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Abandon wrote:Doing multiple assaults every chance you get is not the outcome of what I've been arguing. If you think I'm just giving the run around I'll sum it up for you.

Yes it is. You are arguing that the rules state that you have to perform "Mandatory Multiple Assaults" if possible. Is this not true? I do not think you are giving anybody the run around. You believe you are right, and that EVERYBODY ELSE is wrong. So be it. I ask again; have you insisted that any of your opponents make multi-assaults "if possible", and, if so, what was the outcome?

Abandon wrote:It says you can, not that you must
-This is correct but you are compelled to consider all the possible things your model can do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This makes some things your model can do become things it must do.

Please stop ignoring the context of the section.
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"
Refers to the section about one unit assaulting one other unit.

Those rules are in place to make sure you get as many models in base contact with the unit you are assaulting.

It even specifically forbids getting into base contact with another unit.

The only place it allows you to do so is in the multiple enemies section, and that is an OPTIONAL provision.

If you can not understand that, then we can give you no more help.

Abandon wrote:

If your going to assault an additional unit you must declare so. This establishes a state of assault in relation to the enemy unit and allows your models to make base contact.
-This actually made the most sense but unfortunately is entirely fabricated. It is not in the RAW. You are only given permission to declare an assault on one unit and does not require you to make further declarations to assault others.

Well, obviously, I disagree.

You're still making the same assumption I pointed out earlier; you are claiming, without support, that 'assaulting' is identical to 'moving into base contact with/engaging in close combat'. But that is manifestly untrue. Moving into base contact is clearly NOT the same as assaulting, since you must assault BEFORE you can move into base contact; engaging in close combat is also not the same, because the word 'assaulting' only ever refers to the move which initiates the first round, and 'close-combat' is used instead for the actual rounds of fighting that ensue. 'Assaulting', the word we're arguing about, must necessarily be something different; namely, a relationship which allows you to move into base contact and initiate close-combat. Whether you 'declare' vocally or not, without that state existing you still cannot move into base contact.

So, now; To say 'your models' can put themselves in that state ('assaulting') is the same as saying that 'you' can put them in that state.

Why? Because it is presented as an OPTION, not a requirement, meaning it requires a decision that only you can make. Remember, the requirement to move into base contact with all possible enemy models is not yet relevant; what's being considered is a potential modification to what targets are 'possible'. Your models MAY make that modification; they are, however, never REQUIRED to do so. Models cannot, of course, make a decision between two options, any more than models can physically move themselves; that being so, you must so for them, just like you move your models around the table.

If you decide to assault a unit, then the models in that unit are added to the category of models that it is 'possible' to enter base contact with. Then the requirement kicks in, and you MUST do so if you can.

But if you don't, the unit in question never enters that category at all; and since it isn't possible to move into base contact, you are not required to do so.

Mannahnin wrote:

In the moving assaulting models section it states your models "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting", since you've only declared against one unit it means you cannot make base contact with other units models.
-Seriously? This would make moving into multiple assaults impossible since you could never move your models into base contact with another units models. Bear in mind this is a rule for moving assaulting models and is always observed even in multiple assaults. Since this would subvert the whole subheading this view of the statement cannot be correct and should be rethought.

Your conclusion here is entirely false. You are disregarding a rule, rather than figuring out how and why it works. There is an IMPLICIT requirement here that a decision be made to assault or not assault other units adjacent to the original declared target.

I'm not disregarding this rule at all. The rule only states you must be assaulting(charging into combat with) the unit to make base contact with there units, not that you need to have declared assault on it.


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Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:Doing multiple assaults every chance you get is not the outcome of what I've been arguing. If you think I'm just giving the run around I'll sum it up for you.

Yes it is. You are arguing that the rules state that you have to perform "Mandatory Multiple Assaults" if possible. Is this not true? I do not think you are giving anybody the run around. You believe you are right, and that EVERYBODY ELSE is wrong. So be it. I ask again; have you insisted that any of your opponents make multi-assaults "if possible", and, if so, what was the outcome?

Perhaps you should coprehesively read the posts before adding one of your own. No, I never said every time possible. Yes, I have played games this way and the friends I play with are willing to see the logic in my arguments(much easier when you can discuss it in person). Honestly it does not make much difference since it does not come up very often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:It says you can, not that you must
-This is correct but you are compelled to consider all the possible things your model can do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This makes some things your model can do become things it must do.

Please stop ignoring the context of the section.
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"
Refers to the section about one unit assaulting one other unit.

Those rules are in place to make sure you get as many models in base contact with the unit you are assaulting.

It even specifically forbids getting into base contact with another unit.

The only place it allows you to do so is in the multiple enemies section, and that is an OPTIONAL provision.

If you can not understand that, then we can give you no more help.

I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Abandon wrote:I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Yes, your incorrect point stands...

You have asserted that you have a point, which we have proven to be incorrect.

We do not agree, because your argument is false, everyone but you can see this.

Abandon wrote:

I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Bit early to declare victory, as you haven't addressed my last post yet.

To be specific; your whole argument depends on the idea that 'assaulting' and 'moving into close combat with' are the same thing. That's incorrect. You must be 'assaulting' BEFORE you can move into close combat; it's not possible for the two to be identical.

Abandon wrote:No, I never said every time possible.

Abandon wrote:I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

What do you mean by 'comprehensively read'? Does that mean read your posts and comprehend what you are saying? I understand exactly what your idea is. I understand completely where and why you feel like this is the correct rules interpretation. I also think you are totally wrong. Do I only comprehend if I agree?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:

If your going to assault an additional unit you must declare so. This establishes a state of assault in relation to the enemy unit and allows your models to make base contact.
-This actually made the most sense but unfortunately is entirely fabricated. It is not in the RAW. You are only given permission to declare an assault on one unit and does not require you to make further declarations to assault others.

Well, obviously, I disagree.

You're still making the same assumption I pointed out earlier; you are claiming, without support, that 'assaulting' is identical to 'moving into base contact with/engaging in close combat'. But that is manifestly untrue. Moving into base contact is clearly NOT the same as assaulting, since you must assault BEFORE you can move into base contact; engaging in close combat is also not the same, because the word 'assaulting' only ever refers to the move which initiates the first round, and 'close-combat' is used instead for the actual rounds of fighting that ensue. 'Assaulting', the word we're arguing about, must necessarily be something different; namely, a relationship which allows you to move into base contact and initiate close-combat. Whether you 'declare' vocally or not, without that state existing you still cannot move into base contact.

So, now; To say 'your models' can put themselves in that state ('assaulting') is the same as saying that 'you' can put them in that state.

Why? Because it is presented as an OPTION, not a requirement, meaning it requires a decision that only you can make. Remember, the requirement to move into base contact with all possible enemy models is not yet relevant; what's being considered is a potential modification to what targets are 'possible'. Your models MAY make that modification; they are, however, never REQUIRED to do so. Models cannot, of course, make a decision between two options, any more than models can physically move themselves; that being so, you must so for them, just like you move your models around the table.

If you decide to assault a unit, then the models in that unit are added to the category of models that it is 'possible' to enter base contact with. Then the requirement kicks in, and you MUST do so if you can.

But if you don't, the unit in question never enters that category at all; and since it isn't possible to move into base contact, you are not required to do so.

Sorry I didn't have time to respond last night. I was at work and busy.

Either way you look at it it's a bit of an assumption. I'm assauming what is meant by assaulting is making an assault move into base contact, AKA charging. You believe you must be in a state of assaulting a unit before you can make your assault move against them into base contact.

By your logic the models in the assaulting units 'state' would necessarily need be changed to assaulting nearby enemy units by the text that says "models can assault models belonging to other enemy units". You are not given the choice over this, the models are made able to assault other units by this rule and by your thinking they would have to be automanticly placed in a relation of assault with those units for this to be true. It is not permitted that you can decide their state in any way and has the same result as my simpler view. Either way you dress it up it's the same rule.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:No, I never said every time possible.

Abandon wrote:I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

What do you mean by 'comprehensively read'? Does that mean read your posts and comprehend what you are saying? I understand exactly what your idea is. I understand completely where and why you feel like this is the correct rules interpretation. I also think you are totally wrong. Do I only comprehend if I agree?

You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given in some of my posts and I was encouraging you to try to recognize what was actually being stated before you comment so that a logical discourse could proceed.

Abandon wrote:You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given.

Your comprehension of that section is still incorrect.

As it stands you are forbidden from contacting other units.

Multiple assaults allows you to contact other units if you want to.

It is not mandatory. Your argument has been proven incorrect. How do you not understand?

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given.

Your comprehension of that section is still incorrect.

As it stands you are forbidden from contacting other units.

Multiple assaults allows you to contact other units if you want to.

It is not mandatory. Your argument has been proven incorrect. How do you not understand?

This makes no sense at all. The rules for attacking multiple units state you must do so following the rules for moving assaulting models.
"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

You say the rules for moving forbid the assaulting unit form making base contact with other units refing to the text "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

These two rules could not sensibly co-exist so I belive you are mistaken in the meaning of the text.

Abandon wrote:
This makes no sense at all. The rules for attacking multiple units state you must do so following the rules for moving assaulting models.
"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

You say the rules for moving forbid the assaulting unit form making base contact with other units refing to the text "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

These two rules could not sensibly co-exist so I belive you are mistaken in the meaning of the text.

The Bold Italics, and Underlined above is what you are not comprehending.

The remaining models CAN (Not must) assault models belonging to other enemy units. Had it said must your argument would be true, but it does not so your argument is false.

They can, and if you choose to, then, and only then, does the "as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" clause come into play.

It is all right there.

DeathReaper wrote:

The remaining models CAN (Not must) assault models belonging to other enemy units. Had it said must your argument would be true, but it does not so your argument is false.

They can, and if you choose to, then, and only then, does the "as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" clause come into play.

It is all right there.

Yes, they can assault other units models. The point is they are then considered valid targets for the assault move in which you must get into base contact with any enemy model not already in base contact with an assaulting model if possible.

I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

Abandon wrote:
I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

This is the crux of the debate here. Most people (including me) are interpreting that sentence as, to paraphrase, "you can choose to allow your models to assault any. . ." etc. You, on the other hand, are interpreting it as "models have the ability to assault any unit. . ." etc.

As is usually the case when an argument reaches the grammatical level, it can perfectly well be read both ways, unfortunately.

Abandon, Mann said it best.

Mannahnin wrote:You're still disregarding the prohibition on moving into contact with units you're not assaulting. Your interpretation renders this prohibition meaningless, and thus cannot be correct.

A choice has to be made to engage any given unit. Once that choice is made, models in that unit become legal options for the assault moves sequence. But not until the assaulting player makes that choice..

Even the 'Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units' section (Third paragraph) says: "If the assaulting unit shot in the Shooting Phase then it must declare its assault against the unit it shot at, but CAN engage other enemies" They CAN engage enemies. It does not say that they MUST. Big difference.

Are you also going to claim that all units that shoot must declare an assault because of this?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:
I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

This is the crux of the debate here. Most people (including me) are interpreting that sentence as, to paraphrase, "you can choose to allow your models to assault any. . ." etc. You, on the other hand, are interpreting it as "models have the ability to assault any unit. . ." etc.

As is usually the case when an argument reaches the grammatical level, it can perfectly well be read both ways, unfortunately.

Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. Most permissions or abilities models possess are things you can utilize or not and this one appears so as well by the wording it's stated in. When this option comes up though you are in the middle of an assault move in which is telling your model to preforem certain actions if at all possible. Remembering the assaulting model can "assault models belonging to other enemy units" would basicly not change the wording of those actions they are mandating at all "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This seems to me the most seamless way to view it since "any enemy model" is not what is said when something more specific is meant.

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

This. Only I would say "infer", rather than "assume", as I think the implication is present and clear from the context.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Abandon wrote:Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models [belonging to units that you are assaulting] and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not to be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Fixed that for you with the orange.

As insaniak said "... this [your] argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless."

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models [belonging to units that you are assaulting] and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not to be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Fixed that for you with the orange.

As insaniak said "... this [your] argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless."

Yeah.. I just addressed that point in the post you just edited and quoted. The orange text adds nothing to the content of the statement as it was already in there... Am glad to hear you agree with insaniak but the reason why would be more productive.

Abandon, just so I understand. Your claim is that when assaulting, models must move into contact with an enemy model if possible, despite the fact that you are not allowed to move into contact with an enemy model you are not assaulting?

Abandon wrote:Am glad to hear you agree with insaniak but the reason why would be more productive.

I have already told you why.

You are ignoring the context of the rules.

If you do not ignore the context, then you will understand why multiple assaults are optional.

Abandon wrote:This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails.

Do you honestly not see the circular logic there?

You have to be assaulting them to move into base contact, but by moving into base contact you are assaulting them. That's what your argument leads to.

Happyjew wrote:Abandon, just so I understand. Your claim is that when assaulting, models must move into contact with an enemy model if possible, despite the fact that you are not allowed to move into contact with an enemy model you are not assaulting?

In essence yes but without the conflict you denote. Assaulting models(after the first) are permitted to assault models from any enemy unit. That permission given by the rules allows those models to make an assault move into base contact with any enemy model within reach. I am simply applying that to the rules for moving assaulting models and stating you are not permitted to ignore it.

What conflict am I denoting? The rules say
a) models must move into base contact with a model in the unit(s) you are assaulting if possible.
b) you may not move into base contact with model(s) in a unit unless you are assaulting that unit.

Those are both RAW, however as I understand it, you believe, that you move into contact with another unit, even though the rules specifically forbid it.

Mannahnin wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

This. Only I would say "infer", rather than "assume", as I think the implication is present and clear from the context.

Assume was the correct word. By its wording it seems to say the model can be in a state of assaulting another unit or it can not be in a state of assaulting another unit. It does not infer that you can decide nor can it be safely assumed especially since this occurs during an assault in which time most states of the model are being decided by the rules. Out of all the possible things the model can do, they decide what it will do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model".

What then does the prohibition on moving into contact with a model from a unit you are NOT assaulting mean?

Happyjew wrote:What conflict am I denoting? The rules say
a) models must move into base contact with a model in the unit(s) you are assaulting if possible.
b) you may not move into base contact with model(s) in a unit unless you are assaulting that unit.

Those are both RAW, however as I understand it, you believe, that you move into contact with another unit, even though the rules specifically forbid it.

In your opinion then, please tell how you are ever going to assault an additional unit without making base contact. Bearing in mind you are not permitted to declare a second assault(silently or otherwise).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:What then does the prohibition on moving into contact with a model from a unit you are NOT assaulting mean?

If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

Abandon wrote:If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

I gave you the reference earlier in the thread to the rule that states that all models in base contact fight in the round of combat.

Once again, the section that details moving your assaulting models is dealing with moving your assaulting models. Determining who fights is then covered in the section rather cleverly entitled 'Who Can Fight?'

So the rule that tells us that you can't move into base contact with a model from a unit you are not assaulting is, strangely enough, dealing with how you move your assaulting models. It is not telling you whether or not they will hit anyone when it comes time to roll your attacks, It is telling you that you can't move into base contact unless you are assaulting. In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact'.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

I gave you the reference earlier in the thread to the rule that states that all models in base contact fight in the round of combat.

Once again, the section that details moving your assaulting models is dealing with moving your assaulting models. Determining who fights is then covered in the section rather cleverly entitled 'Who Can Fight?'

So the rule that tells us that you can't move into base contact with a model from a unit you are not assaulting is, strangely enough, dealing with how you move your assaulting models. It is not telling you whether or not they will hit anyone when it comes time to roll your attacks, It is telling you that you can't move into base contact unless you are assaulting. In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact'.

Yes they would fight but without an assault there is no defenders react, assalting through cover would not matter, etc. It's not just about who is engaged. This rule is necessary to ensure the proper assault sequence occurs and is not bypassed by clever rules lawyers. Its crucial that they state that base contact can only be made by assaulting not matter how you look at it. It IMO your reading way to much into it. The rules state:
"model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"
"models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"
"may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

If there is more than one unit in range of your second models assault move and your on the second bullet of the list all these rules will apply. It's not that complex and it does not matter what order you put them in. I believe assailting means charging into combat and that seems to me the simplest and most seamless way to look at it. If you want to think of it in a more complex way you'll either come out with the same result anyways, add rules that are not stated or cause the RAW to be disfunctional.


BTW you just said "In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact". That would cause the rule you keep quoting to me read 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not moving into base contact with'