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Lanrak your assessment is still based upon one line in a report that encompasses many hundreds of lines of numbers. That doesn't seem like a very broad foundation to base such a sweeping prediction of doom on to me, but you appear to have an axe to grind with GW ergo spamming the same message in all GW threads. It's a little tiring to read the same thing over and over but by no means convincing.

The ironic thing is that your idea for GW slashing their prices (dropping the retail arm) would be the one that would see GW tank in a very short space of time. Without the shops their turnover would diminish overnight since the corner stone of their model (turnover of new players) would no longer exist for them on even a fraction of the volume.

Finally you also introduce the above inflation idea ignoring that manufacturing costs rise faster than base rates and taking an extrapolated price per unit rate from one year and applying that to 5 years down the line ignores the realities of the situation, like the differences in products and the way they are bundled and the prevailing economic conditions.

Lanrak wrote:HI notprop.
However , if you look at the over all picture from 2004-5 to now, the decline in sales is very evident.

Of course it is. Those years were middle of the LotR bubble.

Lanrak wrote:
When companies put up prices constanrly over the rate of inflation ,

Why should it follow inflation? CPI is only an average calculated from thousands of products and services whichs actual price changes range from negative to tens of %'s. Besides, CPI is pretty much a crock these days anyways, finetuned to produce low numbers to please politicians.

My other, unrelated hobby, has in recent years had price increases much much greater than GW has.

Hi guys.
I was simply pointing out that the current GW plc buisness plan that made perfect sense 20 years ago, is NOT working for them now and has not been for the last decade or so.

If GW plc did not get the LoTR licence they would have been in trouble a LOT sooner.

Before the LoTR bubble , 1999, GW plc had a turn over of 78 million.
Increasing this for infaltion this gives a turn over of 120m appx.
Wow you say , that is realy close to what it currently is , Lanrak you old grupmy old git,we are right!
But if you factor in the increases in retail prices over the rate of inflation for 13 years, oh dear me....GW plc have still lost over 40% of thier customer base...

GW plc painted themselves into a corner when they followed Kirbys ideas.
Instead of embracing the internet market in the late 1990s they called it a passing fad.And used thier B&M stores for isolationaist marketing.
But the internet has allowed more information to reach potential customers and GWs fortress wall has crumbled, and its moat looks a bit less daunting to cross.(Vets are escaping and newbs dont like the look of the tatty old castle any more. )

The GW plc corperate managment take the simplest path to short term profit ,even kirby had admitted they had become' fat and lazy with the easy sucess LoTR brought them'.

When I talked about the massive milstone the chain of B&M stores ARE.It was to point out the poor desision Kirby made in the late 1990s by hoping the internt was a passing fad.
And the fact the sales breakdown has dissapeard from the latest report , probably proove the retail arm of GW plc is not as necissary as GW plc corperate belive it to be.
(No other games company needs one!)

The ONLY way back for GW plc is to improve the percieved value for money of th 'GW hobby' (tm).
But that would mean listening to those staff in the GW studio.

You know those bunch of talented artists that drove GW to greatness and doubed its turn over every 3 years from 1989 to 1998....untill Kirby started calling the shots on game development. and minature releases.. .

'..we are investing heavily in plastic pruduction to lower the cost of entry to our fun and rewarding hobby...' GW studio staff .

'...the material a minature is made out of doesnt matter, white metal or plastic , the customer pays for what it represents on the table top....' corperate justification of the pricing of 'Goldswords',,,

I think the GW studio staff and stores staff are in general, very talented and passionate about what they do.
If it wasnt for the shortsighted and incompetant actions of the corperate managment at GW plc, every one would be alot better off.

Kirbys original focus on minature sales to recoup his money from the managmnet buy out, seems to have overwhelmed everything else with devastating reprocussions.

As reguards to over head costings , in GW plc own fiscal report the state gross margins at 76%.
So as manufacturing costs are part of this , along with wages, asset depreciation asset managment etc, EVERYTHING except retail and logistic costings.

The manufacturung cost can not be a massive factor.
My mate who works at GW Nottingham manufacturing plant, told me the material used in manufactureing Citadel Minatures cost less than 4% of the retail price.( And the packaging is far more expencive than the raw material for casting!),

The only thing eating into the gross margins at an ever increasing rate is GW plcs chain of B&M stores.
(Thats why they converted some stores to one man stores and moved some shops to lower foot fall areas.Which reduced the efficiency of the retail outlets even more!)

Ill stop there for the white knights and appologists to defend GW plc corperate.
(Lets face it those on saleries of over £150k and getting HUGE amounts in share bonuses need your suport dont they?)

I can see what you are getting at but at this point I don't think that there is enough evidence to back up what you are indicating. It also reads far too emotively to be taken too seriously (see the last paragraph - agree with me or be a white knight or apologist, classy!).

So Lanrak you seem to be picking out specific details to fit your idea of things. Sorry, its not convincing be who cares I'm just trying to discuss what's happening, er I meant white knighting!

There is some extra trimming (and perhaps some cranberry sauce) in terms of what Lanrak is saying sure, but the meat & veg of what he has pointed out I think is pretty much dead on.

I think it's possible to argue whether or not GW's policies have made good business sense, and even whether they have necessarily been a good thing for the customer, but the facts themselves concerning those policies will be familiar to anyone who has followed the company closely over the years.

Lanrak wrote:Hi guys.
I was simply pointing out that the current GW plc buisness plan that made perfect sense 20 years ago, is NOT working for them now and has not been for the last decade or so.

If GW plc did not get the LoTR licence they would have been in trouble a LOT sooner.

Before the LoTR bubble , 1999, GW plc had a turn over of 78 million.
Increasing this for infaltion this gives a turn over of 120m appx.
Wow you say , that is realy close to what it currently is , Lanrak you old grupmy old git,we are right!
But if you factor in the increases in retail prices over the rate of inflation for 13 years, oh dear me....GW plc have still lost over 40% of thier customer base...

GW plc painted themselves into a corner when they followed Kirbys ideas.
Instead of embracing the internet market in the late 1990s they called it a passing fad.And used thier B&M stores for isolationaist marketing.
But the internet has allowed more information to reach potential customers and GWs fortress wall has crumbled, and its moat looks a bit less daunting to cross.(Vets are escaping and newbs dont like the look of the tatty old castle any more. )

The GW plc corperate managment take the simplest path to short term profit ,even kirby had admitted they had become' fat and lazy with the easy sucess LoTR brought them'.

When I talked about the massive milstone the chain of B&M stores ARE.It was to point out the poor desision Kirby made in the late 1990s by hoping the internt was a passing fad.
And the fact the sales breakdown has dissapeard from the latest report , probably proove the retail arm of GW plc is not as necissary as GW plc corperate belive it to be.
(No other games company needs one!)

The ONLY way back for GW plc is to improve the percieved value for money of th 'GW hobby' (tm).
But that would mean listening to those staff in the GW studio.

You know those bunch of talented artists that drove GW to greatness and tripled its turn over every 3 years from 1989 to 1998....untill Kirby started calling the shots on game development. and minature releases.. .

'..we are investing heavily in plastic pruduction to lower the cost of entry to our fun and rewarding hobby...' GW studio staff .

'...the material a minature is made out of doesnt matter, white metal or plastic , the customer pays for what it represents on the table top....' corperate justification of the pricing of 'Goldswords',,,

I think the GW studio staff and stores staff are in general, very talented and passionate about what they do.
If it wasnt for the shortsighted and incompetant actions of the corperate managment at GW plc, every one would be alot better off.

Kirbys original focus on minature sales to recoup his money from the managmnet buy out, seems to have overwhelmed everything else with devastating reprocussions.

As reguards to over head costings , in GW plc own fiscal report the state gross margins at 76%.
So as manufacturing costs are part of this , along with wages, asset depreciation asset managment etc, EVERYTHING except retail and logistic costings.

The manufacturung cost can not be a massive factor.
My mate who works at GW Nottingham manufacturing plant, told me the material used in manufactureing Citadel Minatures cost less than 4% of the retail price.( And the packaging is far more expencive than the raw material for casting!),

The only thing eating into the gross margins at an ever increasing rate is GW plcs chain of B&M stores.
(Thats why they converted some stores to one man stores and moved some shops to lower foot fall areas.Which reduced the efficiency of the retail outlets even more!)

Ill stop there for the white knights and appologists to defend GW plc corperate.
(Lets face it those on saleries of over £150k and getting HUGE amounts in share bonuses need your suport dont they?)

Show us on the doll where Mr Kirby touched you.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I dont see kids playing GW very much. In fact Im pretty sure Im the youngest guy who plays at my FLGS, and im 22. I think the next youngest is 25. So where do people get 13-15? Is my store just an oddity and the rest overran by kids?

Well I'm 12, nearly 13 though, and the 'kids' at my store are quite annoying. especially on sundays in those damned begginner sessions... Although I might just think that because according to my friends im a gogh, or depressed, they'll use any excuse to make fun of me.

Dey meanz yer a Goff. Itza Com-Plee-Ment

It makes yer dead 'ard and big and grim

Goffs is da bestest Orkz

Hi folks.
Simply look at GW plcs turn over vs the rate of increase in GW plcs retail prices.For the last 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 years.

GW plc ARE loosing sales volume/customers at an ever increasing rate.

Why would anyone think GW plc are doing things right when they are clearly loosing customers.
And this is the topic we are discussing.GW plc are driving away customers with thier rediculous pricing .

The white knights simpy assume GW plc are justified with thier actions.And use circular logic and spout the self forfiling phrophicies GW plc use to justify thier inane buisness decisions.

To know why I hold Mr Tom Kirby in such low regard, read that ' little red book.'

notprop.
Note the .

What did I tell you about 'loosing'?

Neurgh... (it's my biggest spelling peeve)

Lanrak wrote:Hi folks.
Simply look at GW plcs turn over vs the rate of increase in GW plcs retail prices.For the last 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 years.

GW plc ARE loosing sales volume/customers at an ever increasing rate.

Why would anyone think GW plc are doing things right when they are clearly loosing customers.
And this is the topic we are discussing.GW plc are driving away customers with thier rediculous pricing .

The white knights simpy assume GW plc are justified with thier actions.And use circular logic and spout the self forfiling phrophicies GW plc use to justify thier inane buisness decisions.

To know why I hold Mr Tom Kirby in such low regard, read that ' little red book.'

notprop.
Note the .

Must you really keep telling us this ?
I dont realy care, i like the game and will keep playing it and buying minis for it.
Maybe go and take your personal crusade against mr Kirby to a GW and protest outside ?

Hi Rayvon.
Is the title of this thread 'Do you like playing 40k,/Are you happy paying current GW plcs prices?'
No it is not.

I keep pointing out the FACTS from GW plc OWN finacial reports, when people ask about the current buisness practice and if it having s detrimental effect on GW plc customer base.
As facts and figures from a offical fiscal reports seem to be a better place to find the truth than , anecdotal evidence.

If you dont care about the pricing and GW plc buisness policy , Why did you post in this thread?(As anything I or others say about it is totaly irrelevent to you.)

One person acceptance of a pricing structure , simply means they have not reached thier personal limit of pricing elasticity.(Fact.)

And as GW plc is increasing prices by larger amounts to make up for greater looses sales volumes.(Fact.)
Some may reach thier limits sooner than they expect.

Unles you are saying you will pay ANY price for GW plc products.Eg £100 for a box of 10 plastic Space Marines, may be perfectly reasonable to you.
(In which case you are totaly desrveing of GW plc current atitudes towards you , and its current buisness policies.)


And why would I expend time and effort in a futile protest outside GW plc?
I withdrew my finacial support for GW plc years ago in protest.(And that is the only protest GW plc corperate seem to understand.)

It really is a matter of basic arithmetic

Revenue = price X units sold.

If Revenue says flat and price goes up, the only thing that can happen is unit sales going down.

The answer to the question of this thread is a resounding yes. GW's prices have indeed become a barrier to more and more people and while some parents will buy their kids anything,

I think GW needs their retail stores now though. The need to keep churning people through with the demo sales process. People don't stick around when it comes to being a GW customer and they need the constant influx of first purchasers who buy a starter, paints, codex, battleforce, etc.,. The independent retailers may be more efficient at actually moving products, but I still think a large amount of their sales volume comes from their direct sales.

They've also been concentrating on reducing the cost of their direct sales. Switching to one employee retail locations, for example.

Kids are just going to buy stuff then drop it and go back to video gaming a week later.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Rayvon.
Is the title of this thread 'Do you like playing 40k,/Are you happy paying current GW plcs prices?'
No it is not.

Yeah but the title is misleading, if you read the OP.

To paraphase...

I used to have a serious Loveheart addiction. I then didn't touch then for thirty years. Have you seen the price of Lovehearts these days? How can kids today afford them?

It's a Swizzell.

When I was a kid and first encountered 40k it was the game that adults with money played. Now that I am an adult and can afford to play....not much has changed. The value of most national currencies has dropped over the last two decades so it doesn't surprise me that prices have gone up as a negative reciprocal.

@ Lanark

The corporation is going to do what the investment holders are going to dictate. People young and old are still going to play this game.

Every person posting on a site lives in a different part of the world. They report aspects of the hobby (in this case) from their view point.

And rational people will make assessments on what types of information is realistic or not.

I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride myself. Interesting read overall.

Looking at the recent UK Budget, I'm beginning to think GW is using UK government tax increases on cigarettes and alcohol as a template for their own price increases!

Im 15 and ive been in the hobby for 1 1/2 to 2 years. I have 3500 points of orks and 400 points and growing of space marines, a badger airbrush, lots of paints, a dremel, and many other accessories. But the thing is I work and my parents have bought nothing for me ( besides x-mas and b-day) I walk dogs and mow lawns and it works just fine for me. So not all kids in the hobby are reliant on their parents for cash.
-Drew

Good man, keep it up.

Drew14 wrote:Im 15 and ive been in the hobby for 1 1/2 to 2 years. I have 3500 points of orks and 400 points and growing of space marines, a badger airbrush, lots of paints, a dremel, and many other accessories. But the thing is I work and my parents have bought nothing for me ( besides x-mas and b-day) I walk dogs and mow lawns and it works just fine for me. So not all kids in the hobby are reliant on their parents for cash.
-Drew

I'm 17 and I'm not at all reliant on parents/family for hobby stuff. I do commissions to fund my addiction, which is ironic as I spend so much time painting other peoples stuff that I cannot ever find time to paint my own stuff!

_Tim?

If you think about it this actually may be the cheaper option for children. Youd be surprised how much things like summer camp or a sports activity cost and its cheaper to drop them off at the hobby store on weekends or after school and let them play games all day rather than pay weekly or monthly for someone to watch them (plus cost of uniforms, doctor visits, etc.

keisukekun wrote:If you think about it this actually may be the cheaper option for children. Youd be surprised how much things like summer camp or a sports activity cost and its cheaper to drop them off at the hobby store on weekends or after school and let them play games all day rather than pay weekly or monthly for someone to watch them (plus cost of uniforms, doctor visits, etc.

I dunno about that. I did a lot of mountain biking as a youngling and after the initial very high investment of the bike, it was only $20 for a new chain every few months. Maybe a set of tires or new shocks once a year. Sure was a lot cheaper than wargaming.

Having a mother with medical experience helped prevent doctor bills however.


Most other hobbies don't require constant reinvestment like 40k does.

I'm annoyed if they are marketing towards kids and teens. Warhammer 40k and WHFM should be a game for adults. All the people I know who are majorly into it are adults.

You're naive if you think they aren't and they are because it is their established target market.

But outside of their accounts and investor material where this is stated the biggest give away is the toy soldiers they sell with the games.