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I think thats a great argument for LotS not happening when Imotekh dies, Fafnir.

I personally think that first LotS Necron Faq answer was a bit of a joke. He can attempt to roll for it but he doesn't have to...since you're rolling for an army wide rule there hehe. That would also explain why the chronometron works in that situation. Imotekh just decided he'd roll this time so his cryptek buddy would give him another chance.

All jokes aside, trying to explain why rules are the way they are doesn't matter as far as RAW is concerned. All the faq says is that for this special rule a piece of wargear can modify this rule if certain conditions are met. It doesn't apply to any other special rule just this one. It's an exception for LotS nothing more.

The debate over roll ownership still doesn't matter. It changes nothing because he can still use it in reserve even if it said specifically Imotekh rolls the dice, use the model to physically touch the die to roll it for this rule.

I also want to admit that rigeld2 is right in reference to my use of the word implies in my previous post. Reading the chronometron rule does seem to imply Imotekh owns the roll. However as stated previously , and I want to stress this again, what the rules imply is not the rules as written.

Tarrasq wrote:The debate over roll ownership still doesn't matter. It changes nothing because he can still use it in reserve even if it said specifically Imotekh rolls the dice, use the model to physically touch the die to roll it for this rule.

Exactly. Ownership is irrelevant. We have a specific overriding a general. Stipulating ownership, logic goes like this:

A. [general] LotS written as "Army Effect" rule, generally may be used from reserve.
B. [specific] Chronometron affects Imotekh, hence LotS is "Personal Ability".
C. [general] "Personal Ability" generally may not be used from reserve.
D. [specific] LotS specifically allows ability's use on first turn, may be used from reserve.

We end up at, "may be used from reserve".

Because there's no specific enabler for post-death (heh, ded necrons) usage, there we're at "may not be used after death".

No you end up with an ability that forces night fighting in first turn if your army includes Imhotekh.

If you want to continue night fighting, then Imotekh must roll to do so. If he is not on the board, he cannot do the rolling.

Happyjew wrote:No you end up with an ability that forces night fighting in first turn if your army includes Imhotekh.

If you want to continue night fighting, then Imotekh must roll to do so. If he is not on the board, he cannot do the rolling.

And the codex doesn't specify he owns the roll. Its specifically says YOU.

NOW we descend into logical fail land.

Happyjew, does Imotekh own the LotS ability? (If you say yes...)

Does he employ the ability on turn one? (If you say yes...)

Can he be in reserve when he does so? (If you say yes...)

you're screwed. So the question is where you go off-track, and where you do so determines your logical fail point. I'm pretty sure you're going to end up back at Nosferatu's "two separate abilities" point, just want to make sure...

Edit: NecronLord3, don't argue ownership. It's (LotS) an ability. Imotekh either owns it or he doesn't. It's pretty clear the original intent was that he doesn't, but it's also pretty clear the person who answered the FAQ's wasn't the original rule writer - and for better or worse, he didn't adhere to the original rule's conventions.

And the FAQ changed it so the roll belongs to Imotekh, otherwise, you would not be able to use the chronometron to re-roll.

Happyjew wrote:And the FAQ changed it so the roll belongs to Imotekh, otherwise, you would not be able to use the chronometron to re-roll.

It changed nothing. The FAQ gave permission to use the Chronotron. Nothing more.

Let's see:

If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn.

This means if you include Imotekh, regardless of what happens from there on out, Night Fighting rules apply in Game Turn 1.

Furthermore you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6 at the start of the turn.

This tells us that at the time the codex was released, keeping the night fighting rule was an army-wide ability unlocked by including Imotekh.
When the FAQ was released, rolling to keep Night Fighting in effect, became the personal property of Imotekh. This means that if he is dead, or in Reserves (in other words, not in play), he cannot roll to keep Night Fighting in effect.

As it is I already know you're not ever going to agree with me, so I am done responding in this thread.

A really good time to bail on a thread is when you're about to get intellectually raked over the coals.

Happyjew wrote:When the FAQ was released, rolling to keep Night Fighting in effect, became the personal property of Imotekh.

When the FAQ was released, the LotS ability became the personal property of Imotekh. (Arguably, I'll stipulate it.)

Your wording here attempts to further decompose the LotS ability into the initial turn 1 effect, which you'd like to keep as an abstract army-wide ability, and the continuation roll, which you'd like to cherry-pick as a separate ability that's owned by Imotekh.

This is what's known as, "making gak up".

Unfortunately, as Tarrasq helpfully points out, the only BRB wording we have on the issue refers to "abilities" as a whole, ie...

Tarrasq wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and has an ability that occurs at the start of the turn can they use that ability on the turn they arrive?(p 94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

There's some more wording in different codex FAQ's which we can reproduce here if you'd like, but what it boils down to is there's no support for decomposing an ability into separate parts, some of which may or may not, considered individually, qualify for use from reserve.

tl;dr - You can't break up an ability into smaller abilities, it's an atomic whole.

No, the ability did not become his - the roll became his.

He can attempt to roll for it but he doesn't have to...since you're rolling for an army wide rule there hehe.

This is brilliant. This is the way to prove the FAQ does not contradict the Codex... Next game I play rock-paper-scissors with Imothek about who rolls for Night fighting.

I get whats the problem though and I am on your side Nos. Stupid answer though. But still official. There is nothing to argue about it.

I still have yet to see someone try to disprove my main arguement, that abilities that dont measure distance from that particular or involve line of sight from that model can be used from reserve. Which in this instance is all that matters. Who owns the roll makes no difference. The only rule that concerns abilities and reserves is in the BRB faq only concerns units coming in from reserve and only abilities that occur at the start if the turn.

Anyone have an official rule that my main argument violates? Otherwise rolls can be made and abilites can be used from reserve.

That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

Which LotS, and the FAQ does( also the INAT FAQ, for those using them.). You don't get to pick and choose which parts of LotS you a allowing to be used.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

Which LotS, and the FAQ does( also the INAT FAQ, for those using them.). You don't get to pick and choose which parts of LotS you a allowing to be used.

I'm sorry - with all the rules quotes floating around in this thread I must've missed the one that said Imotekh was allowed to roll while in reserve.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

Which LotS, and the FAQ does( also the INAT FAQ, for those using them.). You don't get to pick and choose which parts of LotS you a allowing to be used.

I'm sorry - with all the rules quotes floating around in this thread I must've missed the one that said Imotekh was allowed to roll while in reserve.

Imotekh doesn't roll, you do per the rules for LotS:

Furthermore you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6 at the start of the turn.

...
I was unaware of that. Man. I'll be sure to take the dice out of my opponents models hand next time.

Seeing as how you do all of the rolling (I've yet to see a WH40K model roll any dice), does that mean a Cryptek with a Chronometron has to be attached to you for it ti work?

rigeld2 wrote:...
I was unaware of that. Man. I'll be sure to take the dice out of my opponents models hand next time.

Your comment suggests that nothing has changed and that it was always Imoteks roll, which I would agree with.

Of course the roll was always his, as it is his special rule under the rules for Imotekh. The conditions for granting you the ability to roll for his special rule are clearly defined and don't require him to be on the board.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the ability did not become his - the roll became his.

You're just going to change your answers however you can to force Imotekh to deploy, aren't you?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, because the Necron FAQ made it HIS ability, by allowing a chronometron to reroll the roll to see if it continues

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because they have decided, about 3 places, that lord of storms IS an ability rolled for by Imotekh. Its NOT just the chrono ruling, as you know and dishonestly decided not to remember to put in your post, but repeatedly throughout the FAQ rolling to continue nightfight and the entire storm ability is linked to Imotekh

This, again, is called "making gak up". You don't have an argument with intellectual integrity, that'll happen. A rational argument is also internally consistent - a rationalizing argument, not so much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:That's not how 40k works. You need permission to use things while in reserve.

Which LotS, and the FAQ does( also the INAT FAQ, for those using them.). You don't get to pick and choose which parts of LotS you a allowing to be used.

I'm sorry - with all the rules quotes floating around in this thread I must've missed the one that said Imotekh was allowed to roll while in reserve.

Well, again, the INAT ruling says so. (Imotekh is allowed to roll while in reserve.) The rules just say he's allowed to use the ability in reserve, we're commuting that "allowance" to rolls that compromise part of that ability. (Which seems to me is the same thing the INAT dudes did.)

I think it's a bit inconsistent (there's that hobgoblin again) to dispute the one without arguing against the other, or do you just not care how some of the better 40k minds decided to interpret the ability?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:...
I was unaware of that. Man. I'll be sure to take the dice out of my opponents models hand next time.

Your comment suggests that nothing has changed and that it was always Imoteks roll, which I would agree with.

No, that's not what my comment was intending to mean. I was mocking the statement "Imotekh doesn't roll, you do per the rules for LotS: "
If you're rolling, it's not Imotekh's roll - and the FAQ clarifies that it *is* his roll. You're making it on his behalf of course - since models can't roll dice.

Of course the roll was always his, as it is his special rule under the rules for Imotekh.

I'm not sure I agree that it was always his roll, but that's irrelevant as the FAQ has clarified that it is.

The conditions for granting you the ability to roll for his special rule are clearly defined and don't require him to be on the board.

Please show what part of the rule grants permission to use an active, voluntary ability while off the board.

Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

Mannahnin wrote:Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

Which the codex specified works while the Autarch is in reserves.

Happyjew wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

Which the codex specified works while the Autarch is in reserves.

Which doesn't matter for Imotekh because LotS is an ability granted to the Army. If Draigo is held in reserve and the GK army consists of no other Troops than Paladins, is the army therefore illegal? It is an ability granted to the army by Draigo's Special rules, and does not specify it may used in reserve.

Mannahnin wrote:Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

a) Is that bonus an active, voluntary thing?
b) Does the rule state that it works while in Reserve?

But the FAQ was what clarified that it's voluntary. You have the choice.

Mannahnin wrote:But the FAQ was what clarified that it's voluntary. You have the choice.

I'm not sure why that affects my statements at all.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

Which the codex specified works while the Autarch is in reserves.

Which doesn't matter for Imotekh because LotS is an ability granted to the Army. If Draigo is held in reserve and the GK army consists of no other Troops than Paladins, is the army therefore illegal? It is an ability granted to the army by Draigo's Special rules, and does not specify it may used in reserve.

Are you talking about 'Grand Strategy' which is done BEFORE deployment? Even so, if you are playing a mission using the standard FOC, which requires 2 Troop choices, then yes, the army is illegal, regardless if Draigo is in reserves or not.

You asked about permission "to use an active, voluntary ability while off the board."

Anyway, I don't think a blanket prohibition exists on using abilities while off the board. Generally speaking you can't use abilities which involve measurement, at least, but I don't really see why one couldn't use something like the storm.

Mannahnin wrote:You asked about permission "to use an active, voluntary ability while off the board."

Anyway, I don't think a blanket prohibition exists on using abilities while off the board. Generally speaking you can't use abilities which involve measurement, at least, but I don't really see why one couldn't use something like the storm.

There doesn't need to be a blanket prohibition - you need permission.
And yes that's what I asked - what's your point? Would you mind stating which ability you're referring to (LotS or the Autarch Reserve bonus) with which posts? I'm slightly confused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Several other abilities in the game do, like the Autarch bonus to Reserve rolls.

Which the codex specified works while the Autarch is in reserves.

Which doesn't matter for Imotekh because LotS is an ability granted to the Army. If Draigo is held in reserve and the GK army consists of no other Troops than Paladins, is the army therefore illegal? It is an ability granted to the army by Draigo's Special rules, and does not specify it may used in reserve.

Are you talking about 'Grand Strategy' which is done BEFORE deployment? Even so, if you are playing a mission using the standard FOC, which requires 2 Troop choices, then yes, the army is illegal, regardless if Draigo is in reserves or not.

Draigo makes Paladins Troop choices, so it'd be a legal army.

And NecronLord3 - Draigo's ability is neither voluntary nor active, so there's no comparison between that and LotS.