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AegisGrimm wrote:

Due to one or two sets of rules that may be powerful all of FW is condemned? Apply that same logic to any GW Codex. There are usually one or two things in most Codices that range far and above everything else in terms of power, yet no one makes such a fuss about those.

My thoughts exactly.

Isnt that because back then FW units are created for Apocalypse sized battles and Apocalypse super units , while the normal 40k codex is balanced between other same sized battles?

IcedAnimals wrote:
Now if someone has specific reasons for disliking FW that is fine. My own gaming group allows FW with the exception of the drop pod that allows dreadnaughts to assault as we all feel it too powerful. Having something that comes in turn 1, is near immune to deepstrike mishaps, and can then assault before you have a chance to stop it and is quite powerful in melee is more power than people in my gaming group want to see on the table. Especially since its only weakness is "If it tries to assault it has a 16% chance of immobilizing itself." We have quite a few people who enjoy playing the softer shooty based armies and everyone including our marine players felt that such a unit would change our stores metagame too drastically and possibly push some players away. But even with that rule we have a blood angel player who really really loves dreadnaughts and so he will ask if he can use those drop pods. I have only seen one person turn him down and not play a casual game. The rest of us usually accept it so that we can find out weaknesses, get in more experience against it and possibly at a later date lift the ban on said unit once there is a majority agreement that we feel it isn't as game changing as once thought.

Uhh. You do know BA can't take that drop-pod, right? I mean, if you all agree to ignore that par tof it's rules, fine. But if he is taking it as Blood Angels, it's not allowed.

Actually many tournaments here in sweden allow a great number of IA models in their tournaments and I think it I can go so far as to say that 90-100% of all the major tournaments are fully ok with this list of IA models.

salix_fatuus wrote:Actually many tournaments here in sweden allow a great number of IA models in their tournaments and I think it I can go so far as to say that 90-100% of all the major tournaments are fully ok with this list of IA models.

Tournaments at my club have very specific forgeworld units they will allow. For example, heavy gun drones or caestus rams, but XV9s and contemptors are fine.

imrandomghgh wrote:

salix_fatuus wrote:Actually many tournaments here in sweden allow a great number of IA models in their tournaments and I think it I can go so far as to say that 90-100% of all the major tournaments are fully ok with this list of IA models.

Tournaments at my club have very specific forgeworld units they will allow. For example, heavy gun drones or caestus rams, but XV9s and contemptors are fine.

Heavy gun drones are on par with rams.


...

Really?

People actually consider using Heavy Gun Drones?
I just checked. It's 2012 and this is happening?

Savageconvoy wrote:People actually consider using Heavy Gun Drones?
I just checked. It's 2012 and this is happening?

On December the 21st 2012, the world as we know it shall come to an end.

And all because someone will say that Heavy Gun Drones are OP... and they'll mean it.

Never you mind the game-breaking qualities of a Eldar warwalker with jump-jets...........

AegisGrimm wrote:Never you mind the game-breaking qualities of a Eldar warwalker with jump-jets...........

whaaaaaaat why the heck would I pay extra for jump-jets when the guns I'm going to be using have wonderful range (Scatterlassers) and I loose the ability to outflank

TwilightWalker wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:
Now if someone has specific reasons for disliking FW that is fine. My own gaming group allows FW with the exception of the drop pod that allows dreadnaughts to assault as we all feel it too powerful. Having something that comes in turn 1, is near immune to deepstrike mishaps, and can then assault before you have a chance to stop it and is quite powerful in melee is more power than people in my gaming group want to see on the table. Especially since its only weakness is "If it tries to assault it has a 16% chance of immobilizing itself." We have quite a few people who enjoy playing the softer shooty based armies and everyone including our marine players felt that such a unit would change our stores metagame too drastically and possibly push some players away. But even with that rule we have a blood angel player who really really loves dreadnaughts and so he will ask if he can use those drop pods. I have only seen one person turn him down and not play a casual game. The rest of us usually accept it so that we can find out weaknesses, get in more experience against it and possibly at a later date lift the ban on said unit once there is a majority agreement that we feel it isn't as game changing as once thought.

Uhh. You do know BA can't take that drop-pod, right? I mean, if you all agree to ignore that par tof it's rules, fine. But if he is taking it as Blood Angels, it's not allowed.

A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex.

Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2. They have been able to take it for a very long time. The guy literally bought them for the very purpose of running a drop pod assault army based around them and his blood angels. So while it is true that in the new IA Apoc 2 it says blood angels can not field them no one has any particular beef with letting him use em if he asks. We all know how much it sucks to spend a few hundred dollars on something in this hobby to have some new iteration come out and suddenly say its not legal anymore.

Considering FW are now doing rules for units specifically for 40k now, I find it hard to understand how people could refuse to play against them. Due largely that GW owns FW, and if the rules are for 40k and not Apoc, then they are game legal and usable. The only exception I know of with this is Tourneys, which have house rules that can mean you can't use FW ruled units.

IcedAnimals wrote:

TwilightWalker wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:
Now if someone has specific reasons for disliking FW that is fine. My own gaming group allows FW with the exception of the drop pod that allows dreadnaughts to assault as we all feel it too powerful. Having something that comes in turn 1, is near immune to deepstrike mishaps, and can then assault before you have a chance to stop it and is quite powerful in melee is more power than people in my gaming group want to see on the table. Especially since its only weakness is "If it tries to assault it has a 16% chance of immobilizing itself." We have quite a few people who enjoy playing the softer shooty based armies and everyone including our marine players felt that such a unit would change our stores metagame too drastically and possibly push some players away. But even with that rule we have a blood angel player who really really loves dreadnaughts and so he will ask if he can use those drop pods. I have only seen one person turn him down and not play a casual game. The rest of us usually accept it so that we can find out weaknesses, get in more experience against it and possibly at a later date lift the ban on said unit once there is a majority agreement that we feel it isn't as game changing as once thought.

Uhh. You do know BA can't take that drop-pod, right? I mean, if you all agree to ignore that par tof it's rules, fine. But if he is taking it as Blood Angels, it's not allowed.

A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex.

Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2. They have been able to take it for a very long time. The guy literally bought them for the very purpose of running a drop pod assault army based around them and his blood angels. So while it is true that in the new IA Apoc 2 it says blood angels can not field them no one has any particular beef with letting him use em if he asks. We all know how much it sucks to spend a few hundred dollars on something in this hobby to have some new iteration come out and suddenly say its not legal anymore.

If he bought it for the looks it can still be used as a normal drop, if he bought it for the rules, I simply can't feel sorry for him, the don't let BA take them for reason I guess.

IcedAnimals wrote:

TwilightWalker wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:
Now if someone has specific reasons for disliking FW that is fine. My own gaming group allows FW with the exception of the drop pod that allows dreadnaughts to assault as we all feel it too powerful. Having something that comes in turn 1, is near immune to deepstrike mishaps, and can then assault before you have a chance to stop it and is quite powerful in melee is more power than people in my gaming group want to see on the table. Especially since its only weakness is "If it tries to assault it has a 16% chance of immobilizing itself." We have quite a few people who enjoy playing the softer shooty based armies and everyone including our marine players felt that such a unit would change our stores metagame too drastically and possibly push some players away. But even with that rule we have a blood angel player who really really loves dreadnaughts and so he will ask if he can use those drop pods. I have only seen one person turn him down and not play a casual game. The rest of us usually accept it so that we can find out weaknesses, get in more experience against it and possibly at a later date lift the ban on said unit once there is a majority agreement that we feel it isn't as game changing as once thought.

Uhh. You do know BA can't take that drop-pod, right? I mean, if you all agree to ignore that par tof it's rules, fine. But if he is taking it as Blood Angels, it's not allowed.

A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex.

Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2. They have been able to take it for a very long time. The guy literally bought them for the very purpose of running a drop pod assault army based around them and his blood angels. So while it is true that in the new IA Apoc 2 it says blood angels can not field them no one has any particular beef with letting him use em if he asks. We all know how much it sucks to spend a few hundred dollars on something in this hobby to have some new iteration come out and suddenly say its not legal anymore.

Well guess what, that works the same was as it does with original codex's too. Think some people don't have to change models because the rules suddenly 180'ed and made half their 400$ + armies useless because of a sudden change in style for their army?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

imrandomghgh wrote:

salix_fatuus wrote:Actually many tournaments here in sweden allow a great number of IA models in their tournaments and I think it I can go so far as to say that 90-100% of all the major tournaments are fully ok with this list of IA models.

Tournaments at my club have very specific forgeworld units they will allow. For example, heavy gun drones or caestus rams, but XV9s and contemptors are fine.

Heavy gun drones are on par with rams.


...

Really?

Never said they were, there's just a list at my FLGS and Heavy Gun Drones are on it

Avatar 720 wrote:

Savageconvoy wrote:People actually consider using Heavy Gun Drones?
I just checked. It's 2012 and this is happening?

On December the 21st 2012, the world as we know it shall come to an end.

And all because someone will say that Heavy Gun Drones are OP... and they'll mean it.

no.. the world will not end because of a Tau imbalance... Everyone should know by now that the orange person who's on tv too much is apparently bringing forth spawn on the 21st of December.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
no.. the world will not end because of a Tau imbalance... Everyone should know by now that the orange person who's on tv too much is apparently bringing forth spawn on the 21st of December.

Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

That goes straight to my sig, thankyouverymuch

IcedAnimals wrote:Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2.

Should I do the same with my Necron Pariahs when I next use my Necrons?

Like it or not, rules get overridden. Yes, once upon a time Blood Angels could get a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Now they can’t, so quoting an old outdated book doesn’t help the argument that they can.

I just see it as a sort of manners issue. I've never played against forgeworld units, but i'd be more then a bit annoyed if i got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units i'd never seen or heard of and telling me all these weird rules for them. If they ask "Hey, do you mind if i use some forgeworld stuff?" then i'll have a look at the book (They'd deffinately have to have a real, tangible book, not a print-out) and see if it was alright to play against. Unless, of course, i just wanted to play a normal old game of 40k. Then i'd just tell him i'd rather not, and if he started getting angry or pushy, and just kept arguing with me about why i should let him, i'd make note to not play with this person as often, or at all. It's just a manners thing i guess.

loota boy wrote:I just see it as a sort of manners issue. I've never played against forgeworld units, but i'd be more then a bit annoyed if i got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units i'd never seen or heard of and telling me all these weird rules for them. If they ask "Hey, do you mind if i use some forgeworld stuff?" then i'll have a look at the book (They'd deffinately have to have a real, tangible book, not a print-out) and see if it was alright to play against. Unless, of course, i just wanted to play a normal old game of 40k. Then i'd just tell him i'd rather not, and if he started getting angry or pushy, and just kept arguing with me about why i should let him, i'd make note to not play with this person as often, or at all. It's just a manners thing i guess.

I agree with this completely! I use a various amount of non-GW bits, 'counts as' units and Forge World in my 40k armies, yet I have never had a single player refuse to play me or complain for that matter. I think the reason for this is that I try to be as conscientious and polite as possible. I will ask the guy I'm playing usually a week before if he is OK with playing it. Although I think it does help I have a reputation for always using painted and extensively converted armies (or it could be something to do with my poor win record?!), at a club dominated by marine forces part-painted as half a dozen marine different chapters and unpainted GK armies I usually have my games booked 2 or 3 weeks in advance.

Again though I probably wouldn't use stuff like the Lucius drop pod. IIRC the rules for that came out just after the plastic GW drop pod, I'm guessing FW were sitting on a load of kits that they had to sell..

loota boy wrote:I just see it as a sort of manners issue. I've never played against forgeworld units, but i'd be more then a bit annoyed if i got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units i'd never seen or heard of and telling me all these weird rules for them. If they ask "Hey, do you mind if i use some forgeworld stuff?" then i'll have a look at the book (They'd deffinately have to have a real, tangible book, not a print-out) and see if it was alright to play against. Unless, of course, i just wanted to play a normal old game of 40k. Then i'd just tell him i'd rather not, and if he started getting angry or pushy, and just kept arguing with me about why i should let him, i'd make note to not play with this person as often, or at all. It's just a manners thing i guess.

I've never played or even seen a Dark Eldar army in real life, but I'd be more than happy if I got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units I'd never seen or played against, and seeing all these weird rules for them.

If I am ever going to use an Imperial Armor unit in a game with my buddies, I will simply have the book on hand to point at the unit entry and show them what I'm going to be using. If anything, most of the new army codex rules are more complicated than anything a Forgeworld tank might bring to the table.

For instance I really like the FW Hornet for my new Eldar army. I can't imagine it has all that many rules that would change my opponent's mindset of "Shoot it to hell, without getting shot by it".

gmaleron wrote:Hello eveyone, this is a question that has sparked some serious debate (and a little drama) @ my local gaming store recently and wanted to take it up with the community of Dakka. As the title of the thread says why do people have a beef with taking Forgeworld lists/models in games? I really see no point to it, especially since Forgeworld is part of GW. The most common complaint that I have seen is that "oh Forgeworld lists are totally OP and cheessy" however when actually playtested and using them we have found this to be hugely exaggerated. People can make the argument that the lists are "unbalanced" but with the playing field of 40k in particular already unbalanced I find it to be an empty argument. Seriously what is the point of GW tempting us to buy these amazing models to only be told we cant use them in games, there is nothing in the books that says they are illegal to run in tournaments or friendly games and I think is taking away alot of the diversity of the game. This all started when the local store owner gave no real or good reason as to why you cant run forgeworld lists (we basically have come to the opinion that its because he doesnt know how to power game against them) and it has now forced us to possibly play a tournament @ another game store so we actually can use the books and minitures. So I want to know guys, what are your reasons for and against running/using Forgeworld books and lists in tournaments and friendly games?

I don't find any forge world lists I've wanted to use to be even remotely overpowered, especially when compared the the escalating power scale in 40k codex books these days. The only time I find forge world stuff to be unbalancing is when you start bringing super heavies into normal sized games of 40k without warning. Otherwise I find that FW has some gorgeous models, but they aren't instant game winners by any means at all. I have no personal issues running the lists in tourney or friendly games.

Of course the store owner is perfectly allowed to set whatever rules he wants for this in store leagues and tournements. All you can really do is say that you are going to go some place that allows you to use the lists and spend your money there instead. If he doesn't care then go off and play elsewhere with a happy conscience. Just because the models are cool and the lists are interesting doesn't mean people have to like them or want to use them. In friendly games anything goes as long as you opponent doesn't mind, but in tournies everyone being on the same page is important and limited forge world usage means that those folks who can't afford to invest in them are not left in the cold. Of course that works is based on the fallacy that having access to forge world models in some way is a major advantage, which I don't think it is, but YMMV.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:While the units themselves may not be ridiculously overpowered, they allow you to cover holes in your codex that are there for a reason. Chaos has crappy fast attack choices. But forgeworld has blight drones. Chaos doesn't have a lot of spammable str 8 firepower. Forgeworld has dual butcher cannon decimators.

Sorry but I disagree. Decimaters are not cheap in a list, and in an already small army like Chaos the loss of numbers will have a severe impact. They, like any other large units out there, become lascannon and rail gun bait and also don't last long. Blight drones are cool and fun and a neat concept, but are still just as fragile as any other fast attack choices and can be brought down by just about any unit on the table, including troops firing basic rapid fire weapons.

These items do not equate to an automatic win in any battle. In point of fact I have two blight drones in my nurgle chaos collection and have yet to play a single game where they survive past the 2nd turn of the game or have any appreciable affect on the game in anyway. I used plenty of different FW models in my armies: Blight drones, Plague Hulk, blood slaughterers, ogryn berserkers and plague ogryn to name the ones I use most. None of them have unbalanced anything that I have seen. They all cost more than they would if they were in a GW codex, given what they do, and they all have their own limits. Blight drones have light armor and break easily, plague hulk is lacking in decent long range capability, ogryn berserkers almost always end up killing themselves and have zero ranged capability and plague ogryns have zero ranged capability. The models are all really cool and I love seeing them on the table, but they have never won a game for me just because I have them.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jgehunter wrote:If he bought it for the looks it can still be used as a normal drop, if he bought it for the rules, I simply can't feel sorry for him, the don't let BA take them for reason I guess.

I do believe the point is he bought them based on the original rules in IA2, but now IAA 2nd edition makes them illegal for BA players. So he purchased them before they made the change to them so I can feel sorry for him. Though if nothing else this game is always including stuff like that that changes your army and makes it no longer work exactly the same way. As long as people locally don't mind playing friendly games with him using them anyway it isn't much of a big deal either way.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Like it or not, rules get overridden. Yes, once upon a time Blood Angels could get a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Now they can’t, so quoting an old outdated book doesn’t help the argument that they can.

No one is doing that. They are saying that when he bought his minis they were legal. Now they aren't, so people in the local store don't mind playing him when he asks nicely if they would mind if he did. What is so difficult to grasp here. No one is claiming it is still fine because it once was legal. They are claiming it is fine because *they don't mind" donig it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Skriker

So I just challenged a friend of mine who plays Psyfleman heavy GK army to play against my Tau at 2000 points.
I mostly want to try out the new Forgeworld Tetras that I got.

He actually said he didn't want to play against them cause they seem a bit cheesy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

loota boy wrote:I just see it as a sort of manners issue. I've never played against forgeworld units, but i'd be more then a bit annoyed if i got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units i'd never seen or heard of and telling me all these weird rules for them. If they ask "Hey, do you mind if i use some forgeworld stuff?" then i'll have a look at the book (They'd deffinately have to have a real, tangible book, not a print-out) and see if it was alright to play against. Unless, of course, i just wanted to play a normal old game of 40k. Then i'd just tell him i'd rather not, and if he started getting angry or pushy, and just kept arguing with me about why i should let him, i'd make note to not play with this person as often, or at all. It's just a manners thing i guess.

I've never played or even seen a Dark Eldar army in real life, but I'd be more than happy if I got ready to go and play a game with some guy and he started plopping down all sorts of models and units I'd never seen or played against, and seeing all these weird rules for them.

Neither have I, and i'm not even really familier with their rules. But i do know that if somone brought them to play, he would have to have his codex with him for me to play, unless he was a super-close gaming buddy that i really trusted. Of course, i'd still retain the right to decide i'd rather not play against him if i thought the units were cheesy or something (from my understanding, they aren't), and even if they weren't, I should still be able to say i'd just rather not right now. The only difference is i guess i wouldn't expect him to ask me if he minded before hand, like i'd like if they were using forgeworld. I guess it's a sort of double standard, but they aren't codex units, so i'd like to have a warning at first. Like I said, it's just a manners thing. If you want to use forgeworld, then it's just polite to ask first. Just my $0.02.

Savageconvoy wrote:So I just challenged a friend of mine who plays Psyfleman heavy GK army to play against my Tau at 2000 points.
I mostly want to try out the new Forgeworld Tetras that I got.

He actually said he didn't want to play against them cause they seem a bit cheesy.

I think Irony must be lost on the person you were going to play... Psyrifle GK armies are one of the cheesiest armies going ¬_¬

Savageconvoy wrote:So I just challenged a friend of mine who plays Psyfleman heavy GK army to play against my Tau at 2000 points.
I mostly want to try out the new Forgeworld Tetras that I got.

He actually said he didn't want to play against them cause they seem a bit cheesy.

I don't have any range issues but if somebody did that to me......you would find out in the news that somebody had been killed because of a war-game

H.B.M.C. wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2.

Should I do the same with my Necron Pariahs when I next use my Necrons?

Like it or not, rules get overridden. Yes, once upon a time Blood Angels could get a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Now they can’t, so quoting an old outdated book doesn’t help the argument that they can.

You seem to be misunderstanding me completely. I never said they can. I said they could. And that a player spent a lot of money on them when he could. And that our gaming group while we have an over all ban on the unit without opponents permission will often allow him to field said unit when he asks.

So if you want to ask your opponent if you can field Pariahs and they say yes then showing them the rule entry is probably a good idea.

I understand rules change and armies have to evolve. I play sisters and necrons. I just in the last few months had quite possibly the biggest revamp of armies GW has done since second into third edition. First losing half my codex with my sisters and then having my necron codex triple in size, options, and dramatically change in play style.

IcedAnimals wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2.

Should I do the same with my Necron Pariahs when I next use my Necrons?

Like it or not, rules get overridden. Yes, once upon a time Blood Angels could get a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Now they can’t, so quoting an old outdated book doesn’t help the argument that they can.

You seem to be misunderstanding me completely. I never said they can. I said they could. And that a player spent a lot of money on them when he could. And that our gaming group while we have an over all ban on the unit without opponents permission will often allow him to field said unit when he asks.

So if you want to ask your opponent if you can field Pariahs and they say yes then showing them the rule entry is probably a good idea.

In my gaming group we'd probably ask him to run it as a normal drop pod...

jgehunter wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:Quoted word for word from the imperium armour 2.

Should I do the same with my Necron Pariahs when I next use my Necrons?

Like it or not, rules get overridden. Yes, once upon a time Blood Angels could get a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Now they can’t, so quoting an old outdated book doesn’t help the argument that they can.

You seem to be misunderstanding me completely. I never said they can. I said they could. And that a player spent a lot of money on them when he could. And that our gaming group while we have an over all ban on the unit without opponents permission will often allow him to field said unit when he asks.

So if you want to ask your opponent if you can field Pariahs and they say yes then showing them the rule entry is probably a good idea.

In my gaming group we'd probably ask him to run it as a normal drop pod...

That is what he normally does so he doesn't have to ask anyone. He plays his blood angels because of his love of dreadnaughts, not for some love of a special drop pod.