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Actually it is not a legal army, as there is only 1 Troop choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:But the FAQ was what clarified that it's voluntary. You have the choice.

I'm not sure why that affects my statements at all.

Actually I think what he is suggesting and seems perfectly logical, s you have permission to actively choose not to roll for the ability per the FAQ. If passive abilities are the only actions allowed in reserve, then you MUST roll while in reserve you don't have the active choice to not do so per the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:Actually it is not a legal army, as there is only 1 Troop choice.

What are you talking about you can have 6 Paladins Squads( or six individuals actually) in a Draigo Army and be legal. I never suggested there was only 1 squad of Paladins.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:And NecronLord3 - Draigo's ability is neither voluntary nor active, so there's no comparison between that and LotS.

But it's a special rule granted to the Army by including Draigo in that army. Just as LotS is an abiltiy granted to the Necron army by including Imotekh in the army. Same thing, if you cannot use abilities from reserve without specific permission the army would be illegal if the only Troops choices were Paladins.

This was answered pages ago. The faq may say he and his or hers or its or theirs as much as it likes, it only qualifies that a chronometron can effect the roll not how when or why you make the roll which is still as outlined in the codex as: 'If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the night fight rules apply automatically at the start of the game' and 'Furthermore, you can attempt to keep night fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn.'

There is no stipulation in either the codex or the faq that the 'Lord of the Storm' special rule gives 2 craps about the status or location of Imotekh, it only cares if Imotekh is in the army list at all and if he is currently attached to a harbinger of eternity with a chronometron. That certainly implies a great deal about how and where the ability should work, but for now it hasn't actually altered anything about the conditions for its use.

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

And where exactly is this said in the rules?

Tarrasq wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

And where exactly is this said in the rules?

It doesn't. It is an invention for those arguing on these forums to justify their arguments for or against a ruling. The idea being that all rules in 40k dictate only what you can do and if there is no rule telling you that you can do a thing that you can't do a thing.

However this argument generally breaks down considering their are plenty of examples dictating specifically things you can't do.

The argument generally holds no water. As this is not a permissive rules set, its a general versus specific rules set. There are general rules that dictate how things work, unless specifically being told to do otherwise.

LotS gives you a general rule on how LotS works. You are specifically told that it does not have to be rolled for and specifically that the Chronometron can affect a roll for LotS. You are also told that specifically this is allowed when the Cryptek is in a squad joined by Imotekh. Independent characters must be attached prior to deployment to a squad if they are being held in reserve with that squad all rolls for reserves at the same time. Therefore not only is the roll allowed to work in reserve it also can be rerolled using the Chronometron because you are specifically allowed to do so per the FAQ.

Just... Wow.

I'll just bring out my hammer then - there's no rule forbidding it.

You do normally need a rule telling you that you can do anything. Games don't really work otherwise.

That being said, I don't believe there's a blanket prohibition on use of abilities like this while in Reserve.

Randall - so rolling isnt an abiltiy? Wrong.

Necron - the ruleset is permissive AND general beats specific.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Randall - so rolling isnt an abiltiy? Wrong.

Necron - the ruleset is permissive AND general beats specific.

Wow, so you are just wrong now.

Rolling is not an ability it is something the player does to determine if a unit is successful and doing something.

You've been proven time and time again that you are incorrect and it has been sighted repeatedly.


So now you want to argue if the General Rule for Deepstrike says that you roll to scatter but equipment like Teleport Homers says you do not roll to scatter, your argument is that you still roll to scatter and ignore the specific rule.

No, yet again you are wrong. 100% consistency.

Rolling to see if night fight continues is an ability, separate to the "night fight just occurs" ability.

"cited", not "sighted". You have repeatedly ignored the rules given in the FAQ, stated they arent RAW, and then decided that when it tells you that HE rolls it really doesnt mean HE rolls but "anyone" rolls it.

Your last comment is, quite frankly, nonsense. Dont put words in other peoples mouths. Permissve AND specific beats general is how this ruleset is constructed - you can deny it, but that doesnt really matter to reality.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, yet again you are wrong. 100% consistency.

Rolling to see if night fight continues is an ability, separate to the "night fight just occurs" ability.

"cited", not "sighted". You have repeatedly ignored the rules given in the FAQ, stated they arent RAW, and then decided that when it tells you that HE rolls it really doesnt mean HE rolls but "anyone" rolls it.

Your last comment is, quite frankly, nonsense. Dont put words in other peoples mouths. Permissve AND specific beats general is how this ruleset is constructed - you can deny it, but that doesnt really matter to reality.

You are given permission to roll to continue nightfight if nightfight is in effect. The FAQ does not take this away.

If your unit is pinned, do "you" roll for saves when they get shot? I suppose the unit can't perform an action, so rolling saves is not allowed?

Try supporting your statements and maybe they wouldn't be so easily countered.

Where is the permission for Imotekh, the OWNER of the roll, to continue rolling while in REserve?

Bear in mind that performing actions while in reserve, such as modifying reserve rolls (when optional) has always required explicit permission.

Your entire argument is nonsense, perhaps you should avoid the common logical fallacies (so far at least 2, in one post - congrats) and your posts would be worth reading.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Where is the permission for Imotekh, the OWNER of the roll, to continue rolling while in REserve?

Bear in mind that performing actions while in reserve, such as modifying reserve rolls (when optional) has always required explicit permission.

Your entire argument is nonsense, perhaps you should avoid the common logical fallacies (so far at least 2, in one post - congrats) and your posts would be worth reading.

You are given permission in LotS as it is an army special rule not an ability of any single model. And per the FAQ you can use the cryptek to reroll the LotS ability while being held in reserve with Imotekh, as he must be joined to the squad prior to the start of the first if you want him to lead it anyway. Permission multiple times per the codex and one FAQ entry is not denied by one FAQ entry that says he does not have to roll, and the entry is entirelynerrelevant as he isn't rolling in the first place.

Where is the permission to use it while in reserve?

Every time a model has been required to make a roll - and HE makes thr roll as defined in the FAQ, more than once - while in Reserve this has been specifically allowed.

You have permission to use it while on the board. You have no permission to use it whiule in Reserve. You have no permission to use it while he is dead.

You are still ignoring the FAQ that has CHANGED the rules by saying it is irrelevant - in which case you are not following the tenets of this forum, again.

nevermind

nosferatu1001 wrote:Where is the permission to use it while in reserve?

Every time a model has been required to make a roll - and HE makes thr roll as defined in the FAQ, more than once - while in Reserve this has been specifically allowed.

You have permission to use it while on the board. You have no permission to use it whiule in Reserve. You have no permission to use it while he is dead.

You are still ignoring the FAQ that has CHANGED the rules by saying it is irrelevant - in which case you are not following the tenets of this forum, again.

The FAQ changed nothing in regard to the specific ability of LotS. It gave permission to not have to use the ability and permission to use the Chronometron in conjunction with this ability. The codex says you can use the ability for your army, reserving units has nothing to do with army composition.

Your assumptions are not part of the tenents of YMDC. If you have a problem with me report it!

NecronLord3 wrote: The codex says you can use the ability for your army, reserving units has nothing to do with army composition.

Your assumptions are not part of the tenents of YMDC. If you have a problem with me report it!

Have you been following this whole discussion or are you just popping in. Here is why Nos (correctly) states you need permission to use the ability from reserve...

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve affect the game?
A: Models in Reserve have no effect on the game except when they have an ability that specifies it applies while the model is in Reserve (e.g. ‘not in play’) or while ‘alive’. In addition, any ability used before the start of the game (e.g. during deployment, etc) applies regardless of whether the model is currently on the table or not [clarification]. Ref: IG.31A.02, IG.31C.01, TYR.34B.01, TYR.51C.01, TYR.56G.01, TYR.59B.03

Too bad Imotekh does not get permission to do so.

Apart from saying HE ROLLS THE DICE it "changes nothing"

Oh wait, it did. Shucks, guess thats you STILL ignoring the FAQ rules.

calypso2ts wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote: The codex says you can use the ability for your army, reserving units has nothing to do with army composition.

Your assumptions are not part of the tenents of YMDC. If you have a problem with me report it!

Have you been following this whole discussion or are you just popping in. Here is why Nos (correctly) states you need permission to use the ability from reserve...

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve affect the game?
A: Models in Reserve have no effect on the game except when they have an ability that specifies it applies while the model is in Reserve (e.g. ‘not in play’) or while ‘alive’. In addition, any ability used before the start of the game (e.g. during deployment, etc) applies regardless of whether the model is currently on the table or not [clarification]. Ref: IG.31A.02, IG.31C.01, TYR.34B.01, TYR.51C.01, TYR.56G.01, TYR.59B.03

Too bad Imotekh does not get permission to do so.

Popping in? Look at this thread. You however are and should read the Tenets of YMDC "2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on."

And your point is moot, as the ability is not being rolled for by Imotekh, it's an army ability granted by Imotekhs inclusion. You make the roll per the codex. Until specifically addressed by the FAQ it is an army ability, not vaguely changed by a word in an FAQ.

If you wish to argue about the INAT FAQ's ruling anyway, you should read the whole document:

◊NEC.55F.05 – Q: Does ‘Lord of the Storm’ apply
even if Imotekh starts the game in reserve? If
Imotekh is killed, does Night Fighting immediately
end?
A: ‘Lord of the Storm’ does still apply when Imotekh starts
the game in reserve. If he is killed while the Night Fighting
rules are in effect, then these rules continue until the start
of the next game turn (unless the opposing army also
contains Imotekh) [clarification].

◊NEC.55F.04 – Q: If Imotekh is joined to a unit that
contains a Cryptek with a Chronometron, can the roll
to see if an enemy unit is hit by his lightning bolts be
re-rolled? What about the roll to determine the
number of lightning bolt hits a unit suffers?
A: Yes to both (although obviously not more than one roll
per Chronometron in the unit) [clarification].

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apart from saying HE ROLLS THE DICE it "changes nothing"

Oh wait, it did. Shucks, guess thats you STILL ignoring the FAQ rules.

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6 at the start of the turn. If the result is greater than the turn number, the storm continues and the Night Fighting rules remain in play. If not, the Night Fighting rules cease to be in effect and are not used for the rest of the battle."

Until errata alters the underlined portions of the rule for LotS, that is RAW. Until a direct question is refereed to using LotS in reserve, continuing to do so is RAW. Clarifying if you are able to choose not to make the roll does not alter the Codex text or the other FAQ entry which reiterates that it is an army wide ability.

edit: no i'm not going to get back into this.

Randall Turner wrote:edit: no i'm not going to get back into this.

LoL, I know I tried to stop too and I couldn't help myself!

calypso2ts wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote: The codex says you can use the ability for your army, reserving units has nothing to do with army composition.

Your assumptions are not part of the tenents of YMDC. If you have a problem with me report it!

Have you been following this whole discussion or are you just popping in. Here is why Nos (correctly) states you need permission to use the ability from reserve...

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve affect the game?
A: Models in Reserve have no effect on the game except when they have an ability that specifies it applies while the model is in Reserve (e.g. ‘not in play’) or while ‘alive’. In addition, any ability used before the start of the game (e.g. during deployment, etc) applies regardless of whether the model is currently on the table or not [clarification]. Ref: IG.31A.02, IG.31C.01, TYR.34B.01, TYR.51C.01, TYR.56G.01, TYR.59B.03

Too bad Imotekh does not get permission to do so.

I don't see how you conclude permission is not granted.

Even according to your quote the roll is allowed. The LoS rule states it goes into effect when 'Your army includes Imotekh'. This qualifies for the first sentence - 'not in play'. It also qualifies for the last sentence. 'Your army includes Imotekh' directly means it applies regardless of whether the model is currently on the table or not.

Necron Codex:
1) Your army included Imotekh so nightfight is in effect
2) if nightfight is in effect you may roll to continue it

From the FAQ:
1) you may reroll #2 if Imotekhs unit contains a chronometron

Nowhere is there any restriction added in RAW.

Necron - you still misunderstand Errata and FAQ, and seem to think that only Errata changes rules.

That is so incredibly wrong, as has been proven to you multiple times by now, that your argument will remain incorrect until you realise this fact.
The FAQ changed the rule such that HE makes the roll, and as such you are now required to prove he can specifically roll while in Reserve, or while dead.

Thats it. Nothing more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Necron - you still misunderstand Errata and FAQ, and seem to think that only Errata changes rules.

That is so incredibly wrong, as has been proven to you multiple times by now, that your argument will remain incorrect until you realise this fact.
The FAQ changed the rule such that HE makes the roll, and as such you are now required to prove he can specifically roll while in Reserve, or while dead.

Thats it. Nothing more.

You have continually stated the same thing but you lack any proof.

Though I have asserted that the FAQ implies it is Imotekhs roll, you have failed to provide any proof of this. Your arguments generally lack any proof of your statements at all.

You haven't even proved that nightfight begins when Imotekh is not on the board. Perhaps these are things we can agree on or not, but you have not proved anything.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
You have continually stated the same thing but you lack any proof.

What, apart from when the FAQ defines it as HIS roll? Or when it allows HIM to reroll it by having a Chrono in the unit? That proof you mean?

Nemesor Dave wrote:Though I have asserted that the FAQ implies it is Imotekhs roll, you have failed to provide any proof of this. Your arguments generally lack any proof of your statements at all.

As opposed to your arguments which make up rules, ignore rules, ignore words that you find inconvenient (distance, for example), and generally ignore the basic way the game rules operate? Those arguments that, despite being proven incorrect, you cling to against all sense or reason?

Nemesor Dave wrote:You haven't even proved that nightfight begins when Imotekh is not on the board. Perhaps these are things we can agree on or not, but you have not proved anything.

"proven"

It begins when he is off the board, however as HE rolls you have to have permission for HIM to roll to see if it continues when he is in reserve or dead. Every single time an active ability has operated from Reserves you have had explicit permission in the codex or via FAQ to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"proven"

It begins when he is off the board, however as HE rolls you have to have permission for HIM to roll to see if it continues when he is in reserve or dead. Every single time an active ability has operated from Reserves you have had explicit permission in the codex or via FAQ to do so.

Here is an example of proof:

Q: If an army contains Imotekh the Stormlord can a
Cryptek with a chronometron use it to re-roll the roll to
see if the Night Fighting special rule stays in effect? (p85)
A: Only if Imotekh is in the same unit as the Cryptek
with the chronometron.

You see it says "the roll" not "his roll". Therefore regarding RAW, this FAQ does not change anything. "You" may still roll as described in the Necron Codex which does not require anything except your army includes Imotekh and nightfight in effect.

Actually if you'll notice it says the Cryptek may use it to re-roll the roll. Wow, the cryptek is making the re-roll. Now who's re-roll is it?

Necron FAQ wrote:Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55) A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

No, THIS is proof. Apparently repeating it to you is required
Notice it says HE rolls the dice, and explicitly states Imotekh is the one rolling for night fight?

Shucks, you're still wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55) A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

No, THIS is proof. Apparently repeating it to you is required
Notice it says HE rolls the dice, and explicitly states Imotekh is the one rolling for night fight?

Shucks, you're still wrong.

I'll admit it's evidence, but it is hardly proof and your claim is definitely not RAW. You still don't have a single RAW sentence that says "Imotekhs roll". This is all you have. Everything else says "the roll" or "you may roll" and states conditions. This says nothing about the conditions for the roll.

Your jump of logic is that this somehow changes the conditions required for the roll. It doesn't. This only answers the question "is the roll optional?".

Why does it matter who the roll belongs to? The roll is made if Imotekh is in your army. That's what let's the roll be made if he's in reserve.

It is not a separate ability. It is one ability with the extremely specific note that it all works if Imotekh is in your army. Not if he's in play, alive, on the battlefield, or any other requirement.

Whether it is Imotekh's roll, the players roll, or an Oompa Loompa's roll, the roll can be made while Imotekh is off the table because LoS very specifically states that it may happen when Imotekh is included in your army.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55) A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

I'll admit it's evidence, but it is hardly proof and your claim is definitely not RAW. You still don't have a single RAW sentence that says "Imotekhs roll". This is all you have. Everything else says "the roll" or "you may roll" and states conditions. This says nothing about the conditions for the roll.

Your jump of logic is that this somehow changes the conditions required for the roll. It doesn't. This only answers the question "is the roll optional?".

Lol. I've bolded the bits which prove you wrong. Still ignoring written rules and claiming they arent RAW? You know what RAW stands for, yes? See the rule up there? See that written rule up there, saying that Imotekh rolls the dice? Thats RAW.

Fafnir - it makes a difference because every. single. time. you have been allowed to perform an action while in reserve, said action has had to be explicitly allowed. Logans High King, Autarch reserve manipulation. And so on. This shows an inate permission requirement, like the rest of the rules, which is NOT given in the LotS

Next you'll say Imotekh can roll, as required in the rule changing FAQ, when dead?