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Vasarto wrote:You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

Are you implying that Thunderwolf Cavalry is in some way not already arguably the best counter-charge unit in 40k?

azazel the cat wrote:

Vasarto wrote:You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

Are you implying that Thunderwolf Cavalry is in some way not already arguably the best counter-charge unit in 40k?

No, he's saying that now people have access to official TWC models, they're going to become more commonplace in lists.

Just Dave wrote:
Adopting the perspective of Russ, I can fully understand his actions. The Emperor didn't lend him the Sisters of Silence or Custodes to help put on the handcuffs in all likelihood.

one never knows, though it certainly made sense either way just in case the TSons ended up resisting to send forces that would assist in fighting a psychically capable Space Marine Legion, though the original orders (from multiple sources) do state that Magnus was always intended to be brought back intact and that the TSons legion wasn't intended to be destroyed when Russ was initially dispatched, and that it didn't take much to convince Russ otherwise, despite the vital need for Magnus on Terra.

pretre wrote:In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

I'm not saying they weren't nice, but next to ranger disruption tables, starcannon skimmerspam, 3.5 Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angel rhino charges, etc, it wasn't really in the same league.

The whole situation is still everyone's fault. Emperor knew who he was sending. Horus changed the order. Valdor and Russ didn't question it. Magnus was a tool and sulked while they dropped in.

Yeah, that last part about Magnus just sulking and taking it made him look like a total weenie sadly, it didn't exactly present him in the greatest of lights.

i hate them simply because theyre baby blue wolf marines riding giant wolves.

Sadly nothing ever typed on the internets is going to change one persons mind on why they should or should not hate something.

I love the SW because to me, they still are space vikings. They love to get stuck in, they care about the small guy, and they have the guts to go against the administration when called for.

Have I read the SW codex? Yup, but I have a very selective memory. I only remember the fluff bits that I find amusing or fit my preconceived notions about the army. I immediately dump anything contradicting to what I want my wolves to be because they are my army and I want to have fun pushing them across the table making pew pew noises.

Have I read any of the novels? Nope, because I'm just not a reader and I know that many people can read the same body of work and come away with several different options of what actually happened / motivations / etc. I'm sure that through my rose colored glasses I'll see something heroic where others who see through hate filled lenses something hypocritical.

So all those who hate the SW enjoy your hate. I'll be the first to admit that its fun to rant about something. Nothing get the blood pumping quite like negative energy. And for those of us who love the SW, enjoy your love and don't let others ruin it for you. Your reasons for liking them are just as valid as others for hating on them. In the end, its a fictional universe, full of fictional people, represented physically by poorly play tested rules designed by an inconsistent design team.

Vaktathi wrote:

pretre wrote:In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

I'm not saying they weren't nice, but next to ranger disruption tables, starcannon skimmerspam, 3.5 Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angel rhino charges, etc, it wasn't really in the same league.

I don't remember the ranger disruption tables, but I definitely remember the rest. Ahh, good times...

Jayden63 wrote:Sadly nothing ever typed on the internets is going to change one persons mind on why they should or should not hate something.

I love the SW because to me, they still are space vikings. They love to get stuck in, they care about the small guy, and they have the guts to go against the administration when called for.

Have I read the SW codex? Yup, but I have a very selective memory. I only remember the fluff bits that I find amusing or fit my preconceived notions about the army. I immediately dump anything contradicting to what I want my wolves to be because they are my army and I want to have fun pushing them across the table making pew pew noises.

Have I read any of the novels? Nope, because I'm just not a reader and I know that many people can read the same body of work and come away with several different options of what actually happened / motivations / etc. I'm sure that through my rose colored glasses I'll see something heroic where others who see through hate filled lenses something hypocritical.

So all those who hate the SW enjoy your hate. I'll be the first to admit that its fun to rant about something. Nothing get the blood pumping quite like negative energy. And for those of us who love the SW, enjoy your love and don't let others ruin it for you. Your reasons for liking them are just as valid as others for hating on them. In the end, its a fictional universe, full of fictional people, represented physically by poorly play tested rules designed by an inconsistent design team.

You had me at space vikings.

Some huge holes in many of the haters reasons for hating being posted up here.

To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

The truth of the matter is that before Magnus ever made his deal that damned his Legion, the Thousand Sons were already suspect in their use of the warp due to the the nature of their powers and suffering of the flesh change. Combined with the canon of Warhammer 40k regarding the Old Night and how mankind fell prior to the arrival of the Emperor it is hardly surprising that there be people (Primarchs) wary of what Magnus was trying to accomplish not only with his Librarian Experiment but also with his vision for humanity (shown with the Legion specifically picking latent psykers in remembrancers and cultivating their power).

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra. We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit. Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction. They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus. In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian. The edict passed at Nikea specifically and intentionally targeted that which had been "tainted" by the teachings of Magnus. It specifically targetted the librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium. Again all things specifically "tainted" by Magnus' teachings. At no time whatsoever were the SW or their rune priests ever tainted by the teachings of Magnus. In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

The fact is that what happened on Prospero and to the Thousand Sons was exactly what was forewarned by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea. There was no exception given in that decree for Magnus being taken back to Terra. Whether you want to try and deflect Russ' actions with supposed orders from Horus, you also have sources citing Russ being given his orders directly from the Emperor to sanction the Thousand Sons.

Basically I liked the Space Wolves with the Ragnar series. They were pretty interesting and cool, even if they were against my fav legion of the Thousand Sons. They were really heroic to me in those stories. It's only the HH series on them that makes me hate them.

-Rune Priests are just like librarians, only with a different name. If not then I'd love some real facts on how it is really different than being a librarian.

-The whole "We pretend to be idiot, brutal, buffoons to make people underestimate us" crap really gets on my nerves. If they're smart, let them be smart, if not then don't pretend like they're anything else. Russ probably was a really smart guy who dumbed it down for his legion, but the other wolves.. ya.. they're beer drinkin, mutated, mohawk, idiots who think they can piss rainbows, and nothings gonna change that. (had a picture I was gonna add but it doesn't work)

-Hypocrite is a hypocrite no matter how you dress it up.

-The fact that they would probably of gone after the Sons for anything, even without the Emperors orders, just shows their bias against them.

Alot of other posters already hit a lot of points I agreed with, so that's all I've got for now.

I recently found a liking in the Space Wolves, even some time after reading the William King fiction, which I love.

Space Wolves are the Hounds of Chaos. An entire company (which back during the Heresy could have been far more it is now) was specifically sent right into the Eye of terror by Russ with the literal mandate of "While we keep things safe, you run down anyone that betrayed us and kill all those that follow them".

Even their feud against the Dark Angels is partially fueled by that, where the DA sit outside the Eye and try to ambush the Fallen when they can and try to keep their huge secret from everyone, while the Wolves just bum-rush anything evil.

I like to think that beyond their viking theme (and the latest Wolf-everything craziness), they are what Space Marines could be without the Codex Astartes- well rounded and bad to piss off, because unlike the other stoic warrior monk SM chapters, they thoroughly enjoy giving everything that looks at them funny a black eye, without going bat-crazy like the Blood Angels or at the other end getting pious and religious like the Black Templars.

I don;t like the new fiction where they are cunningly hiding their intelligence from outsiders. They always had that. It's just that they also love to see bad things and go "Well boys, lets go kill all of it", while not caring if others see them as barbarians.

Brother Ramses wrote:
To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

Yup, other Primarch's also stood against Magnus. They didn't come off however in the same manner as the Space Wolves when doing it though (maybe Mortarion...)

The truth of the matter is that before Magnus ever made his deal that damned his Legion, the Thousand Sons were already suspect in their use of the warp due to the the nature of their powers and suffering of the flesh change. Combined with the canon of Warhammer 40k regarding the Old Night and how mankind fell prior to the arrival of the Emperor it is hardly surprising that there be people (Primarchs) wary of what Magnus was trying to accomplish not only with his Librarian Experiment but also with his vision for humanity (shown with the Legion specifically picking latent psykers in remembrancers and cultivating their power).

Nobody is debating that Magnus's actions made him suspect or the reasons why psykers are distrusted here.

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra.

I don't have the Index Astartes articles in front of me, however keep in mind that each piece is a biased re-creation from that factions perspective. Look at the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists for example in each's telling of the Iron Cage incident. The IF's describe the result as being a brutally fought but ultimately successful escape and infliction of some harm on the Iron Warriors in foiling their plans, the Iron Warriors describe it as a perfectly executed culling of much of the Imperial Fists that left them crippled for decades for which Perturabo ascended to Daemonhood.

We do however have multiple sources saying that the SW's weren't initially intended to annihilate the Thousand Sons, and the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book describes in detail that Magnus was intended to be brought back to power the Golden Throne in the place of the Emperor (obviously before he had sustained injuries that necessitated the Golden Throne's medical capabilities)

We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit.

We don't have it word for word, but the general gist of it was that Psyker employment in general aside from Astropaths and Navigators by the Space Marines was proscribed.

Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction.

Lets think about this for a moment.

Even if you're just going to arrest him, detaining a monstrously powerful genetically engineered super-psyker demi-god with a planet full of super soldiers commanded by super soldier psykers loyal to him with millions of "mundane" troops and starships at their disposal, it's probably wise to bring some heavy hitting specialist backup, just in case.

They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus.

That assumes that the non-SW groups were privy to everything going on, telling them all before they get to Prospero that they're about to attack a Space Marine Legion, something unthinkable up to that point, may not have been the best of things to spread around, and remember, at this stage Horus is still the Emperor's favored son.

In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

What would the point have been by then? Especially as by the time it would he would have been censured, the galaxy was already embroiled in full scale war, so even if it had been intended, it likely would have been set aside.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian.

In name only. They mistakenly (or willfuly ignorant) think their powers come from Fenris rather than the warp, and use powers based on the feral traditions of the natives of Fenris, instead of those prescribed by the Codex. Aside from the specifics of the powers and where they think their powers come from, they fulfill the same role in much the same manner.

See earlier comments regarding this. This is why the SW's are seen as hypocritical.

"Oh man, we have this dude who fulfills the same role in much the same way as your not-ok dude, but because he believes his power comes from elsewhere so he's totally ok"

In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

We have no fluff on the Nikea edict's effect on anyone but the Thousand Sons really. Despite other Legions having Librarian departments and even chapters now having Librarians, only the TSons seem to have been affected in any way by it. Basically it seems to have been forgotten as soon as the TSons were driven into the arms of Horus and then everyone was like "well, lets bring back Librarians" right after that.

Brother Ramses wrote:Some huge holes in many of the haters reasons for hating being posted up here.

To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

Yes, they opposed using the Warp. They did not then claim that their own psychic powers didn't come from the Warp in a show of blatant hypocrisy on their part.

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra. We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit. Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction. They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus. In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

The newer fluff, however is that the Emperor sent Russ to take Magnus to Terra and that Horus changed his orders. As for the punishment, it's not too hard to imagine Russ claiming that Magnus started the fight and that the Space Wolves were forced to destroy everything. Besides, the Imperium was erupting with rebellion by that point, the Emperor couldn't really risk giving Russ a reason to turn against him.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian. The edict passed at Nikea specifically and intentionally targeted that which had been "tainted" by the teachings of Magnus. It specifically targetted the librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium. Again all things specifically "tainted" by Magnus' teachings. At no time whatsoever were the SW or their rune priests ever tainted by the teachings of Magnus. In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

The SW are hypocrites for claiming that the use of the Warp is bad, while using it themselves, and liars or fools for claiming that Rune Priests don't use Warp power.

The fact is that what happened on Prospero and to the Thousand Sons was exactly what was forewarned by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea. There was no exception given in that decree for Magnus being taken back to Terra. Whether you want to try and deflect Russ' actions with supposed orders from Horus, you also have sources citing Russ being given his orders directly from the Emperor to sanction the Thousand Sons.

But the new fluff retcons the old, and the new says that Horus changed Russ' orders and Russ gladly obeyed his new orders in order to pursue a personal vendetta, ignoring what the Emperor had told him to do.

Vaktathi wrote:

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian.

In name only. They mistakenly (or willfuly ignorant) think their powers come from Fenris rather than the warp, and use powers based on the feral traditions of the natives of Fenris, instead of those prescribed by the Codex. Aside from the specifics of the powers and where they think their powers come from, they fulfill the same role in much the same manner.

See earlier comments regarding this. This is why the SW's are seen as hypocritical.

"Oh man, we have this dude who fulfills the same role in much the same way as your not-ok dude, but because he believes his power comes from elsewhere so he's totally ok"

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

I think it's also worth noting that the Thousand Sons themselves noted the power in simply believing in something; hence the power of talismans etc.

There's also a difference between using the power of the Warp (Librarians, Psykers etc.) and co-opting with the powers of the warp (Sorcerers), with the Thousand Sons leaning much more towards the latter and Rune Priests towards the former.
I don't deny there is at-least some level of hypocrisy here, but as I stated earlier, there's a lot of things that could also justify this.

Furthermore, to re-iterate, Magnus himself states that he knows Russ took no pleasure in the destruction of Prospero or the Thousand Sons.


And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Jayden63 wrote:

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

Right, and I can understand this to an extent, but at the same time if they're still swimming the currents of the Warp in PB (meaning yeah, the planet Fenris probably isn't some mystical power source other than as a possible conduit to the warp) and are still described as using psychic (warp based) powers even in their fluff, and IIRC there's a passage in the Index Astartes about Rune Priests vs Librarians, and basically it boils down to "codex powers and training" versus "native fenris teachings and powers", otherwise fulfilling pretty much the same roles and general methods both on and off the battlefield.

I'm sure you could look at pretty much any chapter that's not strictly codex adherent and find similar differences. Certainly it'd be hard to see White Scars or Emperor's Children Librarians as having operated the same way using the same powers and psychic training methods as the Thousand Sons, Flesh Tearers, Doom Eagles or Raven Guard for example. Hence why the "but Runepriests are Different!" thing is hard to take seriously as anything other than "SW's are Space Marines+1!"

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

Right, and I can understand this to an extent, but at the same time if they're still swimming the currents of the Warp in PB (meaning yeah, the planet Fenris probably isn't some mystical power source other than as a possible conduit to the warp) and are still described as using psychic (warp based) powers even in their fluff, and IIRC there's a passage in the Index Astartes about Rune Priests vs Librarians, and basically it boils down to "codex powers and training" versus "native fenris teachings and powers", otherwise fulfilling pretty much the same roles and general methods both on and off the battlefield.

I'm sure you could look at pretty much any chapter that's not strictly codex adherent and find similar differences. Certainly it'd be hard to see White Scars or Emperor's Children Librarians as having operated the same way using the same powers and psychic training methods as the Thousand Sons, Flesh Tearers, Doom Eagles or Raven Guard for example. Hence why the "but Runepriests are Different!" thing is hard to take seriously as anything other than "SW's are Space Marines+1!"

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision. The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

Just Dave wrote:And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Know what, I agree. I was about to post something, but taking the time to think about it, I understand how futile it would be to write a reasonable answer to such claims as "Rune Priests are totally not psykers. And they're eco-friendly to boot !"

Hyd wrote:

Just Dave wrote:And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Know what, I agree. I was about to post something, but taking the time to think about it, I understand how futile it would be to write a reasonable answer to such claims as "Rune Priests are totally not psykers. And they're eco-friendly to boot !"

Except noone at all is saying that rune priests are not psykers. They are however NOT librarians and thus now way affected by the edict passed at the Council of Nikea.

I personally don't have a problem with SW being "Smart barbarians". They know exactly what they are doing, and they are as cunning as any, and more than most. But when it comes to battle, they revel in their superiority of arms, rather than go through the motions as stoic warrior-monks like most of the other Chapters.

It's probably arguable that when you compare a Space Wolf brother to a normal warrior of Fenris, Space Wolves are the Chapter that keeps most of their inborn humanity after the change (other than the Wolfen Curse, of course). All the rest of the Chapters become these aloof monks that are set apart from humans by their change.

AegisGrimm wrote:I personally don't have a problem with SW being "Smart barbarians". They know exactly what they are doing, and they are as cunning as any, and more than most. But when it comes to battle, they revel in their superiority of arms, rather than go through the motions as stoic warrior-monks like most of the other Chapters.

It's probably arguable that when you compare a Space Wolf brother to a normal warrior of Fenris, Space Wolves are the Chapter that keeps most of their inborn humanity after the change (other than the Wolfen Curse, of course). All the rest of the Chapters become these aloof monks that are set apart from humans by their change.

The Salamanders also retain a very solid link with humanity but you are correct in that many other chapters setting themselves not only apart but also as superiors.

It is interesting that Leman Russ, when first reunited with his father, chose to keep the Fenrisian population in their current state and did not have Fenris terraformed to become a more hospitable planet. He wanted his Legion to be made up of what Fenris had created.

Brother Ramses wrote:

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision.


The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Except that only Navigators and Astropaths were to remain in Astartes service employing Psychic powers.

You're trying to argue an entire concept based on naming semantics. So their rituals that extend from native (unsactioned pre-imperial primitive psychic meddlings) knowledge are somehow demonstrably superior and distinct to that utilized by the other legions/chapters (even those that themselves are quite distinct from the post heresy Codex ideal and were even more distinct from each other including from the Thousand Sons before the Heresy) in an identical organizational/battlefield role, as to be completely uncovered by an edict that mentions only Navigators and Astropaths as acceptable for psykers remaining in Astartes service? That's silly.

The difference here is not "criminal with a gun versus police with a gun" it's more "dude with Kalashnikov versus dude with M-16". Tools are different in creation and internal mechanics of operation, but ultimately do the same thing in the same role for the same sorts of people, just adapted for their circumstances. To argue that they wouldn't be covered by Nikea, where only Astropaths and Navigators were given exceptions, makes no sense.

Ultimately, one will also notice that the Thousand Sons were pretty much the only group that the Edict affected, with other Legions maintaining Librarians through the the conflict and retaining Librarians to the present game setting.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

It's one thing to express the subtleties and mechanics of hunting. It's another to focus over and over again on their brutality and then try and play it off as cunning, and either way the concept comes off as obnoxiously arrogant the way it's usually expressed, relying on enemies basically being far more stupid than they should be in order to make much sense.

The quietude wasn't all that brilliant, the fight described was pretty run of the mill SM battle pulp. What they focus on repeatedly is the overwhelming brutality. Later they try somehow being so brutal that it makes enemies think they are unthinking savages and thus underestimate them so the SW's can beat them with yet more brutality apparently, all the while (despite fighting for an Emperor who intends to see superstition and ritual cleansed from the universe) carve superstitious runes into everything as some sort of ward against evil.

You're both arguing opinions and semantics that are not going to change.

Vaktathi wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision.


The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Except that only Navigators and Astropaths were to remain in Astartes service employing Psychic powers.

You're trying to argue an entire concept based on naming semantics. So their rituals that extend from native (unsactioned pre-imperial primitive psychic meddlings) knowledge are somehow demonstrably superior and distinct to that utilized by the other legions/chapters (even those that themselves are quite distinct from the post heresy Codex ideal and were even more distinct from each other including from the Thousand Sons before the Heresy) in an identical organizational/battlefield role, as to be completely uncovered by an edict that mentions only Navigators and Astropaths as acceptable for psykers remaining in Astartes service? That's silly.

The difference here is not "criminal with a gun versus police with a gun" it's more "dude with Kalashnikov versus dude with M-16". Tools are different in creation and internal mechanics of operation, but ultimately do the same thing in the same role for the same sorts of people, just adapted for their circumstances. To argue that they wouldn't be covered by Nikea, where only Astropaths and Navigators were given exceptions, makes no sense.

Ultimately, one will also notice that the Thousand Sons were pretty much the only group that the Edict affected, with other Legions maintaining Librarians through the the conflict and retaining Librarians to the present game setting.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

It's one thing to express the subtleties and mechanics of hunting. It's another to focus over and over again on their brutality and then try and play it off as cunning, and either way the concept comes off as obnoxiously arrogant the way it's usually expressed, relying on enemies basically being far more stupid than they should be in order to make much sense.

The quietude wasn't all that brilliant, the fight described was pretty run of the mill SM battle pulp. What they focus on repeatedly is the overwhelming brutality. Later they try somehow being so brutal that it makes enemies think they are unthinking savages and thus underestimate them so the SW's can beat them with yet more brutality apparently, all the while (despite fighting for an Emperor who intends to see superstition and ritual cleansed from the universe) carve superstitious runes into everything as some sort of ward against evil.

I am going to tackle the above bolded text first as it is the most blatant bs you are hinging your argument.

A Thousad Sons, page 355;

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

That is the Emperor's edict he passed in A Thousand Sons. He specifically and directly targeted the very program that Magnus was key in creating and responsible for training/teaching. Now again, please tell me when rune priests were ever part of the Librarium program. By all means please show me where Magnus EVER had a hand in training/instructing the rune priests of the Space Wolves. You keep saying the use of psychic powers was only allowed by navigators and astropaths and yet the edict specifically only disbands the Legions Librarius departments and specifically bans those former librarians from ever employing psychic powers. You are wrong and the above quote proves it.

It isn't semantics, it is a specific difference between the attitude towards and methods of employment that proves rune priests are not librarians per the edict passed by the Emperor.

I find it humerous that you just dismiss the initial assault on the Quietude as battle pulp.

The SW employ tactics specifically to reduce the reaction time of a wired network of combatants to reduce reaction time. They then take into account the rapid adaption of their enemy to incoming fire by first using the enemies weapons against them, waiting for the adaption, and switching back to their standard fire arms. Lastly, they do not merely destroy everything in sight. They preserve the control room and the facility for the technicians to examine. Fast forward to the IG being forced into a stalemate by the Quietude on the planet and we have the wolf lord manipulate the commanders into giving him full control of the theater and using the orbital station as a weapon to break the stalemate.

Seriously, you remind me of a just bleed MMA fan that only sees a fight in one dimension and cannot see the technique and application of style. Your view of the SW only follows what they say and do, yet not account for any of the thought put into the actual battle.

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

Now that is arguing semantics....

However the context of the last sentence speaks to the Librarius as it includes the instructors as well.

Brother Ramses wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

Now that is arguing semantics....

That's the legal world for you.

I can nothing but dig the Space Wolfes for their refreshing anti-athority style.
When the empires consists of nothing but the Codex slave marines and the allways scared Imperial Guard, its nice with some lunatic space viking action.

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

akoro18 wrote:

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

I don't have my older Wolves codex's available, can anyone confirm that this stupid was in the older books?

Or was it just added for 5th.

How has no one mentioned that they fired at an Ecclesiarchy ship when they came to investigate Fenris? Attacking the inquisition, I can understand somewhat, but come on...

akoro18 wrote:I can nothing but dig the Space Wolfes for their refreshing anti-athority style.
When the empires consists of nothing but the Codex slave marines and the allways scared Imperial Guard, its nice with some lunatic space viking action.

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

I think you forgot a Chapter ...