Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've not seen this addressed anywhere and apologize if it has been but if I'm reading the assault rules correctly it can at times be REQUIRED that you do a multi assault not just an option.

For example at the begining of your assault phase if you had a large unit of hormagaunts(lets say 25) that are within 3-4 inches of both a unit of terminators and a unit of tac marines who are also only 2 inches from each other then you would have to assault both if your going to assault one of them. The second bullet in the assault rules states:

-If possible, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.

Note the rule does not state what unit the model belongs to( therefore does not care). So basicly it says if you can engage an unengaged enemy model in base contact then you MUST do so. Add to that the assaulting multiple enemies rules that say you CAN assault multiple units and you get the idea that it's not always just an option becuase you MUST engage as many enemy modles as possible.

So in the example above, if you want to assault the tac squad, then you'll have to come up with an elaborate self blocking maneuver or generaly be forced to assault the terminators as well...

This is how I read it in the RAW but some of my friends think otherwise somehow so I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this.

Pretty sure you can assault as many units as you like as long as you remain in coherency. The first guy has to move to the target unit though.

That is a rather interesting question. If the requirment to move into contact with an unengaged model if possible, and does not specify that the model must be in the unit already engaged, then it would seem possible to 'lure' a unit into multiple combat. While moving into one would normally seem to be up to the assauting player, if your scenario worked out, you could really get into a bind if not careful.

That isn't the question. The question is "is multiple assaulting compulsory if you are within 2" assault distance of any enemy who is not in base-to-base contact with someone even if they are not in the target unit?"

I don't have my rulebook in my face so I can't answer that right away.

The Assault Phase Summary (page 33), The Declare Assaults (page 33) and the first section of Moving Assaulting Units (page 34)all talk about "declaring target" and "target unit", as does the following section.

Only in the Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units (page 34) are we given the option to assault "other enemy units".

I feel the context is perfectly clear.

As Steelmage wrote. The assault moves sequence applies to the singular unit you declared a charge against, and no other units, until and unless you exercise your OPTION to engage other nearby enemy units, presuming that you are able to do so while obeying all the normal assault move restrictions.

It only states that you must assault the unit you declared the assault against. It also states you must assault that unit with the first model you move. Since it is so specific on the first move and then says just "enemy model" for the rest it cannot be claimed this section is only refering to the one unit.

As far as the assaulting multiple enemies rules it does not state it's a option you can turn on and off, it just says you can do it. In fact some specific words out of it are "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting". Note they say it's possible. To re-quote the main assault rule "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Not to mention this part "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"

I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

So, no, multi-assaults are not mandatory even if they are possible.

That last part about it being possible is what makes it manditory at times... Please read the second bullet in the move assaulting units section.


As for the last line of that paragraph, since we all know you can assault multiple units all that really says is if you get into base contact with an enemy unit then you are assaulting it.

As has been pointed out, it is not mandatory to assault multiple units. Your whole argument is based on an assumption that since a certain passage doesn't specifically state a single unit it must mean multiple units when the rules don't say that.

I Agree with Ghaz. The BGB is very consistent about stating exactly what you must do. Assaulting multiple units when able is not a mandatory action.

Ghaz wrote:As has been pointed out, it is not mandatory to assault multiple units. Your whole argument is based on an assumption that since a certain passage doesn't specifically state a single unit it must mean multiple units when the rules don't say that.

It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

@Lordhat: You are correct, they are very consistant and they do state exactly what you must do. The first set of rules for moving the assaulting models applies only to the first model moved and is intentionally very specific. The next set of rules applies to moving the rest of the models in the assaulting unit and as with the rest of the book, it must be assumed it is worded specifically the way it is ment to be. If they had ment an 'enemy model in the unit you are assaulting' they would have stated that instead of just 'enemy model'.

You cannot assume they mean something they did not state. Once you do that your just making up rules... Which is fine if it's your house...

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

You are wrong. There a is rule A and a rule B, but you are applying rule B only, citing that it does not restate rule A. This is a Rule SET in which the different parts compliment each other, not independent axioms.

You move your assaulting unit according to the assault rules. If when you are done moving your unit, you have models in base to base contact with more than one unit, you continue combat including those additional units. It doesn't matter which unit you declared your assault against.

Multiple assaults is determined by you being in base to base with models from more than one unit. You can end up with one huge assault with multiple units on both sides and it is all resolved as one combat.

I always thought if possible the unit assaulting must attempt to get all of its models within assaulting distance of the enemy unit. Only after that has been met can you also assault another unit, with tyranids this seems highly likely as you have a high model count.

I had a game the other night where someone where my buddy wanted to multi-assault my lesser demons, and my rhino but he didn't attempt to move 6inches in his assault to get around my lesser demons.

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption.

Yes, it is an assumption and totally ignores the context of the rules up to that point which is one unit versus one unit. If you don't ignore the context as you're doing its perfectly clear that they're talking about all of the models within the single unit being assaulted and not any model within range regardless of what unit they're in.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

You are wrong. There a is rule A and a rule B, but you are applying rule B only, citing that it does not restate rule A. This is a Rule SET in which the different parts compliment each other, not independent axioms.

Yes. all the rules must be observed as a set. That's my point. So to follow them all at once keep in mind you can assault multiple units while you're making your assault move. Just because the rule's under a different heading does not meant it can be ignored. It is a permissive rule and applies during the assault move stating it's possible to assault as many units as you are able to, keeping in coherency etc. So add rule C to rules A and B.

So when you move any assaulting model after the first and you cannot reach base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model in the unit you declared against but there is there is a enemy model in another unit that you CAN reach then It is unarguably POSSIBLE to make base contact with it and per the moving assaulting models rules you MUST then do so.

By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

Abandon wrote:So when you move any assaulting model after the first and you cannot reach base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model in the unit you declared against but there is there is a enemy model in another unit that you CAN reach then It is unarguably POSSIBLE to make base contact with it and per the moving assaulting models rules you MUST then do so.

I see where you are reading this. The rule for moving into base to base contact with as many enemy models is in the Moving Assaulting Models section for a single assault, so you MUST get as many of your models as possible into base contact with the single unit you have declared an assault against. You are not allowed to assault other units in this section. The permission to assault other units is in (surprisingly) the Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units section. Here it says that if you can, you MAY, NOT MUST. If you do so, then you have to follow the rules for single assaults against both units. Does this make sense?

solkan wrote:By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

It is not possible as you are only allowed 6" to assault.

And yet again, you've completely ignored the context of the rules. The entire first column of text on page 34 is in the context of one unit assaulting one unit. Its even more clear that's the context when you go on and read the rules that actually allow you to assault multiple units. Right now all you are doing is cherry picking the rules passages you want to support your claims and ignoring the ones that clearly prove that you're wrong.

Ghaz has it right, as usual.

I'm not the one cherry picking here. Your whole argument is based on a line that states "...may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". You seem to have taken that to mean they cannot make base contact with other units but that is incorrect. To take it that way would mean that no assaults on multiple units are possible since you would never be able to move to base contact with them. That line just to makes it clear that you cannot make base contact without assaulting the unit and as we know, you CAN assault other units and therefore it is POSSIBLE to make base contact with their models. The wording of the assault move intentionally allows for the assaulting multiple units rule which you seem to disregard at will. Stop thinking of it as something you can opt out of. It does not say you can if you feel like it. It just says it's possible. This is one set of rules not two operating independently.

Context does not matter in this case. There is no need to guess by context what is plainly stated.

Here's a simple breakdown

Rule set A: A mandatory rule set telling you very specifically how to move the first model in your assaulting unit.
Rule set B: A mandatory rule set stating how you must move the rest of your assaulting unit.
Rule C: A permissive rule that applies itself to rule set B allowing you to assault multiple units.

Rule set A is unquestioned so lets have a closer look at the bullet rules of set B with rule C in mind.

"• The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.
• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If there are no such models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base contact with an enemy.
• If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency."

Rule C has little to no bearing on the first, fourth and fifth rules here so lets focus on the second and third.

The second rule here states you must move into base contact with an enemy model not already in base contact with one of your own if it is POSSIBLE to do so. Rule C makes it POSSIBLE to make base contact with any enemy model regardless of unit. So if there is ANY enemy model you can reach you MUST do so even if the model belongs to a unit you did not declare against.

The third rule is the same as the second except it's regarding enemy models already in base contact. Rule C applies to it the same way.

I don't know how to make it more clear than that other than to define the word possible but I'm sure you already know what it means.

@Nemesor Dave: TY for being able to see the logic here. I know it's no great leap but so many seem unable or unwilling to see it I feel I must give praise to those who do.

decoste007xt wrote:I always thought if possible the unit assaulting must attempt to get all of its models within assaulting distance of the enemy unit. Only after that has been met can you also assault another unit, with tyranids this seems highly likely as you have a high model count.

There is no requirement to engage as many models as possible on the original target before adding another unit to the charge... Any model after the first can assault a separate unit, so long as it can do so by following the rules for moving assaulting models.

So you move the first model onto the target unit. The second model can move onto that same unit or a different unit, so long as it winds up in base contact with an enemy if possible, and within 2" of the first model moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abandon wrote:@Nemesor Dave: TY for being able to see the logic here. I know it's no great leap but so many seem unable or unwilling to see it I feel I must give praise to those who do.

Disagreeing with it doesn't mean that people are unable or unwilling to see it... It just means that they don't agree with it.

As has been pointed out, the rules for moving assaulting models are dealing with single units on both sides. The multiple assault rules are completely separate to that, and make it clear that engaging multiple units is a voluntary action. Within that context (and no, you can't just ignore the context, since context is what makes the whole messy English language function) there is no requirement to engage multiple units unless you want to.

Abandon wrote:Context does not matter in this case.

Yes it does.

The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

As far as the assaulting multiple units being 'clearly optional' in it's description as you say it indeed does sound that way when you read it. By itself is a permissive rule that allows you to do something and gives you options. Unfortunately there are a couple other rules the tell you exactly what 'options' you must take. So it may happen (and often does in assaults) that because you CAN do a thing, then you MUST do that thing. In this case you CAN get into base contact any enemy model in range, staying in coherency, etc.

I generally I don't like to argue context because it is often difficult to define and often in the eye of the beholder but if you really want to I'll give it a shot.

The section is titled "The Assault Phase" and explains the rules in order of turn sequence.

"Declare Assaults"
This explains the process of declaring assaults. Of course they state you must declare one unit as your target. It is compulsory for them to say that as it is the first step in assaulting and therefore cannot be assumed a a context to flavor everything to come. It is just what happens at this stage of the game. It does not mention single or multiple assaults so with no meaningful context to glean here I'll move on.

"Move Assaulting Units"
Before it's first heading states that you must move into close combat with the enemy units you have declare against and that you must move a whole unit before moving on to the next. Again this is something they need to mention due to it's importance and does not state these rules are for assaulting only one unit in any way.

Sub-heading "Moving Assaulting Models"
The first paragraph talks about how movement in assault works mostly but in the end does state that you "...may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". This should not be taken to mean you can't make base contact with other units since that is not precisely what is said. What is said is that you cannot be in base contact with them without assaulting them. If they had intended for this section to be only for assaulting a single unit they would have said something like 'enemy models you did not declare assault against'. instead they just made it clear that you are assaulting them if you are in base contact.

The next paragraph starts with "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!" There it's pretty clear. If you could have engaged an enemy model and you did not, then you have broken this rule. Note there is no mention of unit. The rest of the paragraph explains how you must move your first model in the assaulting unit. Note it's very specific terminology "the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted". As there is only one unit currently being assaulted at this stage of course the singular is used. This is the only place in the whole section they state you must make contact with a model in the unit you assaulted. As this is so specific and very clear that it is only the first model that does this it cannot be considered a context for the rest of the moves either.

So now we're at the part about moving the rest of the models which we've discussed at length and I will not repeat here but.. where is this single unit assault context you keep talking about? It says you have to take all the mandatory(I just love that word) steps to assault but never says your only assaulting one unit anywhere.

Side note: I do apologize for starting this with a 'what do you guys think' question here and procceding to have a strong opinion about it. That's kind of rude and was not my intent. It's just the more I looked into it the more I was convinced I was correct.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

solkan wrote:By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

It is not possible as you are only allowed 6" to assault.

So you ARE adding unwritten qualifiers [to that sentence] from other parts of the book. Right?

Abandon wrote:The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

The point being made is that the initial rules for moving assaulting models are, in fact, for one unit on one unit assaults. The multiple assault rules then add in additional rules that allow you to engage multiple units.

But in the same way as the regular shooting rules work with a model firing a weapon that fires a single shot, the assault rules cover the most common, basic scenario and expand later to cover other situations.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

The point being made is that the initial rules for moving assaulting models are, in fact, for one unit on one unit assaults. The multiple assault rules then add in additional rules that allow you to engage multiple units.

But in the same way as the regular shooting rules work with a model firing a weapon that fires a single shot, the assault rules cover the most common, basic scenario and expand later to cover other situations.

Why do poeple keep saying it's only for assaulting one unit. It does not state that anywhere.

Unlike the shooting phase where they specify that "A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets".

As for things like rapid fire, it is optional only because there is no rule stating you must fire as many shots as possible. If there were, then you'd have to rapid fire every time you had opportunity to do so. There is however such a rule in the assault section so my point stands.

In fact in the book overall, they generally are very specific about there wording and terms. In some cases you do have to use context to determine what is ment but this is always very direct and clear. In the Universal Special Rules they state thing like 'the model' and 'the unit' but it is clear they are refering to units and models with the ability listed right above the text in bold print as a subheading. That is what you might call setting a clear context and they do it again and again. Following suit with the rest of the book if they had intened the "Moving Assaulting Models" section to be only used for single unit assault they would have made it equally clear. Instead they chose to label it as they did becuase it is for moving ALL assaulting models now moatter the number of units they may assault.

To reiterate the assault steps used for every assault:
1. Declare assault <-at this tage you are assaulting only one unit
2. Move the first assaulting model <-here you are still only assaulting one unit
3. Move the rest of the assaulting units <- here is where the number of units you are assaulting will be decided and is determind by the moving assaulting models rules, not the player(unless he's trixy)

The first and second steps specify a unit to declare against and to engage with the first model. The rest can engage any enemy model they are able to reach and must do so if possible.

Abandon wrote:[Why do poeple keep saying it's only for assaulting one unit. It does not state that anywhere.

Because it does say that, in the rules for moving your assaulting models.

You declare an enemy unit as a target. You move your models into contact with that unit. They don't address assaulting multiple units until you reach a separate section of the rules later on. Before that point, the rules are dealing solely with single unit assaults.

As for rapid fire, it is optional only because there is no rule stating you must fire as many shots as possible. If there were, then you'd have to rapid fire every time you had opportunity to do so.

I have no idea what that had to do with the current discussion, but it's incorrect. Rapid Fire weapons fire one shot at up to maximum range, or two shots at up to 12 ". The only choice you have is to fire or not to fire. The number of shots is set by the range to the target and whether or not the firer moved.

Actually, Rapid Fire isn't optional.