Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

Chimaera wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

I was the one posting about Weirdmake, so I thought I'd answer-yeah, he saved one of the TSs (I think it may have been Ahriman, actually), and he feigned friendship-would you a trust a guy who saved your life? I would. Then blindsided, the guy who saves your life denounces you and says you need to give up your entire life. What? Oh, then he happily kills your brother after he reveals his true nature and comes to kill you too. Yeah, a jerk-off move if I ever saw one.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

I was the one posting about Weirdmake, so I thought I'd answer-yeah, he saved one of the TSs (I think it may have been Ahriman, actually), and he feigned friendship-would you a trust a guy who saved your life? I would. Then blindsided, the guy who saves your life denounces you and says you need to give up your entire life. What? Oh, then he happily kills your brother after he reveals his true nature and comes to kill you too. Yeah, a jerk-off move if I ever saw one.

This, basically. He saved him so he could turn on him when it was to his legions advantage to do so. Not the actions of an honorable forthright Viking warrior

Also, the "ultimate sanction/executioners" aspect reeked of arrogance the way it was portrayed, to the point where it sounds like it was something the SW's made up for themselves, rather than something the Emperor actually intended them for. IIRC it's also a rather new aspect of their fluff created for the HH series.

Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks. Rather than kill him on discovery they showed some compasion although in the end I think they put him in stasis due to threat he represented.

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart. It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Just Dave wrote:Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

<snip a lot of good writing>

This is pretty much how I feel. SW is not the most powerful codex on the table right now, and even if it was, someone has to be the top dog. I'm sorry its just not the codex (you the person reading this) currently playing.

I also think that a lot of the SW hate comes from the fact that they are somewhat getting a lot of attention right now. Second wave of models, several novels published fairly recently, the continuation of SW hate threads that pop up every week.

If White Scars got this much attention, I think a lot of people would hate on them. Because its easier to go with the flow (especially a negative flow) than stick up for what you like especially on the internet where its just about impossible to get called out for it.

But I'll acknowledge that there are some out there who genuinely hate them. I currently really hate and can't stand the GKs. I've never cared that much for blood angles either. But thats me and you are you.

In addition, its your game, its your battles. If a part of the fluff of (insert army here) annoys you, just ignore it. Its not like anyone is trying to reproduce "named epic battle fought in some novel" here.

Chimaera wrote:Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

They hadn't fallen by then, they didn't turn to Chaos until forced into battle against their own and did so out of desparation. They may have been not quite as aware of what they were messing with as Librarians are now, but they weren't undercover Tzeentch cultists either, not knowingly or willingly. It wasn't until Prospero was in ruins and Magnus gravely wounded that they turned to Chaos and Tzeentch for salvation. They may have been manipulated into getting to that point, but weren't themselves aware of or willingly following that path until then.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks.

Yes, but he was never trying to fulfill a Viking archetype/theme either

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart.

It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

Vaktathi wrote:It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

Outcast Dead and the Word Bearer book.

Jayden63 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

<snip a lot of good writing>

This is pretty much how I feel. SW is not the most powerful codex on the table right now, and even if it was, someone has to be the top dog. I'm sorry its just not the codex (you the person reading this) currently playing.

I also think that a lot of the SW hate comes from the fact that they are somewhat getting a lot of attention right now. Second wave of models, several novels published fairly recently, the continuation of SW hate threads that pop up every week.

If White Scars got this much attention, I think a lot of people would hate on them. Because its easier to go with the flow (especially a negative flow) than stick up for what you like especially on the internet where its just about impossible to get called out for it.

But I'll acknowledge that there are some out there who genuinely hate them. I currently really hate and can't stand the GKs. I've never cared that much for blood angles either. But thats me and you are you.

In addition, its your game, its your battles. If a part of the fluff of (insert army here) annoys you, just ignore it. Its not like anyone is trying to reproduce "named epic battle fought in some novel" here.

I can't speak for others, but for me, your reasoning for hate couldn't be further from the truth-I couldn't stand them before their new models were coming-the TWs and FWs have no basis for my hate. I didn't hate White Scars when Korsaro Khan came out, nor Dark Eldar when they got a new army. I usually like opponents getting new things they've been waiting for, and I sometimes like to pick up new things I'd never use (like a new Hive Tyrant). I'm not a sucker sheep who goes with everyone else either, my opinion is my own. And yes, I recognize you mentioned some people just straight up hate them (I'm one of em)-so I'm not claiming you're wrong, wrong, wrong-just that your opinion definitely doesn't describe me, and I'll assume it probably doesn't cover most others. Let the SW hate continue! It nourishes me...

Just wait till another set of BL books comes out showing a completely different portrayal of [insert chapter(s) here] to have everyone up in arms on the exact opposite sides...


"Zomg! In Prospero doesn't burn, magnus is a complee toolbag! Thank the emprah that Russ did the knoble thang and dealt with magnus before (spoiler) happened!!!"

Ebb and flow, pendulum effect, whatever.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

They hadn't fallen by then, they didn't turn to Chaos until forced into battle against their own and did so out of desparation. They may have been not quite as aware of what they were messing with as Librarians are now, but they weren't undercover Tzeentch cultists either, not knowingly or willingly. It wasn't until Prospero was in ruins and Magnus gravely wounded that they turned to Chaos and Tzeentch for salvation. They may have been manipulated into getting to that point, but weren't themselves aware of or willingly following that path until then.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks.

Yes, but he was never trying to fulfill a Viking archetype/theme either

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart.

It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

The TS were down the path to Chaos from the point they awoke dark tech and Magnus killed the Serpent on the planet I cannot remember the name of. They were pawns wholly from this point as the snake let Magnus kill him just so he would believe he was all powerful so he could be manipulated further. Weirdmarke was probably just assessing how far they had gone and knew they would not return in to the fold. Magnus thought he was stronger than the Chaos gods but in the end he realised he was a pawn all along and he submitted fully. If he was truly loyal why didn't he choose the honourable/loyal path and die in battle.

Do you think the Vikings of old didn't use cunning, deception or outright underhand tactics to achieve their goals? I also don't see the SW's as being based on Vikings alone but a sort of mash up between the Celt, Pict, Druid and Norse mythology.

When they attacked Prospero do you honestly think they could have done it half hearted?

Pretre has covered this one off.

They wouldn't have attacked Prospero half hearted but that doesn't mean they liked doing it...

This thread lacks pictures.



Not that I dislike them, it's just a bit silly.
Call me a dead horse beater, but I remember from school that a lexical field is comprised of more than one word. The leitmotiv feels a tad heavy-handed.
There's their unusually high quality/price ratio of course... With all the fuss about GK, I wonder how it was when they released the SW 'dex.

Skylifter wrote:2: The models. They, too, were quite vikingy in 2nd to 4th ed, but the new ones are just too exaggerated. The hairdos are completely silly

Yep.
I remember I found the PA Rune Priest to be one of the most badass GW models when they released it. Beard, braids, fierce look and stance : check, check, double check. It went kind of downhill from there to me...

KingDeath wrote:They tend to be horrible Marry Sues ( or the male equivalent )

They call it "Marty Stu"

(Again, this post is tongue-in-cheek. "Hating" an army is silly. Heck, I actually like the Space Wolves, but it's an amusing occasion to point out what I find silly with them.)

Vaktathi wrote: It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

I dunno, man.
I mean, even if it did seem like they were easily duped, that may well be the fault of the writer rather than the in-fluff characters.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Abnett's stuff, but it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

Not to mention the difficulty to write supremely intelligent characters when the author himself is a normal human being.

-Loki- wrote:My main gripe is simply JOTWW. It shouldn't exist.

This isn't coming from me as a Tyranid player, because I don't know any Space Wolves players and I've never had it used against me. Simply, it's a powerful psychic power that avoids almost every hoop you jump through to remove a model from the table.

Roll to hit? Nah. Roll to wound? Nah. Enemy gets an armour save? Nah. Enemy gets an invulnerable save? Nah. Enemy gets a Feel No Pain save? Nah. Enemy gets a cover save? Nah. Enemy has multiple wounds? Doesn't matter. Enemy has Eternal Warrior? Doesn't matter. Model was in a squad, therefore not selectable by the SW player as a target? Doesn't matter.

Psychic test, enemy takes Initiative tests, models under the line (only those under the line, unlike every other shooting ability) that failed removed from the table. It's simply poor game design.

Its NOT Poor game design, GK,Chaos, Necrons, BA, ORKS,

ALL have the same exact thing under the same conditions.

Psychic test or shooting, You fail a test and your done. The ONLY difference with SW is that it can be done from a distance instead of up close...OH..wait..Necrons can do it from a distance too and its even easier for them too because they have TWO models in their list that can do it. With Necrons they can have up to 5 models on the table that can wipe stuff off the table.

Don't go with the whole snipping stuff off the table defense because its not valid. The others can do it too! They can specifically walk up to a certain model and take it off the table.

Also if that is not as bad.

Ever wonder what happens when a squad assaults your tank and wrecks it?

Ever wonder what happens if all their models are pressed against your hatches where you deploy and you loose the ability to deploy?

Your ten man squad of Terminators and your two 200 point HQ's go poof!

I seen it happen and from simple assaulting a tank with no special rules. If anything needs to change its not SW its the basic rules.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

I dunno, man.
I mean, even if it did seem like they were easily duped, that may well be the fault of the writer rather than the in-fluff characters.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Abnett's stuff, but it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't think it was just a case of Horus saying to Russ the Emperor now wants you to wipe out the TS. There would have been a much bigger deception going on. After all Horus managed to play the big deception without anyone else noticing apart from Magnus. Again I think Chaos manipulated Magnus again just so he would breach the Palace Psychic seals and at this point Magnus probably lost credibility with his info to the Emperor and if anything the Emperor probably saw him as the threat and not Horus as he probably understood Chaos & the Warp had a hold on Magnus.

Vasarto wrote:

-Loki- wrote:My main gripe is simply JOTWW. It shouldn't exist.

This isn't coming from me as a Tyranid player, because I don't know any Space Wolves players and I've never had it used against me. Simply, it's a powerful psychic power that avoids almost every hoop you jump through to remove a model from the table.

Roll to hit? Nah. Roll to wound? Nah. Enemy gets an armour save? Nah. Enemy gets an invulnerable save? Nah. Enemy gets a Feel No Pain save? Nah. Enemy gets a cover save? Nah. Enemy has multiple wounds? Doesn't matter. Enemy has Eternal Warrior? Doesn't matter. Model was in a squad, therefore not selectable by the SW player as a target? Doesn't matter.

Psychic test, enemy takes Initiative tests, models under the line (only those under the line, unlike every other shooting ability) that failed removed from the table. It's simply poor game design.

Its NOT Poor game design, GK,Chaos, Necrons, BA, ORKS,

ALL have the same exact thing under the same conditions.

GKs have it in Template form. Chaos have it requiring the psyker to be within 6" of the target at the start of the Chaos turn, Necrons is 12" range and random for the Beamer, Time's Arrow requires B2B, BA doesn't remove models, Orks is from a Special Character.

The minimum cost for these is:
GKs - 155pts
Chaos - 130pts
Necrons: Beamer - 50pts, Arrow - 235pts
Orks - 145pts

JotWW requires 100pts, is longer ranged than all of these, can snipe models from this distance (only Zogwort's Curse is comparable, being able to snipe at 18" but taking up a HQ slot that could otherwise be filled with a better choice), and does not require LoS to any models apart from the first hit.

The effects you listed as being the same have drawbacks that are cost, range, use of a slot that would otherwise be more useful if filled differently, random chance, or a mix.

I also don't get why Necrons are special for having two models capable of it, every army listed bar the Orks can have two models capable to it, and Space Wolves can have four, something which you neglected to mention.

The Ork one only works on SC's, Requires a psychic test, and has a very short range. It also doesn't kill the target, and requires you to take an otherwise rather useless HQ choice.

(and they can't take FOUR of the fethers, all doing this at the same time, to a line of models )

Orks also have the SAG, but that only has a 1/36 chance of vaporing it's target (minus rolling for scatter), an equal chance of killing itself and everything around it, and a far greater chance of hurting itself (getting thrown into melee, shooting your own army).

Wow... JOTWW hate rollin in. Lets list other things that just shouldn't exist or are too cheap.

Psybolt ammo - S8 auto cannons for 5 points. Yes please.
Comander Dante - Your star god just caught a cold. - w, -ld, -ws. just because Dante touched the table top.
Mind Shackle Scarabs. 50% chance of making your 200+ point model attack his own squad. Yes please.
Surfer lord - HTH S7 power weapon attacks in the movement phase. No armor, no cover, can't fight back on a roll of 6 can pick his target, Screw you P-fist or whatever.
Mephiston - Phenomenal monstrous creature stats - Ittity bitty base
Melta Vets - Waaay to much firepower for points.
Chimmera - Special rules up the wazoo that remove all disadvantages from being in a vehicle for Leader type characters.
Lash of submission- yes, yes you did move, smile for the boom.

The list goes on and on and on. Jotww imo is quite tame compared to other cheese that can be brought onto the table.

Just because those exist doesn't mean that JOTWW isn't any less of a problem

I don't mind the SW... There codex has some OP Units in the like all SM codexes do these days, but overall they are fine....

Fine that is as a SM chapter which at the end of the day is about as interesting and amusing as finding gum in your hair.

Jayden63 wrote:Wow... JOTWW hate rollin in. Lets list other things that just shouldn't exist or are too cheap.

Psybolt ammo - S8 auto cannons for 5 points. Yes please. I doubt you'll find many people who disagree that psybolt ammo is undercosted on dreadnoughts
Comander Dante - Your star god just caught a cold. - w, -ld, -ws. just because Dante touched the table top. Again, a somewhat unnecessarily silly rule
Mind Shackle Scarabs. 50% chance of making your 200+ point model attack his own squad. Yes please. Average on 3D6 is only 10.5, so it's not amazingly overpowered (a lot of people still successfully cast powers whilst under the effects of Runes of Warding, for example, but a lot of people don't try because they could Perils more easily), but 2D6 would've sufficed.
Surfer lord - HTH S7 power weapon attacks in the movement phase. No armor, no cover, can't fight back on a roll of 6 can pick his target, Screw you P-fist or whatever. Only 3 attacks, hitting mostly on 4s, and only being able to pick 1.6th of the time, is not really overpowered for a model that costs 180pts
Mephiston - Phenomenal monstrous creature stats - Ittity bitty base And no invulnerable save.
Melta Vets - Waaay to much firepower for points. 3 BS4 Meltaguns for 155pts is too much firepower? It can get annoying if they're spammed, but that's just Mech Guard for you.
Chimmera - Special rules up the wazoo that remove all disadvantages from being in a vehicle for Leader type characters. This is a joke, right?
Lash of submission- yes, yes you did move, smile for the boom. Not nearly as good as it used to be, and one of the only saving graces of a book that's sub-par in almost every way.

The list goes on and on and on. Jotww imo is quite tame compared to other cheese that can be brought onto the table.

Like Luke said, just because some other things exist does not mean that JotWW is fine. Heck, this is a thread solely about SW, so I hope you're not surprised that you're finding mainly SW-related peeves here, and nobody whining about psybolt ammo.

SW are pretty cool space marines they look horrible but everything else about them is cool.
Now then the reason i like them is mostly because of the BotF book(really well done shows the SWs better than other books)

Because all SW lists are practically the same. JOTWW is not fun to play against, especially spammed. The internal balance of the book is so good a cavema...Viking could do it.

Just boring to see Grey Hunters + Missle Launchers + JOTWW everywhere. There are a lot of viable units besides, but the weakminded like to use the easy button rather than use other units.

They also now have a complete line of models. Not that Im excited about Wolves. I guess its cool if its encourages a build besides the above...lowers the cost of the resin 2nd hand market.

That seems to be the crux of the hate. But lets face it SW ALWAYS get cool competative stuff, really burns other SM chapter players and makes them feel neglected=jelous.

Task and Purpose wrote:Because all SW lists are practically the same.

No their not.

I am planning to play a 40-60mm Shuffle Army, with Bjorn, Canis, a ton of wolves and mucho TWC.

You could also, you know, go for a Loganwing? Or how about a Wolf Scouts outflanking army?

The variety is there. But because MEHTAL BAWKSES are the fad, people only know SW as the guys with the Long Fangs and Grey Hunters in Las/Plas Razorbacks.

Chowderhead wrote:

Task and Purpose wrote:Because all SW lists are practically the same.

No their not.

I am planning to play a 40-60mm Shuffle Army, with Bjorn, Canis, a ton of wolves and mucho TWC.

You could also, you know, go for a Loganwing? Or how about a Wolf Scouts outflanking army?

The variety is there. But because MEHTAL BAWKSES are the fad, people only know SW as the guys with the Long Fangs and Grey Hunters in Las/Plas Razorbacks.

I agree, you get a cookie. Come to HI and we can play, I said there are a lot of very viable builds...I just never see them.

Second to all the TS boo hooing, Magnus was a lazy punk. He knew the rules. He could have had his entire legion board its ships and make way to Terra immediately. Horus would have had to check himself and having another 2 Primarchs at Terra. The Wolves and TS would S***Stomp the remains of the SOH.

Russ did what he did because he could do it and he was told to do it. He was made for the job that The Warmaster gave him. He was in charge while the Big-E was away and Russ listened. Yea he was looking for an excuse but Magnus was a douche anyways. He was gonna turn to Chaos anyways. No one who ever defends the TS ever wants to say that "Hey remember when Magnus used chaos to heal his marines?" Yea he didn't really know it was Chaos but why didn't he just ask Pops for help? "Hey Magnus don't use your powers anymore." "DAD DAD DAD HORUS is...ooooooooo... I did what you didn't tell me to do and messed up everything. you were doing." Come on now. He was played like a fiddle by Tzeentch.

Task and Purpose wrote:I agree, you get a cookie. Come to HI and we can play, I said there are a lot of very viable builds...I just never see them.

Second to all the TS boo hooing, Magnus was a lazy punk. He knew the rules. He could have had his entire legion board its ships and make way to Terra immediately. Horus would have had to check himself and having another 2 Primarchs at Terra. The Wolves and TS would S***Stomp the remains of the SOH.

Magnus should have made his way to Terra...would that be going through the warp? You know, during the time Chaos was screwing with it and everyone was having trouble getting where they were going? What a wonderful idea...Magnus knew the warp was acting up, as did most other Primarchs and commanders. Traveling would have taken too long (if he even got there). It had nothing to do with laziness. He was doing what he THOUGHT was right, even though he ended up making a poor choice by doing it. However, the Emperor should have listened anyway. Maybe Magnus should have flat out offered his life up to the Emperor then and there, but tell the Emp that his sacrifice was worth it, if it enabled the Imperium to stop Horus. Who knows-that's how I'd do it, but I digress. Magnus made a mistake, but it was a tough call-and your example, unfortunately, does not fit with current events transpiring. Doesn't change Russ's and his mongrels' actions as d-baggery.