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Henners91 wrote:Call me the devil's advocate but do we want young kids playing this hobby? I know some can be great but on the whole I tend to find the demographic irritating.

The feeling is mutual I'm sure. I would bet those kids wonder why a bunch of grumpy old creepers are hanging around in a store full of kids...

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

Any time we see a price topic from an Australian, we really shouldn't be suprised. AUS 40k Models are insanely over priced, and no one can really argue against that. GW Charges them an arm and a leg, and part of their soul to get things that are around half the price in the USA.

I dont see kids playing GW very much. In fact Im pretty sure Im the youngest guy who plays at my FLGS, and im 22. I think the next youngest is 25. So where do people get 13-15? Is my store just an oddity and the rest overran by kids?

The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

You do have a point there. Also, the minitures will out last the console.

Im the youngest person the wargames club I go to who actually wargames (the rest are into cards O.o ). Theres an age gap between me at 15 and the next youngest guy who wargames of about 10 years. I also wont touch GW with a bargepole thesedays. I uasully play Historical stuff these days, much cheaper

I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army. I dont see any younger people around my area wargaming much at all its mostly MTG and Yugioh.

Lorizael wrote:The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive. It hasn't always been that way, and indeed I think for a lot of the 25+ players they came into the wargaming hobby (and got bitten by the 'bug') either with one of the specialist games, or boxed games which were considerably cheaper. There isn't that option for kids coming into the game these days, and it's inevitable that it will cut down on the amount of new blood coming into wargaming.

And, someone mentioned Porsche, so I feel obliged to post this pic just to get it out of the way..

There used to be 6 under 16s at my club.

None of them still play because it got too expensive and they'd rather spend the money on cards, consoles or their other hobbies (one had to choose between music and gaming and gaming lost).

It's only the growed-ups who play GW stuff around here, and a lot of them have switched or are switching to Infinity and/or WM/H. Mainly because those products don't see the same markup here as the GW products do (but they also don't have expensive storefront liabilties either).

Lorizael wrote:The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

chromedog wrote:There used to be 6 under 16s at my club.

None of them still play because it got too expensive and they'd rather spend the money on cards, consoles or their other hobbies (one had to choose between music and gaming and gaming lost).

It's only the growed-ups who play GW stuff around here, and a lot of them have switched or are switching to Infinity and/or WM/H. Mainly because those products don't see the same markup here as the GW products do (but they also don't have expensive storefront liabilties either).

And the sad thing is, you cannot blame them eh, its not like they can just conjure the money up.

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

I started playing this game when I was 8 years old...

I mowed lawns, raked leaves, and shoveled snow to get enough money to buy more precious Imperial Guardsmen. I used to ride my bike five miles with my models underneath my arm to my local store. The thing was though, that the older players genuinely enjoyed me being there and playing with me. Maybe it was the fact that I knew more of the fluff and rules than most of them did, maybe it was that I had the attention to play a full days worth of games.

Anyways, it sometimes feels like I am supporting GW myself. Now adays, I work as a paid intern at a Fortune 500 company being paid 25 dollars an hour for 40 hour work weeks at age 18. Even with my university bills, student loans, car insurance, ect. I have spent almost 1000 dollars since christmas.

Am I one of those kids you are all talking about?

I started when I was 19.
It wasn't possible to start before that. 40k didn't exist. Fantasy did but only the D&D nerds played it (and it wasn't 'proper' wargaming). Not that 40k was when it came along, but the bunch of gamers I dragged along to the local club, who promptly joined up, got it accepted. Besides, 40k was more classic 70s SF back then.

All of my hobbying up until 2006 was self-financed (from my income). My parents paid for none of it. Not even gifts. I probably spent about $6-7k over all that time (1987-2011).

Most of my GW purchasing in the last 3 years has been through the 2nd hand market. Even cheaper than buying from OS - and stripping paint is easy.

My brother and I started when I was 8 and he was 11. It was still expensive even back then.

The saving grace 40k had back then was it was still a skirmish level game. A couple of squads, a tank and a couple of characters and you had a pretty solid force. Now it's barely enough to get you started.

While I still play 40k, I'd hate to see young people now try to build up a 1500 point army the same way I did then - saving up allowance and getting birthday/christmas gifts.

Kaldor wrote:

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

No I don't know anymore than you do, though I'm sure it feels that way.

My own cursory research indicates there is rough parity across the globe between average earnings and a few headline products. Certainly the closure of one of the avenues to take advantage of currency differences sucks but I understand that it is still possible to order from the Uk.

notprop wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

No I don't know anymore than you do, though I'm sure it feels that way.

Although in that sense I guess every other miniature manufacturer that sells in Aus is reverse-boning? Or.. something?!

Sounds kinky!

I know Battlefront did go through an excercise of ironing out the differences caused by currency issues 2-3 years ago, though I suspect being NZ based currency had been working against them to some extent.

jdamaso111 wrote:I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army.

I see this a lot and have had people say to me "you should start warmachine, it's cheaper, you need less models!"

Which is cool for many people, whatever you want or need for your hobby is good.
But actually it costs just as much money to get started (Battle Box = £70 + paints) and I end up with less physically for my cash.
Yes I need less models to play, but what if I like battle games rather than skirmish games? And it still doesn't detract from the fact that I am indeed getting less for my money.

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

"Expensive" is still objective though- I know people who limit themselves to £20 a month on GW, I know others who have no problem justifying £200 a week.

Rayvon wrote:

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

Agreed. The prices in Oz are a bit crazy. I don't know and wouldn't like to guess why. I'd have to know more about income & outgoings over there to really be able to see if it's actually much more expensive.

A BIT? A battleforce in Australia costs AUS $160. In the US or UK it is about AUS $90.

For income, the average salary is $55 - 75K (US $58-79 K or 37-50 000 pounds). There is talk over here of electricity prices rising by some huge amount (carbon tax et.al., but lets not go there). Same for water, probably petrol/gas too.

infinite_array wrote:

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

Ahh the good old 'head wall dent' I have one( a few) of those also, I wish Dakka had the orkmoticon for that I love that one on the Guild.

15mm is not 'that rare' compaired to 20mm. There is a lot more 20mm stuff around for historical's but for sci-fi 15mm seems the way to go. That is the one thing I do kinda respect about Battlefront they know people buy other stuff and they can't do anything about it except accept it and move on.

GW is still in kool aid land singing la la la with their fingers in their ears blabbing on about how great Finecast and liquid green stuff are.

There's heaps of 15mm SF on the market. There are several ranges of 6mm if you want to play mass battles.

Grimtuff wrote:

Emerett wrote:They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.
.

Irony being Louis Viutton is something of a Chav brand in the UK...

Ya, well that statement was from my pea sized american world view.

*goes and eats a bunch of bacon wrapped steak fries*

infinite_array wrote:

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

In honesty I have no idea how Articles work... so my bad

If I did, my few tutorials would be on there!

Lorizael wrote:

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

Yes, but you have to go an assumption that a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time. Generally, wargaming involves collecting, modelling and painting miniatures, and so it is only fair to compare GW to other companies that offer a similar service. Going by these terms, GW is by far the most expensive. Even compared to itself in the past, there is no cheap option to play the games any more in the same way there was even 10 years ago (in the form of specialist games/board games).

If you think they are all evenly priced, then you need to do some research on it mate. PP has been getting progressively more expensive, but is still cheaper than GW. I could name many games that are cheaper to play, but just off the top of my head: Flames of war, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian wars, Bushido, Warpath/KoW, Dust Tactics, Tomorrow's War, Stargrunt, any number of Historical games.
All of these offer miniatures of a comparable (if not better in some case) quality, at a cheaper price both individually and over the course of collecting an army.

And this is from a UK perspective, considering the OP is posting from Australia I can't understand why anyone at all (with the exception perhaps of shareholders, who don't realise that the future viability of the GW hobby is being damaged) would want to defend GW's pricing strategy there. To put it kindly, it is utterly bonkers!

Being thirteen years old and having been playing 40k for five years now i struggle to buy units so blisters are quite good but i usually sell games on line or at my game store and spend it at my FLGS were you get a card for a five percent discount i usually save for two or three months to get a unit. The price probably does ward off the youngling but private school kids turn up and annoy the f**k out of everyone ocaisionly

The way GW prices are rising in AUS these days I'm starting to look at Warhammer Kits as good stable long term investment option . Much safer than the current stock market.

I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

How i miss the good old days, spending the day in town and get the blister pack of my choice and a fast foood meal all with my five pounds pocket money.

Unless a kid has rich parents not many get into GW. When I started almost 16 years ago now with my pocket money I could buy new every week. I had 3 forces on the go and I was only 11, 12 years old. Now im almost 30 and with full time job and I cant afford one force nevermind 2 or 3. I cant see how kids now a days manage with GW prices. So much so I dont see young gw players in my area. Its all skirmish games which kids can actually afford