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SwiftLord14 wrote:Russ did what he did because he could do it and he was told to do it. He was made for the job that The Warmaster gave him. He was in charge while the Big-E was away and Russ listened. Yea he was looking for an excuse but Magnus was a douche anyways. He was gonna turn to Chaos anyways. No one who ever defends the TS ever wants to say that "Hey remember when Magnus used chaos to heal his marines?" Yea he didn't really know it was Chaos but why didn't he just ask Pops for help? "Hey Magnus don't use your powers anymore." "DAD DAD DAD HORUS is...ooooooooo... I did what you didn't tell me to do and messed up everything. you were doing." Come on now. He was played like a fiddle by Tzeentch.

The TS were indeed manipulated by Chaos, but the Space Wolves just as much. If they hadn't been tricked into intervening, the TS might've realized what they were doing was wrong and saved themselves.

Magnus DID know he was doing something wrong. That's why he didn't even try to stop the wolves from getting on his planet.

SwiftLord14 wrote:Magnus DID know he was doing something wrong. That's why he didn't even try to stop the wolves from getting on his planet.

Read "A Thousand Sons." When he saw the Space Wolves executing everyone and burning the Libraries (as Horus had manipulated them into doing) he changed his mind and saved his Legion.

I've read it. I said he didn't stop them from getting on the planet. I didn't say he didn't defend it when they get on it.

You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

I had fun painting some of the models for someone. I hate the look of the hair, like they just touched a light socket. I don't hate the SW but sometimes I wish GW would take a break from SM anything. I'd like to see Eldar get revamped, Tau for sure. That would great. I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

XCom wrote:I had fun painting some of the models for someone. I hate the look of the hair, like they just touched a light socket. I don't hate the SW but sometimes I wish GW would take a break from SM anything. I'd like to see Eldar get revamped, Tau for sure. That would great. I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

They do need to do something else. Let the Tau have their glory. I can't imagine that they are gonna lose anything by doing that. Hell let all the other races that need it be touched on.


But a lot of their hairstyles are kinda goofy.

XCom wrote: I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

Never happen, lol. Space Marines are the flagship product of 40K. They are featured in more products because they sell more models. GW knows that no matter how an edition is received, any boxed set with Spess Mahreens in it will sell.

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

Especially when said son was using something the Emperor had specifically forbidden, unlike (seemingly) the more trustworthy son?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

The emperor pretty much abolished sorcery and claimed anyone practicing it would forfeit their life. If Magnus was willing to risk his life doing something he knew could get him killed, he must have done it for good reason-not for gaks and giggles.

timetowaste85 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

The emperor pretty much abolished sorcery and claimed anyone practicing it would forfeit their life. If Magnus was willing to risk his life doing something he knew could get him killed, he must have done it for good reason-not for gaks and giggles.

Despite the fact that the Big E knew that Magnus had all but withdrawn from the Crusade in shock at the aforementioned judgement?
It was pretty clear that Magnus was upset about the ruling and this might have been his way of showing off that he could control psychic powers - which it turns out he couldn't.

It is hinted that The Big E knew that Magnus was right in the first place. (Plus he finds out definitively afterwards anyways.)
They point is that he doesn't care what Magnus was going to tell him. He cares that Magnus screwed the pooch pretty hardcore and not only screwed the pooch but screwed it in a thoroughly proscribed manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was another thread where someone said something like...

Imagine that your dad decided that driving cars was a really bad idea. He had some bad experiences and he told everyone 'Okay, no more driving cars. If I catch any of my kids driving their cars, they are dead to me. Literally.'

Now imagine you found out something REAL important to tell your dad. REALLLY IMPORTANT, like he's going to die and be betrayed by his favorite son. But he's like 20 miles away and your cell phone doesn't work. So you jump in a car, go careening drunkenly down the street killing tons of people and crash your car through your dad's living room destroying everything that he has worked years on.

The warning you're about to give him might be cold comfort. Especially since he probably already knew what you were going to tell him. To make it even worse, your joy ride may have not only not helped the good guys, but actually ended up putting them in a very vulnerable situation against that favorite son and his shenanigans as the thing he was working on could have been instrumental in defeating the traitors.

I.e. Magnus done f'd up hardcore. Sure the SW and the other legions all drove when their dad wasn't looking, but they didn't go on drunken driving killing sprees that end up massively damaging everything their dad was working to build.

It's a matter of degree. Keeping librarians in defiance of Nikea is a big step away from destroying the E's webway portal, killing thousands to hundreds of thousands of psykers on earth, using actual sorcery and teaming up with the big T.

Isn't anyone gonna touch on how stupidly powerful the SW rune priests are? with their ability that allows a line of units to be swallowed by the earth... or am I interpreting this ability wrongly?

bibblles wrote:Isn't anyone gonna touch on how stupidly powerful the SW rune priests are? with their ability that allows a line of units to be swallowed by the earth... or am I interpreting this ability wrongly?

Anyone going to bother to read the thread? Try that last page...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/434437.page#3997714

pretre wrote:It is hinted that The Big E knew that Magnus was right in the first place. (Plus he finds out definitively afterwards anyways.)
They point is that he doesn't care what Magnus was going to tell him. He cares that Magnus screwed the pooch pretty hardcore and not only screwed the pooch but screwed it in a thoroughly proscribed manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was another thread where someone said something like...

Imagine that your dad decided that driving cars was a really bad idea. He had some bad experiences and he told everyone 'Okay, no more driving cars. If I catch any of my kids driving their cars, they are dead to me. Literally.'

Now imagine you found out something REAL important to tell your dad. REALLLY IMPORTANT, like he's going to die and be betrayed by his favorite son. But he's like 20 miles away and your cell phone doesn't work. So you jump in a car, go careening drunkenly down the street killing tons of people and crash your car through your dad's living room destroying everything that he has worked years on.

The warning you're about to give him might be cold comfort. Especially since he probably already knew what you were going to tell him. To make it even worse, your joy ride may have not only not helped the good guys, but actually ended up putting them in a very vulnerable situation against that favorite son and his shenanigans as the thing he was working on could have been instrumental in defeating the traitors.

I.e. Magnus done f'd up hardcore. Sure the SW and the other legions all drove when their dad wasn't looking, but they didn't go on drunken driving killing sprees that end up massively damaging everything their dad was working to build.

It's a matter of degree. Keeping librarians in defiance of Nikea is a big step away from destroying the E's webway portal, killing thousands to hundreds of thousands of psykers on earth, using actual sorcery and teaming up with the big T.

The thing that complicates this all here however is that the Big E needed Magnus brought back to power the Golden Throne while he went off and did everything.

On top of that, most 40k fluff makes it rather clear that the Big E was blindsided by Horus's betrayal and that he pretty much didn't *really* listen to Magnus's warning.

So yeah, you crash the car through the window, then Dad doesn't actually listen to the warning about Favorite Son, but sends PunkSon to bring you back and hold the fort while he fixes everything, but instead PunkSon decides to just try to kill you and burn all your stuff and make sure you can't have nice things, forcing you to flee for your life and join forces with Favorite Son because you've got nowhere else to turn to and you don't want to die, while Favorite Son openly turns on Dad who isn't paying attention to what's happening and PunkSon has gone haywire trying to kill you because he thinks he's been given some sort of unofficial "sanctioner" mantle. Then because Dad doesn't have you to hold things down, everything ends up going to pot even moreso than it would have.

But Sanctioner isn't unofficial. It has been referred to in ATS, PB, TOD, AoD and the Word Bearer's book. By radically different points of view. Everyone knows what the wolves are for. I imagine, even the Emperor.

pretre wrote:But Sanctioner isn't unofficial. It has been referred to in ATS, PB, TOD, AoD and the Word Bearer's book. By radically different points of view. Everyone knows what the wolves are for. I imagine, even the Emperor.

Don't know about the Word Bearers book, but everywhere else it seemed like it was never an official thing, merely something that was implied or intimated, usually by the SW's themselves, and wasn't the most common of knowledge.

Before the newer HH books, it always seemed as though the Custodes (being even more powerful than Space Marines and still numbering in "weak" Legion strength) filled that role.

Either way, Magnus was supposed to be brought back to enable the Big E to take a forefront role in things back on earth instead of having to maintain the integrity of the imperial webway from the golden throne, the Big E didn't get/ignored the message from magnus, and the attack by the SW's drove the TS's into the arms of Tzeentch and to the side of Horus.

The other books it was mentioned in (Outcast Dead, Age of Darkness and Word Bearers Book) didn't even have SW.

It is also shown that Magnus was already there for Tzeentch. How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

I'm not saying that the wolves did the best thing, but when they were sent, I think it was clear what might happen based on their history.

How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

You mean the ones the Imperium itself uses? The dead, floating, psyker babies that were turned into unnatural abominations? Cherubim I think they were called.

I like the Space Wolves right up until the current codex. Like everything now, it's a wonderfully printed ream of Codex Creeping, over-powered, under-costed army information that gives me a ton of abilities and keywords to remember that sound like they are from Magic the Gathering.

I think the Space Wolves circa 2003 (the Eye of Terror summer campaign) were right perfectly spot-on for enjoyable playing. They were a pretty cool sub-codex that used the original Space Marines 'dex for it's basis, and you could also use the Eye of Terror codex to play a very interesting variant army which played very different to any other SM army but with very few rules additions to make it that way.

All their wargear that they shared with other chapter codex's and the base SM 'dex were priced exactly the same, or at least very, very close. All that changed to make them unique were the addition of things like True Grit, and some wargear that was wolf-themed (alot of which was just SM gear under a new name). Most of the units in the codex were different due to their stats, not a bunch of abilities.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

You mean the ones the Imperium itself uses? The dead, floating, psyker babies that were turned into unnatural abominations? Cherubim I think they were called.

No. In ATS, they all have little warp spirits that hang out with them. Tutelaries, iirc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:All their wargear that they shared with other chapter codex's and the base SM 'dex were priced exactly the same, or at least very, very close. All that changed to make them unique were the addition of things like True Grit, and some wargear that was wolf-themed (alot of which was just SM gear under a new name). Most of the units in the codex were different due to their stats, not a bunch of abilities.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

I like the Wolves, but I can't play them because of the cringe worthy names. The fact that they have a few ridiculously cheap upgrades and JOTWW kind of annoys me, as does their stance on psykers and Rune Priests, but that's about it. I do dislike their Heresy era incarnation though for their hypocrisy and savagery.

They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff, and yet one more reminder that it never makes sense to play Codex: Space Marines on the tabletop. Hate? No, I just think watching a 500 point Wolfstar run off the table when it gets Weaken Resolved is the funniest thing ever.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff,

They portray themselves as ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons as a strategy. It is clear that that's not what they actually are when you read PB. That's one of the whole points of the book.

Personally I dont find any of the SW fluff that disagreeable, hell a lot of it I find funny. To be honest they represent space marines with at least some semblance of character. As to the whole picking fights with the inquisition/administration lets face it the imperium wiped out/sterilised/enslaved a defending army after they won to keep the war quiet. And as for the whole convert to emperor worship or die for the tribes on Fenris, how would you like it if someone started polluting your recruit selection? for no apparent reason.

To be fair the splitting of the legions to chapters (Which space wolves apparently never did) was supposed to limit the power one military commander could have on overall imperial military strength. So how come the ultrasmurfs explain ruling a whole empire including naval assets, entire imperial guard battallions complete with tank companies and the resources to arm, equip and move them on a galactic scale. Honestly how much power does marenus calgar have over a significant part of the imperial military as a whole?

pretre wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff,

They portray themselves as ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons as a strategy. It is clear that that's not what they actually are when you read PB. That's one of the whole points of the book.

This never came about until PB, and only made them look more arrogant/hipsterish. It came off as a "oh we're so clever..." or "We're Space Marines...but Better!" type deal again. Even then, it was pretty much "we're going to look brutish and savage so they underestimate us..then we beat them by being...more brutal".

pretre wrote:
It is also shown that Magnus was already there for Tzeentch. How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

Familiars aren't exclusive to Tzeentch, many are human psykers or other various weird creatures that the Imperium has in abundance.

pretre wrote:
No. In ATS, they all have little warp spirits that hang out with them. Tutelaries, iirc.

IIRC they aren't described as anything daemonic. It's been a while since I've read the book, but from what I remember they weren't anything too terrible, they certainly don't make any connection to Tzeentch or the ruinous powers in general in the book from what I remember.

I'm not saying that the wolves did the best thing, but when they were sent, I think it was clear what might happen based on their history.

Which shows either a drastic lack of understanding of the relationships between the Legions on the Emperor's part, Russ's inability to do what he's told resulting in catastrophe, or both sadly.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

For a bit of 3rd ed, nothing like what they are now. When people ask about 3E power armies, SW's usually aren't what people think of. Eldar, CSM's, Necrons, etc. That said, the Leman Russ tanks was always an odd and hamfisted inclusion that never quite fit.

Pretty sure Tutelaries are actually Daemons considering they effectively take control over the Astartes that 'let' them. FWIW they're never stated as being familiars either.
Furthermore, Russ did as was ordered by both his superiors: his overall Boss - who had him apparently 'remove' Legions previously and had Russ present at Nikaea in-case Magnus got angry - and his 'other' Boss, Horus, who told him to take out the Thousand Sons altogether. Russ tried to give Magnus a chance to surrender.

Adopting the perspective of Russ, I can fully understand his actions. The Emperor didn't lend him the Sisters of Silence or Custodes to help put on the handcuffs in all likelihood.


And on this note, I'm again ducking out as personally I dislike debates where neither side will change their opinion, which is what seems to be happening here IMHO.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

For a bit of 3rd ed, nothing like what they are now. When people ask about 3E power armies, SW's usually aren't what people think of. Eldar, CSM's, Necrons, etc. That said, the Leman Russ tanks was always an odd and hamfisted inclusion that never quite fit.

The Leman Russ inclusion never made a lick of sense to me other than it's name. And if two "hidden" powerfists per "Troops" squad is what makes an army too powerful, I would hate to classify these latest three or four armies of 5th ed. Plus as far as I know the 4th ed assault rules killed "hidden" powerfists, didn't they?

Of course maybe three or four powerfists in an army never seemed like a big deal to me because when my bud and I play 40K (we use 4th ed rules still), I play the 13th company list from The Eye of Terror codex, which while their troops types are awesome in CC, and they get Wolfen squads as Elites, they are limited by:

-Troops with access to plasma guns had to pay twice the SM price for each one (12pts)
-Only Wolf Lord, Rune priest and Wolf Priest for HQ choices
-Only three choices in the entire codex have non-powerfist anti-tank capabilities, and for two of those it's only meltaguns.
-No Dreads
-No vehicles of any kind, including transports
-Only Bikes and Wolf packs as choices for for FA
-Their best close combat unit is an Elites choice
-Only Long Fangs with normal SM-priced weapons for HS, and they are the only heavy weapons in the army


The current SW codex is easily far and above more powerful in this edition than the old one in 3rd/4th. Plus all the goofy fluff changes happened during this edition, so I never had to think about them. Used to be that the Thousand Sons were misunderstood, even though they went against the express ruling of the Emperor, and that the Space Wolves were honorable Space Barbarians that killed them out of fear of their witchcraft. Originally the whole situation was everyone's fault, even the Emperor.

In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

The whole situation is still everyone's fault. Emperor knew who he was sending. Horus changed the order. Valdor and Russ didn't question it. Magnus was a tool and sulked while they dropped in.