammed? It's due to poor design. It's due to GW designers not taking the time to make these comparisons themselves.

In terms of troops, the comparisons between codexes are even more relevant. They're not something you can avoid. And the codexes with poor troop options are often consigned to the designation of 'bad army', or 'uncompetitive'. Troops need to be able to do certain things. They need to not roll over in a stiff breeze. They need to be able to get to objectives when it matters. They need to be generalists, ideally with some anti-mech as well as some anti-infantry. They often need to be able to affect the game while simultaneously holding objectives.

Comparing the troops from one codex to the troops from another is one of the first steps a competitive player will take when evaluating whether they want to play the army. You have to have them. Which ones are good, which ones are crap. Which ones can you avoid entirely with tricky force-org manipulation. And, when you look at which codexes are still considered top, or even mid tier, it's those with quality troops that can do all of the above. The codexes that cannot do this suffer.

You know that there's something wrong with a codex when competitive players say their basic troops (strikes) suck, and yet it's easy to demonstrate that their basic troop is still better than those found in other codexes. If that's not a sign that a book is overpowered, I don't know what is.

Vaktathi wrote:Hydras are BS3 and S7 and can't move and fire very effectively.

Hydras don't need to move.

GK's don't exactly lack for melta weaponry, they've got Dreads, stormravens, henchmen, Land Raiders, karamazov, etc. they can't take it in every single unit, but they've got plenty of options to take it if they want it. As for long range firepower, again, they aren't lacking for it too much between the above units plus razorbacks/chimeras.

Dreads? But I thought OMG Psyflemen!!!
Stormravens? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.
Henchmen? BS3 and LD7 is not reliable. Notice I said reliable. Also requires a special character.
Land Raiders? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.
Karamazov? Lol.

Long range firepower?
Psyflemen. Check.
Heavy bolter backs. Kinda check. S6 is okay.
Multilasers (requires Inquisitor). Again with the strength six. Check
Lascannon Type Razorbacks. Check.

Now compare that to an army with missile launchers in Fast, Troops, Heavy and Elites that can also get the Lascannon Razorbacks, plus other long range nastiness. GK have less long range firepower and less reliable, more expensive and less available melta.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:This is a legal 500 point space marine army:

1 captain w/ power sword (115)
10 tacticals, Sgt w/ powerfist, man with flamer, man with heavy bolter. (195)
10 Tactical, sgt w/ power weapon, man w/ melta, man w/ missile. (190)

This is a legal 500 point GK army:
Brotherhood Champion (100)
10 GKSS (200)
10 GKSS (200)

That is a bad 500 point SM army. Granted it is also a bad GK army though. Yeah, the GK will probably win that one. How about making two lists that don't stink though? (and 500 points is a horrible point value for balance). At 500, I'd probably go scouts, libby and land speeders or somesuch rather than tacs. As for GK, I'd go SS and Razorbacks with Brochamp.


And I disagree with your basic premise of comparing just the entries. Comparing lists is much better.

pretre wrote:
Hydras don't need to move.

Ever ever? Wish my Hydras knew that. Nothing ever sits where they don't have LoS or gets into a position to threaten the hydras and necessitates their movement, or plays Dawn of War, or anything like that, that of course never happens.

Dreads? But I thought OMG Psyflemen!!!

O_o yes...psyrifleman, zomg you can also give them various forms of melta weaponry if you feel you need it.

Stormravens? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.

It's there, it's a fairly often utilized unit, yes it's very much an option.

Henchmen? BS3 and LD7 is not reliable. Notice I said reliable. Also requires a special character.

BS3 but you can take 3 of them, that's plenty reliable, moreso in fact than the much desired BA/CSM double-melta. Nobody cares about Ld7 when you're sitting in a Chimera and can take higher Ld models in the unit. The SC is only required to make them spammable troops, and is a steal of an SC.

Land Raiders? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.

See Stormraven.

Karamazov? Lol.

Again, he's there.


Melta is there if you want/need it, often on units that are already being taken.

Long range firepower?
Psyflemen. Check.
Heavy bolter backs. Kinda check. S6 is okay.
Multilasers (requires Inquisitor). Again with the strength six. Check
Lascannon Type Razorbacks. Check.

Now compare that to an army with missile launchers in Fast, Troops, Heavy and Elites that can also get the Lascannon Razorbacks, plus other long range nastiness. GK have less long range firepower and less reliable, more expensive and less available melta.

heavy weapons in C:SM troops units are relatively rarely utilized and the units make for rather expensive HW platforms, most would gladly swap for double-special. GK's can take razorbacks in tons of units. The big thing is not having spammable missile platforms in FA.

And again. If the codex is so broken, where are the results of this brokenness?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:Melta is there if you want/need it, often on units that are already being taken.

You're missing the point. I didn't say it wasn't there. I said C:SM gets it cheaper, easier and more reliably.

heavy weapons in C:SM troops units are relatively rarely utilized and the units make for rather expensive HW platforms, most would gladly swap for double-special. GK's can take razorbacks in tons of units. The big thing is not having spammable missile platforms in FA.

Again, you're missing the point. C:SM gets it cheaper, easier, in more FOC slots and more reliably than GK does.

This thread has inspired me to break out my old Squat models and use them as Grey Knights. After all, they are using Squat technology in their armies anyway so I might as well.

But considering I've never lost to a Grey Knight army and I play Eldar, I don't see where the "Grey Knights are overpowered!" nonsense is coming from.

If they were so overpowered, wouldn't they be able to kill my Eldar army easily considering I'm using an old 4th edition codex? I mean seriously...they should be stomping on all the older codexes and they arent. That tells me it's just an over reaction by some players.

Roadkill Zombie wrote: I mean seriously...they should be stomping on all the older codexes and they arent. That tells me it's just an over reaction by some players.

This has been brought up repeatedly and no one has been able to show any evidence that GK are Op other than comparing what they have available to other codexes. Empirical evidence has been pretty thin.

I find that line of reasoning funny. If someone doesn't like that their codex doesn't have the shiny new toys of a different codex, then change to the one that has the shiny new toys and quit complaining about it.

But don't expect every army to have the same toys, that would be a pretty boring game.

I don't even see this all comers argument, honestly. A Wolf player can drop some Long Wangs and a Runepriest and plop down a bunch of cookie cutter Grey Hunters and this list can tackle literally everything out there with large numbers of guys. Guard can bubble wrap three manticores with meltavets and win most of their games on autopilot. Even Dark Angels can spam troop terms with a mix of Hamminators and Whilwinds, backed by some speeders, and bring more stability and flexibility to the table than GKs. Hell, the Vulanator SM list is a rougher fight for nearly all of my armies than any GK list I have faced so far.

GKs have a belwildering array of choices and special rules (as do Wolves), but very few of them are especially efficient, other than the highly situational Psyflemen, the (admitedly too good for the points) Halberd Purifiers, and Crusader Henchmen. In fact, you are really talking about three main builds that are radically different with the GKs and each have their flaws.

Draigowing-
Blackmoore took this one the furthest of any GK tourney list and even then he was unable to overcome the raw efficiency of Grey Hunter spam. I cannot see a low model count foot sloggy list consistantly doing well in a metagame with tons of melta and other S8 floating around, either, though Alan obviously made it work for him.

Purifier Spam-
People complain about this list, but the shooty purifiers are a generalist unit that gets two S7 24" shots when its on the move, meaning they get outranged by every army out there that is not Tyranids. Cleansing Flame is the biggest problem here, but that really only cripples Orks and other Xenos armies which GW (and most of the community) seem to not give a crap about. I have yet to see this varient get very far in any tournament, so its mostly internet hyperbole at this point, because at the end of the day they are 25 point marines that have to ride in a rhino body to get into the fight, and no army worth its salt should have an issue killing rhinos.

Henchmen Spam-
This is the list I run and I think its problematic for other Razorspam armies due to Fortitude and the cheaper Psybacks. It still has limited range, outside of the Psyflemen. It also lacks any sort of CC threat outside of one henchmen unit (if people bring it) that is mostly T3 and requires an expensive transport to get in. It also fails mightily to infantry heavy lists, though those are a rare sight these days.

So the common weaknesses here would be:
1) Lack of ability to kill AV13-14 at range-
Outside of three man meltaderps in the henchmen list, you are relying on thunderhammers and rending to get the job done against Land Raiders. The complete lack of drop pods furthe diminishes any effort to kill mech targets early. Psyflemen do not do much of anything to AV13-14 targets. So I guess people need to run more Land Raiders, Vindicators, and Russes in local metas with lots of GKs.

2) Low body count in non-henchment armies-
In the purifier list, you are (with Crow Tax) essentially paying 30 points per man, if you field 30ish guys. Thats 900 points of your army for 30 men that are still huffing it on foot. Draigowing is even more restrictive, especially if you tool up the unit to fully abuse wound allocation. This leaves the henchmen army as the only high model count army and that list revolves around 3-5 man guardsmen unit in av11 hulls, which every army serious about competing in the current game should be able to contend with. Even fully spamming, at 2k points, my list (with 8 razors) only ends up with 35 infantry and most of those are guardsmen in flak armor. Even the most basic of vanilla marine armies starts with a higher model count than that, just in troops alone. People are simply not bringing enough basic guys to the table and GKs will definately punish that behavior. More boots on the gound will, coincidentally, also help loads against Guard and Wolves too.

3) Dependance on Psychic powers to get full value-
While especially true of the henchmen list, any other build really leans on its psychic tests. Tossing a hood will cut the efficiency way way down. Runes of Warding hoses the entire army. Most armies can get descent psy defense for 100ish points, often with other applications to the army at hand. The Xenos armies, once again, are screwed on this front, but hey no one seems to care about them, anyhow so they can just take it in the pooper like a boss I guess.

So, in sumation, more AV14, more guys, and adding a hood are all good methods for capitolizing on the weak spots of the army. Conicidentally, nearly every imperial army has easy access to all three of those solutions.

Here's some actual battle results:

jy2 runs a lot of GK matches


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415949.page
GK vs C:SM. C:SM Won. 1000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410322.page
GK vs New Old Necrons. GK won. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/404033.page
GK vs BA. Draw. 2500 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402410.page
GK vs Tyranids. Gk won. 2500 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/386276.page
GK vs Tau. GK won. 2000 pts
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/381530.page
GK vs Tau. Tau Won. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384680.page
Gk vs Nids. GK won. 2500 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380265.page
Gk vs Nids. Draw. 1850 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/378310.page
Gk vs GK. Draw (lol). 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369911.page
Gk vs SW. GK win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365434.page
GK vs Nids. Nids win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362979.page
Gk vs BW Orks. Gk win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364017.page
Gk vs Tau. Draw. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354103.page
Gk vs C:WH. WH Win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361358.page
GK vs Orks. Orks win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361358.page
GK vs Daemons. Daemons win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/359443.page
GK vs IG. GK win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/356817.page
GK vs Nids. GK win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/356527.page
GK vs IG. GK win. 2000 pts.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355881.page
GK vs Eldar. GK Win. 2000 pts.

That's back to March.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So doing the math:
GK wins: 10
GK Losses: 6 (including one against Daemons)
Draws: 4

That's not 'OMG OP'. From what I have seen, jy2 is a good general too. Keep in mind that these arelosses against Tyranids, Daemons, Tau and Orks in there too and he actually didn't lose to any MEQ other than C:SM at 1000 points.