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Pacific wrote:

Lorizael wrote:

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

Yes, but you have to go an assumption that a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time. Generally, wargaming involves collecting, modelling and painting miniatures, and so it is only fair to compare GW to other companies that offer a similar service. Going by these terms, GW is by far the most expensive. Even compared to itself in the past, there is no cheap option to play the games any more in the same way there was even 10 years ago (in the form of specialist games/board games).

If you think they are all evenly priced, then you need to do some research on it mate. PP has been getting progressively more expensive, but is still cheaper than GW. I could name many games that are cheaper to play, but just off the top of my head: Flames of war, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian wars, Bushido, Warpath/KoW, Dust Tactics, Tomorrow's War, Stargrunt, any number of Historical games.
All of these offer miniatures of a comparable (if not better in some case) quality, at a cheaper price both individually and over the course of collecting an army.

And this is from a UK perspective, considering the OP is posting from Australia I can't understand why anyone at all (with the exception perhaps of shareholders, who don't realise that the future viability of the GW hobby is being damaged) would want to defend GW's pricing strategy there. To put it kindly, it is utterly bonkers!

Your logic makes sense to a point - that 'a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time'; I'd say that sentiment is more valid if we say that, a hobby is comparable to another if you can do both in similar 'time slots'. For me, for example, I work most of the day on my dissertation or essays and spend most evenings with my girlfriend. For me, 'me-time' is one or two hours between finishing my work for the day and visiting my girlfriend. This is time spent in my room. I can either spend that time on my PC, gaming, or working on my models. So, at least in my personal situation, there is an opportunity cost between modelling and gaming. So, can I not say with a straight face that I consider my new Ork army to be better value for my time than, say, Mass Effect 3?


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WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

Or you buy AoBR and flog off the minis on e-Bay, keeping the rulebook, templates and measuring stick. Get the codex on eBay (cheapest Codex I ever got was Codex: Chaos Space Marines for £7), use dice out of an old boardgame in your house (I looted about thirty from our boardgame cupboard ), use a cheap tape measure you got in a cracker (though you do have the aforementioned measuring sticks).

Either you're over-stating/over-dramatacising (word?) the cost or you're describing someone who isn't that savvy with finding a good deal

Atm this cost, assuming you make back about £40 for the stuff in AoBR, is about £30...


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I might add for the record that I only have the 40k armies I have because I am a spoiled brat from Surrey. Even at this age birthday money and Christmas presents probably paid for a good portion of my stuff..

Though, being at uni on a student loan means that if I work (I do the odd job that the uni offers) I can get nice lump sums for temporary stuff. £40 to work 9am-3pm showing people around the Campus, or £100 for being a Steward at a conference for two days. Those sums tend to go straight into my hobby.

The time/cost analogy very rarely stacks up. Yes, you can look at a set of minis and say 'that will take me x months to build, assemble and paint so therefore is much more value than a video game that will take 20 hours to complete' but we very rarely weigh up entertainment in this fashion.

If we did, no-one would go bungee jumping or go on a roller coaster because it only lasts a couple of minutes and we would all be doing 10,000 piece jigsaws or reading War & Peace instead because that's the highest time per pound ratio.

Looking at leisure time purely in terms of money/time is misleading.

Perhaps, but what can match that urge when you're twitching at work or wherever you are to just get back and work on that pet project? I'm young and I guess this is the only hobby I've ever had, but nothing beats that drive you can feel and the immense self-satisfaction from bashing something up

I suppose people will say you can get that from other wargaming companies' stuff... and yeah, I did get pretty hyped about my WW2 sets.

Motograter wrote:Unless a kid has rich parents not many get into GW. When I started almost 16 years ago now with my pocket money I could buy new every week. I had 3 forces on the go and I was only 11, 12 years old. Now im almost 30 and with full time job and I cant afford one force nevermind 2 or 3. I cant see how kids now a days manage with GW prices. So much so I dont see young gw players in my area. Its all skirmish games which kids can actually afford

This is sort of the target maket for GW IMHO, not so much the 10-14 year olds but their parents.

Personally my parents never gave me money for figures (Silly soldiers were not worth it in my Dads opinion), money for rugger boots was a differant matter. 20 years ago may have been a little differant to now though.

Importantly, what we get out of our hobby is crucial, IMO. We get time to be social and interact with others, which, from what I've observed, some folks that I've played with might not too much of otherwise. I've made a small circle of close friends through this hobby, and I'd say that they're worth the money I've dropped on Warhamz (which, to my horror, is higher than I'd thought).

Hobbies nowadays are expensive, let's be honest. A good DSLR can cost upwards of $800 USD, and that's just for the camera, never mind all the accessories that go along with it. Video games can get moderately expensive if one buys most of the newer stuff that comes out. I play airsoft; my gear cost about $100 USD (and that's cheap, unfortunately), my rifle another $300, and my sidearm about $150. BB's and gas run me about $40/month (I play two times a week, ish, and am fairly aggressive when I do). If you're a nut like me who buys a new rifle every two months, it gets even nastier. However, I've made more friends through airsoft, martial arts, and a few of my other hobbies, and shared in some great times with them all. The price's impact is lessened by that knowledge.

Does the general cost of hobbies justify a box of 5 toy soldiers being $50? Not really. But that price can be insignificant compared to some of the great times buying that box might bring you.

Henners91 wrote:
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WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

Or you buy AoBR and flog off the minis on e-Bay, keeping the rulebook, templates and measuring stick. Get the codex on eBay (cheapest Codex I ever got was Codex: Chaos Space Marines for £7), use dice out of an old boardgame in your house (I looted about thirty from our boardgame cupboard ), use a cheap tape measure you got in a cracker (though you do have the aforementioned measuring sticks).

Either you're over-stating/over-dramatacising (word?) the cost or you're describing someone who isn't that savvy with finding a good deal

Atm this cost, assuming you make back about £40 for the stuff in AoBR, is about £30...

How many young customers (target market 10-14) do you know with eBay accounts, bank accounts and paypal?

filbert wrote: The time/cost analogy very rarely stacks up. Yes, you can look at a set of minis and say 'that will take me x months to build, assemble and paint so therefore is much more value than a video game that will take 20 hours to complete' but we very rarely weigh up entertainment in this fashion.

If we did, no-one would go bungee jumping or go on a roller coaster because it only lasts a couple of minutes and we would all be doing 10,000 piece jigsaws or reading War & Peace instead because that's the highest time per pound ratio.

I agree with this. There are dramatically different types of entertainment and one doesn’t necessarily supersede the other (outside of vacuum comparisons).

In regards to videogames specifically (since this vacuum comparison appears often on dakka), completion time varies dramatically between different videogames. A “flavour of the month” shooter might take around 20 hours to complete whereas a decent RPG can takes months to complete. Most savvy gamers will check out reviews and take into account things like completion time and replayability prior to purchase.

In regards to cost comparisons, one expensive hobby doesn’t justify another. Total cost comparisons should also be taken with a grain of salt as very rarely will someone (especially a kid) would buy everything in one go.

They're not pricing away young fans because young fans don't know any different, and for the time GW wants them to stay customers (Initial purchase/1 birthday/1 Christmas) they probably won't notice a price increase, and certainly won't be around long enough to notice the next one.

I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

japheth wrote:I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

Go talk to a GW sales rep then come back to me on that theory.

Also I advise you to go re-read all the recent fluff that has come out on the codexes, the "really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail" has been conspicuously absent from it for the past few years, in fact it would have disappeared altogether if it weren't for the BL novels...

japheth wrote:I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

Lets see 5000$ x 5 guys = 25000
500$ x 100 kids = 50000

I'll take the 100 kids, then the 100 next year, then the 100 the year after. The kids are were the money is at, why would GW care if the last more then a month or 2 tops they all ready got there shere holder money. What more likely 1000s of guys dropping 1000+$ a year when they own 100s of models or 1000s of kids dropping 100+$ a year to get there first army..

To be fair, Japheth’s post is still somewhat relevant even if this was more the case several years ago.

PhantomViper is also correct in that the “gritty fluff” has been notably absent during the past few years. 5th edition has been notorious IMO for shifting the fluff and rules towards a younger market. The fluff in 5th edition has had a consistent “comic book” feel (usually with a SM hero triumphing against all the odds) and the rules for Space Marines have been consistently bloated and “over the top”.

I'm not sure it isn't because of the change in writers (younger themselves) rather than purely a shift in focus. GW has been aiming selling to young teens for quite some years, it's not really a new thing.

Nope they arnt pricing away young fans, because its not always the young ones that are paying.
Its often the parents, which is a cheaper alternative for finding something "safe" for their children to do.

You know, when parents say " children that plays instruments wont stray" ?

honestly im 19, im serious with my gf i plan on getting married eventually. Im building one more army and thats probably it for a long time due to the price. It now takes a small fortune for an army.

I haven't bought anything in over a year because they priced me out. Their other problems have only compounded my reasons for not buying from them directly.

If "Younger gamers" really were the only customers GW was interested in, why would they EVER release a new rules version, or a new Codex?

Think about it. If the "grand plan" was to only ever have people be customers for one year, they'd never see an edition change. GW could fire the entire design studio and we'd still be on 2nd edition 40k and 4th edition WFB.

GW is spendy.

It's not THAT spendy, considering that you have the models forever, and invest hours on hours in painting, modelling, converting and playing them (at least I do... i've played opposite unpainted marine legs armies blutacked onto unflocked bases before ).

My other non-wargaming/non RPG hobby is building combat robots. I get to fight them about once a year, and it's odds on all i'll have afterwards is the handset controller

The costs involved in that make building a GW army seem tiny. My next bot is on hold due to costs right now, but it will likely run me several thousand by the time it's done.


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Younger gamers can afford theis hobby, though it is wallet-squeezingly painful when you have little money (as i did at that age). They jus thave to play smaller games, and pick the armies up slower (or sweet-talk parents ;D )

... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

We had one kid decide to play tyranids in 4th ed, only to sell them because they were 'crap' - making back maybe 40% of what they cost him. He switched to marines, then eldar, then back to marines, and finally back to Tyranids (except now the army cost him twice what it did last time).

I have no pov as a child gamer with parentals paying for my stuff (I bought 95% of my stuff, with the other 5% being gifts from friends). I started small and worked up to my 10-12,000pts of Eldar and marines (each). I didn't go out and overnight come back with all of them in one go.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

The way I see it is like this:

I buy stuff for my hobby every month as a treat for myself (and because I'm kind of addicted to spending my wage -.-).
I earn the money and after paying my bills, my rent and buying mah foods, I always get something new for my armies. Or maybe I'll buy a DVD set or something else. Maybe a novel.
Regardless, the price of a treat for myself and something to do in my free time pretty much pays for itself.
Money is made for spending, right?

When I see parents in my local GW with their youngsters (10-12 years old roughly. Sometimes even a lot younger like 7-8) I just always assume they're buying it for their kids because it's not really a big deal for them.
I'd imagine that if they're working full-time and well paying jobs then they have the money to spend on making their kids happy and give them something to do. That must be pretty rewarding for them to see and get involved with.

I see a lot of mums in my local GW that stay and watch their youngsters games and help them paint and they all usually have a nice smile on their face. The hobby is stimulating and engaging.
At the end of the day, that pretty much negates the cost.

However, sometimes I feel like GW should push towards their older player-group.
I mean, we have vet nights and I guess we get those novels and what-not but, eh, I dunno. When I see a bunch of obnoxious kids roaming around the store bumping into gaming tables and paint-stations, jogging people as they paint... Ugh. Especially in the summer holidays. Good god, I avoid GW like the plague during holiday seasons. *Shudder*

Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

chromedog wrote:... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

We had one kid decide to play tyranids in 4th ed, only to sell them because they were 'crap' - making back maybe 40% of what they cost him. He switched to marines, then eldar, then back to marines, and finally back to Tyranids (except now the army cost him twice what it did last time).

I have no pov as a child gamer with parentals paying for my stuff (I bought 95% of my stuff, with the other 5% being gifts from friends). I started small and worked up to my 10-12,000pts of Eldar and marines (each). I didn't go out and overnight come back with all of them in one go.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

Fair enough

My kids are too small at this point to get to that trend.

I still have models from when i was 8, but i guess that puts me in the 'older than dirt' generation

chromedog wrote:... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Hyd wrote:You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Dont think he was really complaining.

Lorizael wrote:

jdamaso111 wrote:I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army.

I see this a lot and have had people say to me "you should start warmachine, it's cheaper, you need less models!"

Which is cool for many people, whatever you want or need for your hobby is good.
But actually it costs just as much money to get started (Battle Box = £70 + paints) and I end up with less physically for my cash.
Yes I need less models to play, but what if I like battle games rather than skirmish games? And it still doesn't detract from the fact that I am indeed getting less for my money.

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

"Expensive" is still objective though- I know people who limit themselves to £20 a month on GW, I know others who have no problem justifying £200 a week.

Rayvon wrote:

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

Agreed. The prices in Oz are a bit crazy. I don't know and wouldn't like to guess why. I'd have to know more about income & outgoings over there to really be able to see if it's actually much more expensive.

I have managed to get three jacks and two war casters for under 20 bucks via ebay and trades, used the paint and glue i have to do them all up. Just depends on how you go about getting your hands on the stuff IMHO. No matter how hard i looked for the minis i needed for warhammer i always ended up paying a decent amount in the long run regardless of how i procured them.

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

infinite_array wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

Thats what Im doing thats why i was curious.

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

Rayvon wrote:

Hyd wrote:You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Dont think he was really complaining.

You got that right.

It was an observation, not a complaint.

The 'current' generation of players (born in the 90s) here have shown me by their actions that they don't have the "stick-to-it-iveness" to keep at something longer than they've currently been alive for - but it's a rare teen that DOES have this kind of focus that isn't also OCD or has anykind of the ASD either. The guys I started gaming with are all still gamers. Mind you, we were all "growed-ups" when we started, so focus was probably a tad easier (the brain rewiring had all been finished by then).

Besides: The younger generation are ALWAYS to blame for the ills of today. Especially reality TV. That is a pox upon the world.

I'm 14 years old myself and only starting to collect 40k now, one of my best friends got me into it. Before i went to buy any, my perents made me borrow models to play with from the gaming club for almost half a year to make sure that it wasn't just a fays i was going threw.

And once i had stayed at it for long enough I had to look for a cheaper way of buying the models because i didn't have enough money and my perents wouldn't rase my allowance. I ended up going in dept anyway. Now i only go to GW to buy paint.

Two more years and you can get a job

You can buy a surprisingly large amount of models if you have no expenses and spend all of your money on 40k.