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Some things are defined and some are not. Who knew that being removed from play and being removed as a casuality from play would be two different things?
Being on the table is not the same as being over the table. Skimmers count hull being over the table as hull being on the table, unless they are LOB skimmers, in which case, they do not. LOB skimmers only count their base for being on the table.

On the table is the same as "in the terrain of the table." There are rules for in terrain. I say we used those rules, as that is clearly defined, unlike the undefined quanity of "on the table" that you claim is so clear. It's just as clear as being removed from play or being removed as a casuality. In both cases your model is gone.

Please quote an actual rule backing your statement up. The opposition (vehicles use hull) have posted multiple rules to support their side, including (but not limited to):
1. All vehicles measure from hull.
2. Vehicles with a base use the base for a limited number of measurements (that does not include movement)
3. Vehicles on a large flying base, use the base for measurement with a few more things (that still does not include movement).

On or Over, it's a 3D game and their still in play. We can't consisder the edge of the board to only be at ground level.

hey, regarding "hull counts as on the table" - that "nose down" mounting theory was sorta flawed, but why not mount them in a half-roll? You know, banked hard right/left as if in a turn. Guns still firing forward, likely combat attitude - because this thread hasn't gone on long enough.

Randall Turner wrote:hey, regarding "hull counts as on the table" - that "nose down" mounting theory was sorta flawed, but why not mount them in a half-roll? You know, banked hard right/left as if in a turn. Guns still firing forward, likely combat attitude - because this thread hasn't gone on long enough.

It was mentioned - but unless it looked really cool would be MFA.

Plus, you'd only be able to shoot along the table edge you come in on, so not always that advantageous.

Those are two separate sentences. The first one says vehicles don't usually have bases. Full stop.

Ok then, i ask you what do we do for vehicles with a base. Which in my (admittedly slightly outnumbered here) opinion, is what the raven etc are.

The second one says vehicles measure to & from the hull. This is the rule.

100% correct for vehicles that dont have a base or that use the transparent one.

It does not say "The following rule is for vehicles that do not have bases."

I do believe that the first sentence in that section shows that the V+MD is in fact the exception to the rules given on pg3.

The rule for vehicle measurement is that you use the hull, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Unless the vehicle model itself usually has a base. The first sentence is the exception/statement.


I believe that the V+MD (on pg56) rules are the exception(and by extension the skimmer rules) here and that due to the fact that the model comes on a normal 40k base means that it uses the rules on pg3 for the purposes of measuring distances.
I also believe that this is held up by the fact if it uses that rule for measuring it also uses the rule about occupying the area of its base.
Which in my opinion stops all the disagrements over the on the table/off the table/ overhanging etc in one fell swoop as well. It seems to me to be the perfect catch all ruling/explanation for the above debate.
I honestly believe this is the way these particular types of vehicle should be used.

The large oval flying base is a skimmer base, as it only comes with models which have the Skimmer rule. Vehicles classified as Skimmers have a specific rule which tells us that their base is ignored.

This is in large part because skimmers are all substantially larger than the area of their base, and measuring to and from the hull makes measuring to and from them work consistently to how it works for all other vehicles.

-------

The main ruleboom FAQ states explicitly that the edge of the table is the edge of the world, for game purposes.

kryczek wrote:I believe that the V+MD (on pg56) rules are the exception(and by extension the skimmer rules) here and that due to the fact that the model comes on a normal 40k base means that it uses the rules on pg3 for the purposes of measuring distances.
I also believe that this is held up by the fact if it uses that rule for measuring it also uses the rule about occupying the area of its base.
Which in my opinion stops all the disagrements over the on the table/off the table/ overhanging etc in one fell swoop as well. It seems to me to be the perfect catch all ruling/explanation for the above debate.
I honestly believe this is the way these particular types of vehicle should be used.

The bit of plastic it's mounted on makes no difference, it's the rules that count. And the rules clearly show flying base, skimmer rules and measuring from the Hull. As pointed out the rules say vehicles don't usually have a base. If it does, it still doesn't use the base for measuring. If a Landraider came on a 25mm base you would still measure from the Hull.
It would stop argument about overhang if it wasn't wrong. Very wrong.
I would love to move my Valkyrie onto the board with a 6" move, but rules cleary say no.

It is an exception. For all vehicles. Even though it is frowned upon, here is the rule in full.

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

The emphasis is mine. Notice what it does not say. It does not say a vehicle without a base. It says a vehicle. All vehicles use this rule, unless explicitly otherwise stated. Is a Raven a vehicle? Yes. Does it have an explicitly stated exception? No. Therefore, it uses this rule. To say otherwise is illogical and obtuse.

Where is the page that says "ON" is equal to "Over"?
I don't care about shooting. Hell, I don't even care about movement.
Measure to and from the hull. (pg 56) I'm talking about where in the "world" it is. "world" refers to Table for those keeping score. (pg.13) The rules for movement have no bearing on this, as they only determine the distance a vehicle can move. (pg.57) Any vehicle can move up to it's maximum move, and how you measure that movement is always with the hull. (pg.56) Terrain affects movement. (pg.57) Once you've completed your move, where is your model. Is it in a legal position?
it's position is determined by the base (pg.3), unless the model is a vehicle, in which case it's determined by the hull. (pg.56) The last bit of that rule was FAQ'd to be different, where the location of LOB skimmers is concerned, one determines it's location using only the base. (BRBFAQ.pg.6)

Not sure what you're asking now. Is the end position of the model legal?
It's a combination of model and base. If the base is in terrain use he appropriate rules. Measure from the model and if you come in contact with the edge of the board it's destroyed. With a combination of rules you'll know if your end position is legal.
If you need to know where in the world your model is, then use the rule on page16 "Line of Sight".

The large oval flying base is a skimmer base, as it only comes with models which have the Skimmer rule.

what you mean like the trygon and tervigon and dreadknight. i know they aint vehicles but still. So with this statment that would mean we measure the dreadknight from its hull as it has a LOFB which only come with skimmers.

Vehicles classified as Skimmers have a specific rule which tells us that their base is ignored

Again wrong, it tells us that the transparent ones are ignored. Not normal ones.

It is an exception. For all vehicles.

Sorry and this is where your are wrong again. It is an exception but only for vehicles that do not normally use a base. Who follow the normal rules on pg3.

Even though it is frowned upon, here is the rule in full.

Sorry man but that aint the full rule, you missed the first sentence.

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

This only applys for models who do not usually have a base. Choosing to deliberatly ignore this first part of the rule is illogical and obtuse. your words not mine.

It does not say a vehicle without a base.

i believe that is whats implied in the first sentence. So it in fact does say that just not those exact words.

All vehicles use this rule, unless explicitly otherwise stated

I believe it is, in that same first sentence.

I would love to move my Valkyrie onto the board with a 6" move, but rules cleary say no.

You should man as that is the correct way to do it.

The bit of plastic it's mounted on makes no difference, it's the rules that count.

Sorry man but does make a big difference because it determines what rules it uses.

The vehicle and skimmer rules are the exceptions given for modles that do not have a normal base. These 2 do. So again using the vehicle and skimmer rules to back up the point is wrong i`m afraid.

Actually the LOFB is the oval base plus clear flight stand. And again (in normal games), only skimmers have them.

Where does it says use the base and Hull for determining where it is on the table? Everyone says I didn't provide page numbers, but no one provides the page number that says that for determining the models position is done by using the hull for LOB skimmers, as clarified by the BRBFAQ.pg6.

@Kryczek:
Neither the Dreadknight nor Tygon are vehicles, nor do their rules say they use a flying base. Also the rules highlight 'flying base' not transparent, a point you seem content to ignore.
There is nothing that indicates a Valkrie uses a normal base. Nothing. Even if it did we're told vehicles ignore bases, normal or otherwise.
At this point your entire case is based on ignoring rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

axeman1n wrote:Where does it says use the base and Hull for determining where it is on the table? Everyone says I didn't provide page numbers, but no one provides the page number that says that for determining the models position is done by using the hull for LOB skimmers, as clarified by the BRBFAQ.pg6.

Page71. You use measuring distances from the Hull and terrain checks from the base. What more are you after? Where is the model? Open your eyes and look, the game uses True Line of Sight (Page16). I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this point, that no model truely exists and it's all in our mind?

Hey axema1n, i personally believe that is covered by pg 3, measuring distances.

@grendel083,
I know they aint vehicles, its not about thier rules its about what the model comes with. You need to know that before you even look for the rules.
I dont chose to ignore them, these models rules are determined before you even get to the vehicles section. In my opinion that is done on pg3.
The skimmers rule is where the transparent `flying base` is mentioned but they dont use that or even the vehicle rules for this purpose.
Also as to the entries in the IG FAQ. If you take what they do in there and put them what im saying then that would mean you would use the base for a lot of things done in the movement phase.
Ie:deep striking, terrain effects, dis/embarking, One rule that covers for all things. Thats why i think this way is the correct way to play these types of vehicles.

It just seems neat to me i suppose.

Can you:
a). find anywhere in the rules that say a Valkyrie is on a standard base?
b). if so can you then show where in the rules it says that vehicles, if supplied on a standard base, should measure from them?
I've shown in the rules that a flying base is used, and that we're told to measure from the Hull. It says they don't normal have have a base. What it does not say is measure from the Hull only if there's no standard base. Even with a standard base, you still measure from the Hull.
It does seem neat, and also wrong. Twelve shots from a single lascannon sounds neat to me, but the rules don't support this either.

A Dark Eldar Raider is described as having a large flying base. Not a Transparent Flying Base. Does that mean you should measure from the base as well? Infact there are no vehicles described as having a Transparent Flying Base (only Small Flying Base, large flying base and Large Oval Flying Base). So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Also why does the rules say "...have transparent 'flying bases' under..." ?
It highlights flying base, but why does it not highlight the transparent part? Aparently the 'transparent' is the most important part. Could it be that actually 'flying base' is the most improtant?

kryczek wrote:

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

This only applys for models who do not usually have a base. Choosing to deliberatly ignore this first part of the rule is illogical and obtuse. your words not mine.

You know what types of models usually do not have a base? Vehicles. There is no vehicle type "Based vehicle" and "Vehicle without a base". There are Skimmers, Tanks, Fast... Etc. Vehicles are not divided into two categories of based and unbased. No where in the rules is this clarification made. To argue that the rules saying "As vehicle models usually do not have a base" makes such a clarification is simply wrong. Here, let me get a definition for you:

u·su·al   [yoo-zhoo-uhl, yoozh-wuhl]
adjective
1. habitual or customary

Does that say always? Does it say that is the only way in which it occurs? No? Then why are you implying such a distinction is made? If I say I usually drink coke and not pepsi, does that mean I never drink pepsi? If I say I usually walk to work, does that imply it is the only way I ever get to work? The rules say this: "Most vehicles don't have a base. So measure for all vehicles from the hull to avoid this problem." It is simple, straight-forward, and clear. This is the way you want to read them: "Most vehicles don't have a base. So the rules for vehicles without a base are to measure from the hull. For vehicles with a base, follow the normal rules." However, there is no such distinction made in the rules. The first sentence is not the rule. It is an explanation for why the rule is necessary. GW does this all the time. For example, in the C:CSM, under "Terminator Armour" it says "Terminator Armour is capable of withstanding almost any attack." Does this then mean that only the strongest attacks can hurt a model in Terminator Armour? No, it is just a piece of fluff. It has no effect on the rules. Similar to the first sentence here.

kryczek wrote:

It does not say a vehicle without a base.

i believe that is whats implied in the first sentence. So it in fact does say that just not those exact words.

If that is what is intended, then they must be shipping their editing out to third-graders. That is the worst possible way to make that clear. In fact, reading those sentences using the normal rules of English and logic, the exact opposite is implied. Notice it is under the heading "Vehicles & Measuring Distances". Then it says usually. Implying that yes, some vehicles might have bases. However, it then continues on to say vehicles follow this rule. No where does it say the rule only applies to baseless vehicles. To attempt to read such a meaning into the rules is being TFG. If I was playing a game, and someone tried this, and then used this argument, I would pack up, leave, and never play them again. Because they are clearly trying to manipulate the rules to gain an advantage. It's the same as building Rhinos that are 12" tall IMO.

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Sorry man i dont know how you got to that conclusion. Obviously the ones with the transparent flying base as it says in the skimmer rule do.

if so can you then show where in the rules it says that vehicles, if supplied on a standard base, should measure from them?

It doesnt say vehicles it says models. All models that come with a base use the rules on pg 3.

Also why does the rules say "...have transparent 'flying bases' under..." ?

Because thats a rule for a skimmer that uses the transparent flying base not a skimmer that has a large oval base.

GW:This kit contains one Stormraven Gunship, a Flying Stem and a Large Oval Base.

The model determines the rules that it uses.

The rules in the vehicle section determine how the models that (in this case) dont have bases (vehicles, rhino`s etc) and those that use the transparent flying bases(skimmers, falcons etc) work in game.
Now i do get that these 2 have both of these rules but because the model has a base it doesnt use them when it comes to measuring distances. As it usually comes with a base. As the first sentence on pg56 says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kaisshau,

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

I believe that if you had read the rules involved properly you would realise that what you said here is the height of nonsense. If you had read the full rule on pg56 the 2nd paragraph would`ve filled you in. Read up.

kryczek wrote:

So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Sorry man i dont know how you got to that conclusion. Obviously the ones with the transparent flying base as it says in the skimmer rule do.

The rules say "transparent 'flying base'". GW describes the base for a DE Raider on their website as a "large flying base." There is no "transparent" in the GW description. Thus, the rule does not apply to that vehicle. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat540001a&prodId=prod900156a
You argue that the rule should not apply to the Valkyre. The description for a Valkyre says "large oval base and an all-new clear-plastic flying base". http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1900035
Since clear and transparent are synonyms, this sentence can be read as the Valkyre including a base which is "transparent". Thus, under your argument, should it not be that the skimmer rules apply to Valkyres but not Raiders? As Valkyres have a base that is described as "transparent", while the Raiders base is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kryczek wrote:
kaisshau,

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

I believe that if you had read the rules involved properly you would realise that what you said here is the height of nonsense. If you had read the full rule on pg56 the 2nd paragraph would`ve filled you in. Read up.

I have read them. The second paragraph states that it is an exception to the rule in the first paragraph. If this rule does not apply to vehicles with bases, how can the exception to this rule apply to them?

The rules say "transparent 'flying base'" because when the rules were written there were no skimmers that came with a large flying base. Once they finally released them, there was no need to errata the rules to say "Some models may have a transparent 'flying base' or large 'flying base'" because the rules already state that for vehicles you ALWAYS measure from the hull, except for the purposes of assault. Thus, when they did FAQ the BRB, they added a few more situations where you measure from the base for the purposes of large flying bases.

Luide wrote:This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Time to remind my IG opponents about that...thanks for the observation .

Ok Guys, fair enough.

I`m still not convinced that this is the correct way to play it.
But i will accept it for the next month because i cant be bothered with this anymore.

Grendel083, Thanks for the chinwag

Heres hoping 6th is better wrote.

Ha! True enough. In a month we'll probably start the debate up again about fliers.