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It says you must move the unit into CC with the target unit. It does not say all it's models and therefore does not add that restriction as only one model is required to fill this roll.

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assaut them by simply moving them into base contact. There is never a time when it says you can choose or declare additional units to assalt. It says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" Nothing stating a choice. They can assault other units in range and therefore make base contact.

All of this is aside from the meaning of the word possible. As in:
"• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."
and
"Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"

Possible: "a : being within the limits of ability, capacity, or realization " *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Since you keep saying it's a choice and optional lets make this clear. Any choice or option you have is within the limits of your ability and therefore qualify as possible. To reword without changing the meaning one could say.
'If there is a choice, option or abillity that would allow you in any way to move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model then you must do so'(much easier to just say 'If possible...')

So if, as you say, you get to choose to assault another unit and if that units model is the only one in reach you must choose to do so as per the the rules stated above compelling your actions and choices. The actions and choices you can do or make all qualify as possibilities

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assault them by simply moving them into base contact.

What?

You may not move into contact with models from a unit you are not assaulting. What exactly determines which units you are assaulting, by your reading?

The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

Elios Harg wrote:The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

That is not true either. You are never forced to come into base contact with a unit other than the one you have launched an assault against.

Abandon wrote:"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assaut them by simply moving them into base contact. There is never a time when it says you can choose or declare additional units to assault.

Boldface, Underlined, and Italicized the important word.

Can does not equal must.

You have the option to assault other units, you do not have to, thus the option to do so.

"Then remaining models CAN assault models belonging to other enemy units." (brb 34)

Are you seriously saying that if you can choose something it should not be considered possible?
If you said yes, please explain how it is possible for you to do something that is impossible.
If no then some self Q and A might help to explain what I this mean:

Q)Is it possible for your unit to assault units other than your target?
A)Yes.

Q)Is it then possible to make base contact with their models?
A)Yes.

Q)Is it withing the limits of possibility to move into base contact with "any enemy model within reach"?
A)Yes

Q)If all these things are possible when it tells you "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach" if I cannot reach such a model in the target unit, do you really have a choice to not reach base contact with an enemy model within reach of a unit I'm not assaulting?
A)No, the rule compels you to make base contact with any unengaged enemy model, taking any necessary steps to do so.

Q)The Assaulting Multiple Units section makes it sound optional, can't I choose not to?
A)No, just like movement which is normally optional the assault rules dictate what choices you will make. Only within the parameters of it's mandates are you free to choose anything.

One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

Abandon wrote:One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

The rules forbid you from moving into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your read, you are automatically assaulting any unit you can move into contact with, once you've declared a charge. Are you not seeing the contradiction here? By your read this prohibition is meaningless, as you are automatically moving into contact and assaulting.

Q) Are units forbidden from moving into base contact with models from units they are not assaulting?
A)Yes

That is why it is optional and not mandatory.

How is this not clear?

DeathReaper wrote:

Elios Harg wrote:The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

That is not true either. You are never forced to come into base contact with a unit other than the one you have launched an assault against.

If you were physically unable to maintain unit coherency while assault your target unit without placing a model into base to base contact with another enemy unit, you would, by necessity, be required to multiple charge the other unit in order to maintain unit coherency. Otherwise, you are making an illegal move (by breaking coherency) and thus, cheating.

Elios Harg wrote:If you were physically unable to maintain unit coherency while assault your target unit without placing a model into base to base contact with another enemy unit, you would, by necessity, be required to multiple charge the other unit in order to maintain unit coherency. Otherwise, you are making an illegal move (by breaking coherency) and thus, cheating.

It is not possible for the situation you are describing to actually happen.

It actually can happen, but only under extreme circumstances, you would need to be charging a unit by going around another enemy unit through dangerous terrain and lose one of the middle models in your charging unit to dangerous terrain forcing you to move the next model in the line to move closer to the unit you are avoiding in order to maintain coherency.

Not even then, the model in the enemy unit would either be too far, and you can get into 2" coherency without contact, or too close to the assaulting unit and that would put them out of coherency.

Anything else requires ultra-precise measurement with a laser measurement device to coincidentally have the enemy model precisely where it needed to be so your model is simultaneously in base contact AND within 2 inch coherency at the precise distance it needed to be to fulfill both of those conditions. Both of which will never happen.

it is not possible to be that precise when measuring, so it will never happen.

Mannahnin wrote:

Abandon wrote:One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

The rules forbid you from moving into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your read, you are automatically assaulting any unit you can move into contact with, once you've declared a charge. Are you not seeing the contradiction here? By your read this prohibition is meaningless, as you are automatically moving into contact and assaulting.

If the statement "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" meant you would cannot make base contact with a unit you did not declare against then that would create a contradiction as your models would never be allowed to assault other units. Fortunatly that is not what it means. All it means is that if you do move into base contact with them, then you are assaulting them as is explained later in the next section.

It may sound like an unnecessary statement but they need to say it to make it clear that base contact means close combat. If this were not stated you could make base contact with other units during your the assault and decline to assault them.

Abandon wrote:If the statement "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" meant you would cannot make base contact with a unit you did not declare against then that would create a contradiction as your models would never be allowed to assault other units. Fortunatly that is not what it means. All it means is that if you do move into base contact with them, then you are assaulting them as is explained later in the next section.

You have that pretty much exactly backwards.

Abandon, that makes no sense whatsoever, and I suspect that you know it.

Ok here it is spelled out then.

The Assaulting Mulitple units section says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

Thats what you might call a contradiction.

Contradictions happen all the time in the rules.

They give a rule, then they give specific exceptions to that rule.

E.G units can move in any direction.

Exception: Units with the Rage USR MUST move towards the closest visible enemy unit.

There is a contradiction, but we use the more specific rule in this case and rage works by contradiction the general rules.

Assaulting multiple enemy units is also an exception, but it is an optional exception that you do not have to exercise.

Abandon wrote:...but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

That's not what they said at all.

The rules don't require you to declare assaults against multiple units. You only decalre the initial assault target. You then move your initial charger. Subsequent models can assault multiple units, because the multiple assault rules allow it... but models may not move into contact with enemy models from units that they are not assaulting... a prohibition that would be meaningless if you were forced to charge them anyway.

A unit with rage is compelled to move in a direction the maximum distance allowed. Units without this special rule move as normal. Thats called an exception, not a contradiction. I have not yet found any direct contradictions in the main book and if you find many of them I'd say you sould reconsider how you are evaluating the writen text.

As for this part "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" you are looking at the term assaulting in a way that would cause the rules to become broken. 'Assaulting' in this book is a gerenal term meaning attacking in close combat. It could be used to discribe a assault move(charge!) but still applies three turns into the melee as the units are still assaulting each other. So it could have just as easily been stated 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not attacking in close combat' and it would mean the same thing.

Abandon wrote:As for this part "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" you are looking at the term assaulting in a way that would cause the rules to become broken. 'Assaulting' in this book is a gerenal term meaning attacking in close combat. It could be used to discribe a assault move(charge!) but still applies three turns into the melee as the units are still assaulting each other. So it could have just as easily been stated 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not attacking in close combat' and it would mean the same thing.

None of which changes the fact that it would be a completely meaningless prohibition under your interpretation of the rules.

An exception and a contradiction are essentially the same.

Rage USR contradicts the movement rule that say they can move in ANY direction, by saying they can not move in ANY direction.

See the contradiction?

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:...but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

That's not what they said at all.

The rules don't require you to declare assaults against multiple units. You only decalre the initial assault target. You then move your initial charger. Subsequent models can assault multiple units, because the multiple assault rules allow it... but models may not move into contact with enemy models from units that they are not assaulting... a prohibition that would be meaningless if you were forced to charge them anyway.

So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

I never stated you'd always be forced to assault additional units. My only claim has been that situationally (depending on positioning and size of units) it can happen that way if you follow the rule stating:

"• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

You can assault other units, and are not allowed to move into base contact with other units unless you are assaulting them.

By your reading, if you have a two-model unit, assaulting two one-model units which are within ~3" of one another, and both in reach of your two models, you are forced to assault both, if you assault at all.

This is not correct. The prohibition on moving into contact with units you are not assaulting helps to make clear that some factor delineates between units you are assaulting and units you are not assaulting, other than the capability to move into contact with them.

DeathReaper wrote:An exception and a contradiction are essentially the same.

Rage USR contradicts the movement rule that say they can move in ANY direction, by saying they can not move in ANY direction.

See the contradiction?

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

They are not the same. An exception asserts itself as exempt from the normal rule while a contradiction would directly oppose it. Contradictions break rule systems. Exceptions do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:You can assault other units, and are not allowed to move into base contact with other units unless you are assaulting them.

By your reading, if you have a two-model unit, assaulting two one-model units which are within ~3" of one another, and both in reach of your two models, you are forced to assault both, if you assault at all.

This is not correct. The prohibition on moving into contact with units you are not assaulting helps to make clear that some factor delineates between units you are assaulting and units you are not assaulting, other than the capability to move into contact with them.

It says all that? It seems to say that if you make base contact with them then you must engage them in close combat(that's what assaulting means).

As fo the example, assuming you could maintain coherency while doing so, by the RAW you would be forced to assault both units in that case. You seem to keep thinking there is some kind of declare secondary assault step or declare a multi assault step but there is not. There is only the rules for moving your models and following them will determine what units you assault.

Oh and there is a defining factor for what units you are assaulting. It's called base contact. Every unit you have in base contact with and enemy unit in a state of assault without regard for assault movement. The state of assaulting is, as I said, the state of attacking in close combat.

Youm know I think it's the word assault that's confusing you. You should read the section again and unless its a specific term like Declare Assault or Assault Move you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammer) and the section may make more sense to you.

Abandon wrote:So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense. That should have been your first clue that it probably wasn't what I was saying.

You can assault multiple units. You don't have to. You can only move into base contact with models from units you are assaulting... meaning if you are not choosing to assault a given unit (as you are given the choice by the multiple assault rules) then you can not move into base contact with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abandon wrote:...you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammer) and the section may make more sense to you.

You're trying to create a distinction that doesnt exist in the rules.

The section that deals with moving models into assault is dealing with moving models into assault. So the part that says that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting means, oddly enough, that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting.

Whether you choose to interpret that reference to 'assaulting' to mean 'moving into assault' or 'fighting in close combat' ultimately makes little difference though, since models that move into assault will fight in close combat... the end result is exactly the same. You can't move into contact with a model from a unit that you have not chosen to assault... a choice that doesn't exist under your interpretation of the rules, rendering the rule meaningless.

Abandon wrote:They are not the same. An exception asserts itself as exempt from the normal rule while a contradiction would directly oppose it. Contradictions break rule systems. Exceptions do not.

and how is:

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

not a contradiction exactly?

They are contradictory, any way you look at it,

DeathReaper wrote:Not even then, the model in the enemy unit would either be too far, and you can get into 2" coherency without contact, or too close to the assaulting unit and that would put them out of coherency.

Anything else requires ultra-precise measurement with a laser measurement device to coincidentally have the enemy model precisely where it needed to be so your model is simultaneously in base contact AND within 2 inch coherency at the precise distance it needed to be to fulfill both of those conditions. Both of which will never happen.

it is not possible to be that precise when measuring, so it will never happen.

Except that it does not require that precise of measuring... all that has to happen is for your model to be forced to move within 1" of an enemy model in order to maintain coherency. Bear in mind that "base to base" is 3" in diameter for a normal base model and 4" in diameter for a terminator base model. If you cannot maintain squad coherency with a model without moving within that 1" buffer zone of base to base contact, you are forced to assault the other unit in order to maintain coherency.

Elios Harg wrote: If you cannot maintain squad coherency with a model without moving within that 1" buffer zone of base to base contact, you are forced to assault the other unit in order to maintain coherency.

The 1" rule doesn't apply when you're making assault moves. (Page 34, 'Moving Assaulting Models' first paragraph) It is replaced by the rule preventing you from moving into base contact with models from a unit you are not assaulting.

Aha. I missed that. In that case, I concede that it can only occur in an impossible situation.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense. That should have been your first clue that it probably wasn't what I was saying.

You can assault multiple units. You don't have to. You can only move into base contact with models from units you are assaulting... meaning if you are not choosing to assault a given unit (as you are given the choice by the multiple assault rules) then you can not move into base contact with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abandon wrote:...you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammar) and the section may make more sense to you.

You're trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist in the rules.

The section that deals with moving models into assault is dealing with moving models into assault. So the part that says that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting means, oddly enough, that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting.

Whether you choose to interpret that reference to 'assaulting' to mean 'moving into assault' or 'fighting in close combat' ultimately makes little difference though, since models that move into assault will fight in close combat... the end result is exactly the same. You can't move into contact with a model from a unit that you have not chosen to assault... a choice that doesn't exist under your interpretation of the rules, rendering the rule meaningless.

There is no distinction you are correct. I just felt Mannahini was getting hung up on the word thinking it meant something he had to declare or decide on instead of just CC so I was attempting to broaden his view of it.

The rule is not without meaning at all. They have to state somewhere here that you can't make base contact with a unit and not fight them in CC and I notice this is the only place it states it.

Even if you did have a choice lets not forget the words possible and must here:

"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Possible- In this case would mean anything within the limits of you or your units abilities in accordance with game rules.
Must- (I'm sure you know what it means) The use of this word in this sentence requires you to make any choice, take any option and/or use any abilities that would get you into base contact with any unengaged enemy model.
Any Enemy Model- Since the rules have given permission for your models to assault(get into CC with) any units models they are all fair game. If there are any in range of your assault move your only choice will be which one to move to.

Even if you had a choice not to assault another unit, that would mean you had two or more possibilities(a choice) and as per the MUST in the rule you would be forced to make the choice that gets you into CC with any unengaged enemy model. Moving as normal you could choose not to move your model at all or move it any direction but in assault most choices are made for you with rules like the above. If you had a choice that would give you and option to have an ability that would allow you that base contact then it is by definition possible to do so(see above rule).

If somehow doing the Hokey Pokey would allow you to engage an unengaged enemy model when you would not be able to otherwise do so, then this rule would dictate that do it and turn yourself around... that's what it's all about!

Abandon wrote:"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model

With the restriction that we can not get into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting.

Declare your assault against a unit, and follow the assault rules.

Then you MAY contact other units after the first guy has moved.

its simple.