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I became interested in the wolves after reading Prospero Burns. The savage, superstitious, nordic/celtic style described in the book felt interesting.
They perform these old rituals, which actually use the warp in various ways, because they are afraid of what might happen when anything changes.

The thing is that they might be correct. The 40k world does not seem to reward exploration and inventions regarding the warp.


But the models, codex, rules and everything else GW does around that chapter only emphasize the wolf side and making them be the best in every aspect. There is so much more that could be done with this theme than putting marines on giant wolves.

Counter attack is very fitting (if it cost them something), but why should they have the best physic powers and the best devastators? It just makes no sense.

Oppressor wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Original 18? I don't think even GW have gone as far as to retcon out the 2 missing legions, considering that the 20th Legion is still in fluff.

Name the 2 missing legions, their iconography, their colors, combat doctrine or any actions they have performed. Explain how they were even legions to begin with.

The aren't there so you can make up your own but are referenced in the fluff and rumour ahs it the SW wiped out one while the other one joined with the Ultramarines

Skylifter wrote:3: Just having read Battle for the Abyss (not a terribly good read, but okay), I must add that the stereotypical dumb barbarian style that is used to depict them a lot nowadays is rather boring, too. I liked the old Ragnar books a lot, though. But those were written before everything was wolfed up...

To be fair, you can hardly blame the Space Wolves as a whole for Ben Counter being an abysmally bad author.

Otherwise, sure, why not. The wolf thing is overblown (not the wolf names, mind you, the emphasis on it being everywhere in the 'dex) as a lot of those names have been in the dex since 2nd ed, but with the addition of newer ones on top of them, yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed with that.

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Yes, the Legion was called the Space Wolves. The point, however, is easier to explain using the Imperial Fists as example:

As the Legions were split up, the Chapters that were created were made up entirely of veterans from the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Claiming that the Imperial Fists Chapter has a greater claim to the glories gained by the Imperial Fists Legion than the Crimson Fists or the Black Templars is blatantly unfair: the original Crimson Fists and Black Templars fought as Imperial Fists, after all. As such, the most prestigious founding is the Second Founding. Third and onward have little to no claim to the glories, seeing as they're made up of new recruits, but all the Second Founding Chapters should be considered equal.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Skylifter wrote:3: Just having read Battle for the Abyss (not a terribly good read, but okay), I must add that the stereotypical dumb barbarian style that is used to depict them a lot nowadays is rather boring, too. I liked the old Ragnar books a lot, though. But those were written before everything was wolfed up...

To be fair, you can hardly blame the Space Wolves as a whole for Ben Counter being an abysmally bad author.

Otherwise, sure, why not. The wolf thing is overblown (not the wolf names, mind you, the emphasis on it being everywhere in the 'dex) as a lot of those names have been in the dex since 2nd ed, but with the addition of newer ones on top of them, yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed with that.

Well, true, if it were only for that one book, I'd probably not mind, but actually the SW are depicted as a rather blunt tool throughout the HH novels whenever they are mentioned by anyone outside their legion. I have not read further than Battle for the Abyss up to now, though.

It isn't the number of wolfy names that annoy me, either (though Canis Wolfborn really has to be one of the worst names by GW ever), it is that while in 2nd, Wolves were kind of just their totem animal in a mainly viking/barbarian culture, now everything in their background has to do with some actual kind of wolf - it has simply become overwhelming, pushing aside the viking theme almost completely. Even the fething hairdos in the new sprues look as though the sculptor had seen X-Men too much (and a wolverine isn't even a kind of wolf, it is a weasel, doh).

Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

A Thousand Orphans.

People's most regularly touted (don't use that word often) reasons for disliking the Space Wolves is their near-destruction of the Thousand Sons; effectively forcing them to turn to the side of Chaos. "But Dave, how can you agree with them destroying a chapter full of really cool Egyptian magicians and shizzle when they could have arrested the really cool Egyptians and shizzle?!" you may ask... It's not that I entirely agree with the action, it's that I don't disagree. Why?

The Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Leman Russ was present when the Emperor said this and did indeed "visit such destruction" upon the Thousand Sons. Magnus didn't just continue to employ psychic powers, he did so in a manner that completely/notoriously crippled the Emperors work on Terra and much of the functioning on Terra itself.

Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns/Outcast Dead spoilers:

In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

Again, I'm not saying I completely agree with the Space Wolves' actions, but as a Legion that were apparently used to do the dirty work and within the above context, I think it makes a lot of sense and doesn't really render the Space Wolves to blame IMHO. And that's not even going into the flaws of the Thousand Sons...


Nobody expects the Spacewolvestodefythe Inquisition

People often criticse the Space Wolves for defying the Inquisition. Personally, for this, I applaud them. In a civilization where the individual means nothing and power is given to the corrupt and scheming, I applaud the Space Wolves for not blindly following the orders of the Imperium and Inquisition. Lexicanum states:

"Although they had won, the victorious soldiers of Armageddon were doomed. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps. Armageddon was re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Inquisition for doing what he saw as a betrayal of the people who had fought honorably for their homes and for the Imperium."

So I applaud the Space Wolves for not bowing to the Inquisition, at this moment or others. I applaud the Space Wolves for staying true to the ideals of the (comparatively) golden era of the Emperor's Great Crusade and for not following the orders of the Inquisition or Imperium.
But the Space Wolves aren't alone in this; the Black Templars are the (probably) largest Space Marine Chapter and apparently have a close eye kept on them by the Inquisition, The Dark Angels follow their own agenda rather than the Imperium's/Inquisitions and provide little gene-seed for the creation of new chapters, the Blood Angels are notably divergent with flawed gene-seed and Chaos-like behaviours, and the list goes on...

The Space Wolves are probably amongst the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium and fiercely loyal to humanity and the Emperor, but not the Inquisition. I think it's not so much that the Space Wolves get away with things they shouldn't, but that for the Imperium they are MUCH better as an ally than an enemy, they are a well-known and well-liked Chapter, who is very active in defending humanity and fighting Chaos. I believe that not only are the Space Wolves doing the right thing by not following the orders of the Inquisition, but ultimately the Inquisition has little to gain by trying to bring them 'to heel.

Wolves, Wolves, Wolves, Wolves.

Another common criticism of the Space Wolves is the unoriginal naming of their equipment; that it all begins with Wolf. However, I feel this is made out to be much worse than it actually is (on the internet?! Never!). This naming convention goes back to 2nd(?) edition and actually makes sense. For example, a Wolf Tail Talisman is... A Wolf Tail! A Wolf Tooth Necklace is... A necklace made from a wolf's teeth! I don't see what else people would expect these items to be called? Then we get to more modern inventions, such as Lone Wolves and Wolf Claws. I think these too are appropriately named; Wolves have claws; it's an appropriate description and good imagery. Lone Wolf is an apt title for a unit, taken from an existing and well-known phrase.

Compare this naming convention, for example, to that displayed within the Blood Angels Codex, or the Grey Knights Codex. Bloodfists are just DCCW's, they're not made of blood and have no relation to blood except that they may cause it to leak from an unfortunate target. Bloodstrike Missiles, Bloodlance, Bloodshard Rounds; the same can be said for all of these. Whereas most of the titles within the Space Wolf Codex makes sense, these do not IMHO.

However, I do agree that Canis Wolfborn does have a rubbish title (and model).

Space Wolves are the most overpowered Codex Space Wolves have released for a decade!

But, can you definitively say that they are any more powerful than Grey Knights or Imperial Guard? Or that they cannot be beaten by other armies such as Necrons or Dark Eldar?
I agree, there are some internal balance issues within the Codex and it often doesn't encourage tactical gameplay; e.g. Long Fangs/Grey Hunters/ Rune Priests, but to say they are overpowered or unbeatable is incorrect IMHO, nor is it unique to the Space Wolves.

Vikings in Sphess

And? Vikings are cool. Things such as their theme and appearance are really characterful IMHO, so long as they don't go too far. Many Chapters/factions have obvious themes and these are preferences unique to individuals. I mean, for me, I really like the viking aspect to them, it was this image that inspired me to collect Space Wolves:



------

So, hopefully that wall of text explains my reasons for liking Space Wolves, why I personally disagree with some peoples reasons for disliking the Space Wolves, which hopefully I have shown may at-least be somewhat unjustified.

Dave, your first spoiler isn't actually in the box

Aside from how rediculous the rules and unit point costs are (though from what I've heard SW have always been a little OP), I dislike how often the fluff contradicts itself.

I wouldn't say that's a spoiler though (hence it's exclusion was intentional); everyone knows about Nikaea, I don't think an exact quote makes a difference IHMO.

I think every chapter has its inconsistencies and things people don't like about them.

I play Space Wolves because I like their theme and their fluff. Their rules on the tabletop don't fit my list for them (I don't do Runepriest, Long Fang, and Razorback spam) but I still find them awesome to paint and convert.

The Wolves are a chapter of a proud heritage and arguably the most loyal to the Emperor. Even after 10,000 years of constant turmoil, they remain true to their original ideas. They are the loyal dogs of the Emperor and whose bite is worse than their bark(yes I just said that).

Show me another original legion that laughs at the Codex Astartes and dislikes anyone who abuses the heroes of the Imperium (aka the Inquisition after the First War of Armageddon).

No matter what you say, the Space Wolves don't care. They will keep fighting and dying in battle just like Russ intended.

Ahh look, another thread for the whiners to get out their weekly SW tears.

Trolling/flamebaiting is not allowed on this site. Thanks ~ Manchu

The Inquisition is there for a reason, and for a good one. I'll be the first to say the Inquisition are a bunch of backstabbing, conniving, and ruthless pricks, but they are a necessity. As Chapter Master Angelos said: "Innocents die so humanity can live!" - you may say that bombing regiments during the 13th Black Crusade and 'locking down' the survivors of the First Armageddon War is going too far and condemning true Imperial heroes, but is there a guarantee that even if they endured the Chaos then, can they endure or escape the touch of Chaos afterwards? There is none. The Inquisition cannot ignore such risk, and even the Astartes must compromise, and grimly accept the Inquisition's decision. After all, the Astartes have the memories of their own cousins reminding them of how insidious and dangerous the touch of Chaos is...the Inquisition knows this too, and neither organization needs reminding.

"...the Inquisition merely performs the duty of it's office. To further fear them is redundant, to hate them, heretical."
- Chapter Master Gabriel Angelos, Blood Ravens Chapter, Adeptus Astartes

I don't hate the Inquisition, I hate the Ecclesiarchy, but I only disapprove of the Inquisition's methods, neither condoning nor condemning, just accepting.

And don't think Astartes and Inquisitors bear no guilt over their actions...their still Humans, and no matter what bio-engineering/cybernetic augmentation, they still have a conscience, and they have to live with that for the rest of their extended life-spans.

Tadashi wrote:Space Wolves seem to be the most-hated Chapter after the Ultramarines. But why? Is it because of their "Vikings in SPAAAAACE!" feel? Their 'misguided' actions in the Heresy ( I favor this)? Or their arrogant attitude with the rest of the Imperium and the Codex Astartes in particular (even for Astartes Space Wolves are quite arrogant)?

There are multiple reasons for this.

They come off as arrogant in a very un-viking way, almost hipster like, *especially* in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. They try to be too many, contradictory, often hypocritical things. "We don't use Psykers, they're bad, we have Rune Priests, they use the native power of Fenris, you've probably never heard of it..."

They try to be "dark" and "intentionally misunderstood" executioners in Prospero Burns who are simultaneously amazing spymasters with an excellente intelligence network while being intelligent and highly disciplined warriors while trying to portray an image of undisciplined brutality to their own allies for god knows what reason but being highly superstitious fighting for an Emperor who is trying to stamp out exactly such practices, making extensive use of psychic support despite condemning it elsewhere. They try to be basically "Space Berzerkers" in other fluff where basically they win through being more ferocious than their opponents with none of the subtlety/cunning mentioned in the HH books. They try to be "the good guys" in other fluff, caring about the average citizen, etc. They try to be the "pranksters" in some fluff like crashing thunderhawks for pranks and whatnot. In others they come off as half-werewolf psychopaths, etc.


They try to be too many things at once that contradict each other, and they try too hard in general, always having to be portrayed as not just Space Marines, no they can't be 'just' Space Marines, they have to be Space Marines but Fighter, Thinkier, Berzerkerier, Wolfier....in other words, they 'have' to be "Space Marines+1"


The way they are written all too often also reads like bad internet fanfiction. Firing artillery by *smell*? Then rushing forward to watch the explosions (thus exposing an artillery platform to direct enemy fire...exactly what it was designed *not* to do, or just being impossible given that the often the point of artillery is to fire at things that it's not possible to get at) because it's amusing? That's really the actions of genetically engineered disciplined and combat experienced super soldiers?



TL;DR try to be too many contradictory things, arrogant in an annoying "hipster" way, fluff written in the vein of bad fanfic. Space Vikings *can* be cool, just not like this.

It also doesn't help that their army list also plays like "SM's+1", and highly incentivizes army builds that play more like one would expect from Iron Warriors (lots of heavy weapons troops in mulitples of 3, lots of vehicles and tanks and small heavily armed troops units in armies with more long range AT guns than most IG armies) than one would expect of aggressive and melee oriented Space Vikings.

Just Dave wrote:
But the Space Wolves aren't alone in this; the Black Templars are the (probably) largest Space Marine Chapter and apparently have a close eye kept on them by the Inquisition, The Dark Angels follow their own agenda rather than the Imperium's/Inquisitions and provide little gene-seed for the creation of new chapters, the Blood Angels are notably divergent with flawed gene-seed and Chaos-like behaviours, and the list goes on...

Actually, this is right. Almost every SM chapter has had problems with the Inquisition at some stage, simply because the SM as a whole have a tendency to act as a law unto themselves.
Hell, even the quote-unquote Perfect Ultramarines do not like or trust the Inquisition, even if they are willing to work with them; incidents in the Ultramarines omnibus can back this up nicely.
Fact is that SM and the Inquisition end up staring each other down a hell of a lot more often than is sometimes acknowledged, and the incidents with the SW are just a fraction of this.

However, I do agree that Canis Wolfborn does have a rubbish title (and model).

Yeah, Dog Wolfborn (it's dog in Roman Latin [as opposed to scientific latin], not wolf, people) and Derpywolf suck. I hate that model with a passion.

Space Wolves are the most overpowered Codex Space Wolves have released for a decade!

But, can you definitively say that they are any more powerful than Grey Knights or Imperial Guard? Or that they cannot be beaten by other armies such as Necrons or Dark Eldar?
I agree, there are some internal balance issues within the Codex and it often doesn't encourage tactical gameplay; e.g. Long Fangs/Grey Hunters/ Rune Priests, but to say they are overpowered or unbeatable is incorrect IMHO, nor is it unique to the Space Wolves.

It's definitely got balance issues, as Dave says, but it's far from unbeatable. You still need to be able to play with some skill or your Pups are going home without their front teeth.
Calling them the "most broken codex in a decade" is a sign that someone hasn't played too many games against them.

My reason for disliking Space Wolves is the fact that every time I fight one I get the feeling that there's no point in playing Black Templars at the moment. The only units I have that are better than the Wolf counterpart are Vindicators (which are semi-competetive at best), Assault Terminators (again, semi-competetive for us Templars), Land Speeder Typhoons and Techmarines (third semi). They outshoot me and match me in assaults. It's just an exercise in futility.

The fluff is not a big problem for me though, although Canis Wolfborn needs to burn

In order of biggest reason to least
-fething Space Vikings. I hate Vikings so this is extremely unappealing to me. (I hate Space Mongolians also)
-The way they act in the stories, not how arrogant, the fact that they are damn near savages and morons who think they are smart (I havnt read Prospero Burns, Im sure this book does them justice though)
-How Leman Russ behaved when he met the Emperor. (All the other Primarchs [but Angron] immediately pledge loyalty or at least realized the Emp was their superior, Russ challenges him to a drinking and eating contest?)
-The over dose of Wolves. feth off about the wolves. The Ultramarines dont have Ultra-Captains or Ultra-Speeders
-Their hypocracy about Librarians and Rune Priest
-They butchered the Thousand Sons


Had it just been any one or two of these I wouldnt have mind them but all of them (probably 3-4) just causes me to roll my eyes and hate them. The only thing that I like about them is they respect anyone who fights with them and stood up to the Inquistion to defend the Imperial Guard.

and in an unrelated note, their models are fething horrible. I mean HORRIBLE

Galdos wrote:
-They butchered the Thousand Sons

Good.
I'm sorry, but this has been hashed over already in this thread and it's an unreasonable attitude.
It wasn't a case of the poor lil' Thousand Sons getting picked on and beaten up by those mean horrible Spess Wolves, you know.
The Emperor, as stated above by Dave, had repeatedly made his views on the overuse of Psykers clear, and given that Horus was a master manipulator (who also knew how to twist the Big E's words), any legion that was sent to bring the Sons to task would have been manipulated into doing the same.
Hell, what did you think would happen to the Sons once they'd been brought to Terra? A quick telling-off and "Don't do it again, you naughty boys?"
The Emperor thought Magnus had become tainted by Chaos, and according to the rulings at the Council of Nikea, Magnus' life was probably forfeit anyway.

I think Dave probably gave the perfect answer to this thread...

My hate for the Space wolves mostly stems from personal experience with them
See me and my friends used to have a functioning group I played as vanilla Marines, we had a Chaos, Ork, and Tau player. Then one our friends deiced to play Space Wolves and I all went down the crapper. His army pretty much steamrolled through all of our with is overpowered bs, Group dynamic was destroyed, now instead of getting and painting whatever we wanted, we've all turned super competitive just so we can keep up with the Space Wolves BS.
Their fluff is also dumb. Their to over the top in there wolfieness. Their not Space Vikings their space Furries. They're also Super Special Snowflakes at everything. Seriously have they ever lost a battle in the fluff?
Did I mention how stupid a lot of their models look? Seriously the Space Wolves

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Galdos wrote:
-They butchered the Thousand Sons

Good.
I'm sorry, but this has been hashed over already in this thread and it's an unreasonable attitude.
It wasn't a case of the poor lil' Thousand Sons getting picked on and beaten up by those mean horrible Spess Wolves, you know.
The Emperor, as stated above by Dave, had repeatedly made his views on the overuse of Psykers clear, and given that Horus was a master manipulator (who also knew how to twist the Big E's words), any legion that was sent to bring the Sons to task would have been manipulated into doing the same.
Hell, what did you think would happen to the Sons once they'd been brought to Terra? A quick telling-off and "Don't do it again, you naughty boys?"
The Emperor thought Magnus had become tainted by Chaos, and according to the rulings at the Council of Nikea, Magnus' life was probably forfeit anyway.

A couple things.

The Space Wolves weren't supposed to destroy the Thousand Sons, the Collected Visions book makes it clear they were to bring Magnus back alive to power the Golden Throne so the Emperor could help lead the defense and repair the Imperial Webway being built beneath the palace which was damaged by Magnus's psychic signal.

Second, while the Emperor banned the practice of using Librarians and psychic powers amongst the Astartes, the Wolves also continued to use theirs, under the willfully delusional concept that their Rune Priests aren't psykers, but merely "tapping into Fenris", though to everyone else it was obvious what they were.

I swear i read a version where it was sorcery that was banned whilst psykery merely became another weapon in their arsenal...
I liked that... that was good... it made sense...

Vaktathi wrote:A couple things.

The Space Wolves weren't supposed to destroy the Thousand Sons, the Collected Visions book makes it clear they were to bring Magnus back alive to power the Golden Throne so the Emperor could help lead the defense and repair the Imperial Webway being built beneath the palace which was damaged by Magnus's psychic signal.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info. At the same time, the Emperor's wording at Nikea can be, well, ambiguous. Come to think of it, not unlike the man himself.

EDIT: Interestingly, I looked this up, and it seems that actually the Emperor changed his mind about placing Magnus on the Throne after his intrusion into the Imperial Palace, so it still seems he was to be brought there for punishment.
And yeah, the SW weren't supposed to destroy the Sons, but when you have the Warmaster telling you that's the Emperor's orders, then you don't question it - after all, you have no idea that he's a traitor at this stage.

Second, while the Emperor banned the practice of using Librarians and psychic powers amongst the Astartes, the Wolves also continued to use theirs, under the willfully delusional concept that their Rune Priests aren't psykers, but merely "tapping into Fenris", though to everyone else it was obvious what they were.

Indeed, the SW were being delusional - or ignorant - here, and it is impossible to argue otherwise.
However, the issue still stands that the SW are being blamed for actions in which the blame rightly rests with the manipulator, not the manipulated.

In some ways yes I agree the blame rests with the manipulator instead of the manipulated, but at the same time, at least in Prospero Burns, they are presented in such a way that they would supposedly be "too smart for that" without irony, and it didn't take too much in the way of convincing to get them to go overboard.

The attitude presented as a result of that incident, rather than the incident itself, is the biggest turn off to the wolves there.

I do share the gripe with the Wolves continuing to use Sorcery, but at the same time I think even that can make sense, as, as Purple' said, it's a weapon and the Space Wolves use all available weapons. Then there's the question of whether the Emperor was banning all psychic powers or only unsanctioned psychic powers? He still created the Grey Knights after all, he may have sanctioned Space Wolves to use psykers for this...
Maybe the Emperor was doing it to try and save Magnus, who ultimately damned himself anyway?
Furthermore, did the Space Wolves really use psychic powers that much after Nikaea?

I'm not trying to defend it as I dislike this part of their background also, and I don't want to discuss this part any further as it's largely speculation, but even the continued use of psychic powers has a lot of variables and possible justifications and may be expanded upon later in the series.

The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it comes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the Watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, loyal to their allies, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction backed by an unwavering force of will.

Chimaera wrote:The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it coes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction.

I do like that myself...

I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

timetowaste85 wrote:I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

I agree with your comments on Russ' character flaws but your point makes it look like Magnus doesn't have any...
IMO he has the exact same character flaws.
Though i disagree with the idea that Russ enjoyed it...
He may not have liked his Brother or his ideas or sorcery but he didn't seem to show any enjoyment of Magnus' demise or that of his legion...

Just Dave wrote:In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

Just Dave wrote:I do share the gripe with the Wolves continuing to use Sorcery, but at the same time I think even that can make sense, as, as Purple' said, it's a weapon and the Space Wolves use all available weapons. Then there's the question of whether the Emperor was banning all psychic powers or only unsanctioned psychic powers?

IIRC (don't have any books in front of me right now) he banned Librarian departments and decreed that psykers currently amongst the Legions return to their battle companies and no longer make use of psychic powers.

He still created the Grey Knights after all, he may have sanctioned Space Wolves to use psykers for this...

yes, but after Horus had been defeated and a conclusive need for the Inquisition and the Grey Knights established. Notice that loyalist Chapters have Librarian departments now too, so something obviously changed, just not in time to save the Thousand Sons, possibly as a result of realizing what they were really trying to do and avoid a repeat of the mistake of ordering the attack on them? Who knows.

Furthermore, did the Space Wolves really use psychic powers that much after Nikaea?

As far as we can tell there's no indication they modified their behavior at all in any way.

I'm not trying to defend it as I dislike this part of their background also, and I don't want to discuss this part any further as it's largely speculation, but even the continued use of psychic powers has a lot of variables and possible justifications and may be expanded upon later in the series.

It's possible, but going on what we've got so far it puts the Wolves in a poor light for many.

Chimaera wrote:The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it comes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the Watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, loyal to their allies, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction backed by an unwavering force of will.

That would be fine in most circumstances, but the awful cartoony writing (both in tone and acts, e.g. the targetting whirlwind rockets by smell...I get a visual of them reminiscent of the Professor Farnsworth and his smell-o-scope) coupled with the "we're marines but BETTER!" and hypocritical and/or contradictory nature of their acts often making them look very arrogant/hipster-y makes them unpalatable to many.

There's a lot of potential for a very cool faction there I feel, but they *really* botched the execution.

purplefood wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

I agree with your comments on Russ' character flaws but your point makes it look like Magnus doesn't have any...
IMO he has the exact same character flaws.
Though i disagree with the idea that Russ enjoyed it...
He may not have liked his Brother or his ideas or sorcery but he didn't seem to show any enjoyment of Magnus' demise or that of his legion...

Just Dave wrote:In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

I haven't read BotF yet, I'm basing it purely off of reading stuff on wiki's and A Thousand Sons (and for my lack of some knowledge on the lore, I apologize). And I felt that addressing Magnus admitting he screwed up means he recognized his own flaws and accepted his fate for them, but I could see that going either way as enough or not enough info. His sons at least seemed to enjoy what they were doing (look to Weirdmake's actions and attitudes) in ATSs, and ultimately the Wolves themselves are in question, not Russ. I still don't like him, but it's his sons and their attitudes I hate more.

They tend to be horrible Marry Sues ( or the male equivalent ) even amongst an entire faction of Marry Sues.
Oh, and i am not a big fan of their visual style.
Still, one would have to be seriously braindamaged to actualy hate an army of plastic men.