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LunaHound wrote:

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

So what actually happens ?
Sounds like another reason for me to seek out metal recasters, i quite often strip and repaint my models.

HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Lanrak wrote:Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

I'm not interested in playing at a GW store. But I buy my minis from GW stores for two reasons;
1. The convienience - the store is only a 10 minute walk away and I walk right by going to/from work.
2. Pieice of mind that I'm going to get the stuff I pay for. Too many parcels lost or damaged in the post. And if sent by courrier I have no chance of ever getting the parcel.

i once heard an intresting discussion where the target market was described as the parents of children rather than the actual children. Mainly due to more disposable income.

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

The sole reason I dont play in a GW store is because its full of spotty pests and teenagers, and the manager has a bizarre Science fiction nickname.

Id rather lock all my doors, draw the curtains and play with a pair of shoe's for terrain than navigate the place.

Another way to think about it: if parents get to drop their kids off at the gamestore they are getting FREE babysitting. After playing a couple of games a kid can be there for what - 6 hours? Some parents would gladly pay for the occassonal box of minis considering this equation. Plus they KNOW where their kids are at an age where kids COULD be getting into big trouble elsewhere.

Or what about the SAD DAD syndrome? Dad would do ANYTHING to be able to play games again. But he can't. Because he has to watch Little Jimmy. Well, lo and behold Jimmy is nine years old now and what do you know, he can hold a paintbrush and roll dice. Now Dad is thinking, "Hmmmm, I can play 40K again AND keep Jimmy out of trouble AND the wife won't even complain about all the money I am flushing because it is father-son bonding time (maybe wife gets to go hang out with her friends or whatever).

So how is it that young gamers can afford the hobby? Because parents pay, oh yes, the parents will pay.

I live in a welfare and food stamps neighborhood. The children here are festooned with electronics: cell phones, portable video game systems, ipods, etc. Costs of such things could easily pay for large armies of GW product.

It isn't children or even their parents who complain about the prices. Even poor parents waste money foolishly on their children.

Old folks have stability and planned disposable income.

The people that complain about the prices the most are those that are no longer being supported but are also struggling to support themselves.

DarknessEternal wrote:

The people that complain about the prices the most are those that are no longer being supported but are also struggling to support themselves.

Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

I'm guessing the people that complain the most, see how stupidly overpriced 40k is and would rather spend their money elsewhere (travel, savings, better hobbies).

Rayvon wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

So what actually happens ?
Sounds like another reason for me to seek out metal recasters, i quite often strip and repaint my models.

Scrub hard enough to remove paint and have pieces break.

Or not scrub hard enough and can barely remove paint.

Unless you invest in those sonic jewellery cleaners, you really wont be cleaning the finecast.

Very smart move GW ( not sarcastic either )

Ultrasonic machines are actually not too expensive and get a lot more use around the house than you might think.

Heres a decent one for $35.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Trent-Ultrasonic-Eyeglass-Dentures/dp/B000SOQ6KQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329622528&sr=8-1

LunaHound wrote:

Very smart move GW ( not sarcastic either )

I was thinking the same thing, maybe even one of the reasons they switched.

Rayvon:
The issue isn't the brushing off of paint; but rather Finecast seems to react to the common stripping solution in the form of Simple Green.

It seems to soften up the material, and causing it to not properly harden afterwards. In some cases--like my own, when I stripped paint off Konrad von Carstein--, it also causes a bizarre sloughing effect where the material will actually flake off when you remove the paint it is attached to.

Emerett wrote:Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

I'm guessing the people that complain the most, see how stupidly overpriced 40k is and would rather spend their money elsewhere (travel, savings, better hobbies).

Hyperbole much? My Krieg army, direct from FW, didn't cost $1500 for an 1850 point army.

Sure, I could spend my money on many things, but choose to spend it on GW. If I'm spending it on a "better hobby", than why am I bothering with 40k in the first place, or posting on an intrawebz forum?

Is 40k overpriced? Sure. Is sci-fi wargaming becoming overpriced in general? Sure. Can I afford it without batting an eye? Sure.

Kanluwen wrote:Rayvon:
The issue isn't the brushing off of paint; but rather Finecast seems to react to the common stripping solution in the form of Simple Green.

It seems to soften up the material, and causing it to not properly harden afterwards. In some cases--like my own, when I stripped paint off Konrad von Carstein--, it also causes a bizarre sloughing effect where the material will actually flake off when you remove the paint it is attached to.

So? either way GW made sure we wont be able to reuse the minis same way we can with metal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cruentus wrote:Is 40k overpriced? Sure. Is sci-fi wargaming becoming overpriced in general? Sure. Can I afford it without batting an eye? Sure.

Good for you >.>

infinite_array wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

It's not nice. I put Crow into a simple green bath and left him for a few weeks. I've done the same with FW and had no problems with it. Crows sword looked like it needed viagra, his shoulder guard rim broke off because of the scrubbing and while using GW chaos black primer it just wouldn't come off. The paint came off rather well but forget about the primer. The same thing happens sometimes with plastic models when you use different primers.

I have a SOB rhino that has been in Simple green for over a year because I got it second hand and the paint just wont come off, it might be enamal (sp?) but I just don't know. For metal SG works wonders, for plastic it depends on the primer and for FineCast well the jury is still out. But it doesn't look good.

Might this be a way for GW to stop the second hand market, if FC can't be stripped who is going to buy all of little timmys models off of ebay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

What does the truth hurt you or something? GW PLC is loosing money hand over fist compaired to the glory days 90's where they doubled the company size for three years straight. Is GW doubling profits now? Kinda makes you wonder.

I know I bash GW a lot. I am jaded and biased. I admit it. They screwed me over when I worked for them. I am sorry I take that kinda personally. But the amount of GW white knighting is amazing. When people give you hard facts from GW's own financial year end reports what else can you say. The only reasion they are still in business isn't because of their awesome product it's because they slashed their retail staff and factory costs. While the whole time saying they had 'excess' money to throw into the divident ( of which Mr Kirby owns 6%). You do know he's going to get a 'golden handshake' also. His last great achievement was coming to North America with the 'one man store idea' fethed everything up then went back home with a 'Mission Accomplished' banner flying over his head.

When 2+2=4 I personally think you have to roll with it.

Would definitely be enamel for that Rhino, not much that can be done for it as anything that will strip it will likely destroy or damage the plastic. Though at this point it may just be a hollow paint shell. Either way it'll be interesting to see the effect being submerged for that long would have.

Kaldor wrote:To be fair, being in Australia skews the experience for us. We pay more than double the price GW products. Hell, it's actually cheaper to buy the Forgeworld models and have them shipped from the UK than it is to buy at stores in Australia.

That is both hilarious and moderately depressing.

Emerett wrote:
Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

No one is going to take you seriously when you just make things up.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:..............


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:................snip..........

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

What does the truth hurt you or something? GW PLC is loosing money hand over fist compaired to the glory days 90's where they doubled the company size for three years straight. Is GW doubling profits now? Kinda makes you wonder.

I know I bash GW a lot. I am jaded and biased. I admit it. They screwed me over when I worked for them. I am sorry I take that kinda personally. But the amount of GW white knighting is amazing. When people give you hard facts from GW's own financial year end reports what else can you say. The only reasion they are still in business isn't because of their awesome product it's because they slashed their retail staff and factory costs. While the whole time saying they had 'excess' money to throw into the divident ( of which Mr Kirby owns 6%). You do know he's going to get a 'golden handshake' also. His last great achievement was coming to North America with the 'one man store idea' fethed everything up then went back home with a 'Mission Accomplished' banner flying over his head.

When 2+2=4 I personally think you have to roll with it.

Okaaaaaaay? More of friendly dig at the similarity of Lanrak's posts these days but nice to see you took it seriously for him. [hint]the smiley gave away the intent[/hint]

However since we are looking at the truth here's a few for you;

1) GW's profits raised this year based upon new revenues from Licensing, shown on account them now introducing it en mass to the accounts rather spread out over term. I'm sure you read this in the report but just forgot it.

2) The reason GW are in business is because of their product. People like it and want to buy it in large quantities so they remain in business.

3) The one man store model (odd term because they all seem to have two in may experience) is a result of the lean times were are in, trimming the fat is pretty common in these circumstances. The reduced wage bill has allowed GW to return to a better position financially with less liabilities. This is pretty much rule one of protecting the business - employ as many as you need, not that you would like. At my fir we call this the Lite model.

4) The basis that GW is in trouble that Lanrak uses is the reduction in sales volume, this can be interpreted in a number of ways - the move away from blisters to boxsets complete with all options (no need for an extra blister for command/special weapons anymore), the reduction in small purchase items from store and onto direct only, etc. The fact is the truth is probably a little of all of them. There is enough information in the report that you shouldn't base a whole hypothesis (not truth btw) on one line, statistics after-all can be used to prove anything. The City seems to like what they see, GW stock is reasonable buoyant.

5) Mr Kirby does indeed own share in the company he works for. As the CEO it would be a poor sign if he didn't, the fact that despite being a wealthy man he continues to own this is a good sign, not a suspicious money grab conspiracy.

6) Dividends are a natural result of an investment. If I buy a stake in a company you fething right I want a return. (note I don't actually have GW stock).

7) Golden Handshake - probably. It's pretty common at that level, certainly not another conspiracy or something to rail against.

8) The implementation on expanding markets of a model that GW has built it's business on would seem like common sense to most. It remains to be seen whether GW expand in NA or not. I would actually suggest his biggest achievement would either taking the company public or the acquisition of the LotR licence.

9) 2+2 does indeed equal 4, though this is business not basic mathematics some would suggest 2+2=

My sons are 9 and 11. Both of them enjoy 40k and LotR. LotR was easy a few years back as there was always tons of cheap plastic around to keep them happy and the odd metal character model wasn't a huge stretch. Nowadays with boxes of 10 at £13.50 and individual characters in Finecrap and costing upwards of £8.50 for a single Goblin, they look at their pocket money or their birthday allowance and think "Nah, not this time, I'll put it to a new scooter, or a PS3 game". And I can't blame them.

40k has always been expensive though, (at least in the last 4 years they have been playing and collecting) and has always for them been a case of birthday presents or second hand from bring and buy at local shows (which often has - for them - the added bonus of coming already painted). The idea of them forking out £60 for a vehicle is just laughable. Although they both devour the codices and fluff and would devour White Dwarf back in the day when I still used to buy it 3 or 4 years ago.

WFB has always been out of the question. My eldest boy likes Dwarfs, but has priced up even a small 1,000 point army and decided it isn't worth it until he finds cheap plastic second hand stuff somewhere.

The eldest likes painting, but gets bored having to do too much. He plays games of 40k and LotR with me, and a couple of his school friends who also have some figures. The youngest hates painting and can't be bothered, nor will he play with anyone else but me as I have the patience to keep explaining the rules to him as he's a bit young to read them himself yet.

So do I think GW are doing a good job of marketing to kids? In one sense yes - the boys' "aquisition instincts" are highly motivated by the product, notwithstanding the reality is that they have mainly grey models and not lots of lovely painted stuff like in the pictures (although I have painted some of their stuff for them, and as I said the eldest does have a go himself when he feels in the mood). However, they are well priced out of the market. And will continue to be for the forseeable future as GW's applied rate of inflation to their products is likely to be much in excess of that I apply to their allowance!


And that's with a dad who likes to encourage them, shares their interest, and totally sees the benefits of it. Also, who paints up some of their models and gives them access to a large terrain collection and extra models fro my own collection for games whenever they want.

Lads with parents who are less accepting don't have a chance, unless they are seriously loaded - which does happen - one of my 11-year-old's mates gets an allowance of £25/week. Which is obscene in my opinion!

I have no idea how younger kids are getting into the hobby. Sure, there are a few kids out there with rich parents, but they are the exception. I remember back in the late 80's and
early 90's, I used to see GW adds in White Dwarf. I always thought the models were really cool looking, but there was no way I could afford them. And I actually had a part time job
all the way thru junior high and early high school. I stuck with D&D and video games instead.

The economy is in bad shape, inflation is rising rapidly, and wages are stagnant. Yet GW continues to raise prices on already overpriced merchandise.

My kids are going to play Warmachine, or something that doesn't gouge my pockets.
Hopefully GW locks their crap up and stops ripping their fans off with ludicrous pricing.

/lather rinse, repeat.

Good luck with that, where GW goes with pricing most seem to follow.

Sadly this is true.

There will be some cool new fad for kids to get hooked into by the time I have kids old enough for that.

Like speed.

If you want cheap minature wargaming, try 1/72 or 1/76 stuff... Sixty infantry for £6? Don't mind if I do...

Then you get companies like Armourfast or Pegasus Hobbies who'll do you two easy-fit tanks in a box for £8.

n0t_u wrote:Would definitely be enamel for that Rhino, not much that can be done for it as anything that will strip it will likely destroy or damage the plastic. Though at this point it may just be a hollow paint shell. Either way it'll be interesting to see the effect being submerged for that long would have.

Funny you should ask that, the plastic is just fine. No warping or anything, most of the enamel has finally started to peal off but getting into the cracks and detail like the Rhino door plate for the Sisters is going to be almost impossible.

As I have no use for rhino's anymore, I am thinking of it more like a science experiment =o]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:If you want cheap minature wargaming, try 1/72 or 1/76 stuff... Sixty infantry for £6? Don't mind if I do...

Then you get companies like Armourfast or Pegasus Hobbies who'll do you two easy-fit tanks in a box for £8.

Have to plug Elhiem mini's also. Mat does good work. S&S models also do great resin vehicles. =o]

HI notprop.
I understood your post as a friendly jibe about how I repeat that GW plc current buisness plan is one that promotes short term survivability , massive share bonus for Kirby , at the expence of its long term future.
I post this in all relevent threads where GW plc pricing structure is mentioned because it is relevent.

The official finacial report ALWAYS tries to put the company in the most positive light possible , as it is for the investors to read.

However , if you look at the over all picture from 2004-5 to now, the decline in sales is very evident.
IF GW plc were selling the SAME amount of product thier turn over would be appx £170M ajusting for inflation.(Irrespective of packaging type.)
And over £230M ajusting for the price rises over infation.

What was thier turn over this year , can you remind me ?

When companies put up prices constanrly over the rate of inflation , and thier turn over stays the same or falls, that company is looosing customers , or throwing money away.
And As GW plc is proud of its radical cost saving measures, IT MUST BE LOOSING CUSTOMERS.
And as the title of the thread asks if GW plc Pricing is driving a way young customers the answer is yes it is.

Also as thier gross margin is 76%.
That means the profit on every item is 76% ,excludng shiping and retail costs.

So it cost GW plc 24p out of every £1 of retail price to cover ALL overheads design, development, manufature , maintenence of assests etc.

In veiw of this GW plc with a turn over in exess of of 110M should be making a profit in exess of 70M allowing for logistic costings....

But GW plc are spending over 50M on thier own B&M stores...
If GW plc sold mainly through independant retailers ans the internet they couls HALF retail price and still make more gross profit.

Have you noticed how the sales break down of B&M stores-Independant retailers has suddenly vanished from the fiscal report?I wonder why?

Anyhow I agree many companies follow GW plc pricing, as it has allowed losts of companies room to flourish.(Many staffed by ex GW employees!)

The pricing on 28mm heroic mnatures may be similar to GW prices, but in most cases these minatures are for skirmish games so the over all cost is a fraction of what you have to pay to get a 'full game ' of 40k/WHFB.
The only company I know of making 28mm minatures for fictional setting 'battle games' of similar size to to GW , is Mantic .And they manufacture and price thier minatures for 'massed combat games'.(Eg appx 1/3 the cost of GW.)


In short.
The foundations are crubling the land lord is putting up the rent before the building eventualy collapses.However, notprop and the other remaining tennants still thinks the curtains look nice and the beds are quite comfortable....But more and more existing and would be new tennents are scared off by the high price of the rent and the funny creaking nioses from the basement.

Emerett wrote:Two more years and you can get a job

You can buy a surprisingly large amount of models if you have no expenses and spend all of your money on 40k.

Im 19. I live at home. Other the cell phone bill and food for school i have to convince myself to not buy for 40k.
My ego is getting a working negotiating between the id and superego.

You spelt lose as 'loose'.

Your argument is invalid.