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axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Since Geanestealers arn't vehicles they use their base. As the base is a little under 1" in length they can just make it onto the board with a 1" move.
Different rules appying here, not a good comparison.

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Axeman please look up the wiki page on logical fallacies.
If everyone but you is going for the hull and you can't show a good raw arguement to counter their raw then you may be wrong.

grendel083 wrote:

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Since Geanestealers arn't vehicles they use their base. As the base is a little under 1" in length they can just make it onto the board with a 1" move.
Different rules appying here, not a good comparison.

Terminators on other hand would die if they rolled double 1 on difficult terrain test when coming from reserves.
But yes, as grendel said, Genestealers are infantry, not vehicles. And infantry always measure from base, not model.

After looking through the BRB I can find no rule that shows that any model is on the table. The only rules I can find the prove that a model has been placed on the table are those that govern the terrain that models occupy. The table is comprised on many different types of terrain, including clear. Every model has rules to show what terrain they occupy.
The rules for "Large Oval Based" skimmers has been FAQ'd to include using "only the base" to determine what terrain they occupy.
This is the reason that people can say that a model who's large oval base is entirely on the table is considered on the table. This is not my personal opinion. This is one way to read the rules that is logical. It is not a fallacy to use these rules this way.
I am not completely obtuse. I do not play it this way. I understand that there are other opinions, and be the strict RaW, this interpretation does hold water. Therefore I allow my opponents to play this way if the choose. No game as ever been improved upon by a large rules argument in the middle of it.

This is the reason that people can say that a model who's large oval base is entirely on the table is considered on the table. This is not my personal opinion. This is one way to read the rules that is logical. It is not a fallacy to use these rules this way.
I am not completely obtuse. I do not play it this way. I understand that there are other opinions, and be the strict RaW, this interpretation does hold water. Therefore I allow my opponents to play this way if the choose. No game as ever been improved upon by a large rules argument in the middle of it.

So let me get this straight: you have been vehemently arguing a viewpoint that in your opinion is not correct for a month on the basis that it is possible to understand how someone might feel that way?

Yeah. Isn't that what this forum is about. It's about the way rules can be views as written? It's not about Game as Played.
My whole post came about when I read this topic and tried to Prove my own opinion. I could not. I found that while there was a lot of evidence for my opinion, there was no proof.

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Thier is a distinction between the 2 ie it aint transparent. Where is it described thus?

We are told to measure to and from the Hull as for normal vehicles.

only for vehicles that dont have a base the 2 examples given do.

pg 56 means that you dont use any of the vehicle rules for moving as it has a normal base, pg 71 is superseded by pg56 which is in turn superseded by pg 12. the 2 examples move like the marine not the rhino, why? because it has a base.

As stated previously it has a Large Oval Flying Base, not a standard base. It also doesn't say to use the base if it has one.

Large oval base not flying. Which IS a standard base. And again sorry but in neither rule is large oval flying bases mentioned. You either have a base or a transparent flying base or none even.

Again Sorry friend always base. In this instance ie moving.

kryczek wrote:

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Thier is a distinction between the 2 ie it aint transparent. Where is it described thus?

I don't like quoting directly from the book as it goes against the forum policy, but I feel i'm going to have to:

P71 Measuring Distances wrote:....skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull.

I've added no empasis as it's already there in the rules. The transparent part is irrelevant, they highlighted the 'flying base'

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used...

Again I've added no words or emphasis, it's already there in the rules.

GW have described it as a Large Oval Flying Base. This isn't something I've added. A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

I don't like quoting directly from the book as it goes against the forum policy, but I feel i'm going to have to:

Apologies, didnt realise, homework added

P71 Measuring Distances wrote:....skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull.

Ravens etc dont have this so do not follow this rule.

They do however have transparent stalks

GW have described it as a Large Oval Flying Base

Fair enogh, they do indeed.

A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

Where does it say that again?

Am sorry man but its fairly obvious the base aint transparent and i dont think you can take it out of the sentence. On your rationale if transparent is irreleveant why isnt skimmer?

This for me is where the distinction lies ravens etc dont have a transparent flying base so follow the rules for models with a base.

In actual fact they dont use any of the vehicle/skimmer rules in regard to movement at all. Again because they have an actual base.

kryczek wrote:Am sorry man but its fairly obvious the base aint transparent and i dont think you can take it out of the sentence. On your rationale if transparent is irreleveant why isnt skimmer?

This for me is where the distinction lies ravens etc dont have a transparent flying base so follow the rules for models with a base.

In actual fact they dont use any of the vehicle/skimmer rules in regard to movement at all. Again because they have an actual base.

The point i'm making is the rules describe skimmers as having a transparent 'flying base'. The rulesbook highlights 'flying base' not that it is transparent. The Valkyrie/raven is also described as using a 'flying base' in this case a Large Oval Flying Base. Both use a Flying base.
The IG FAQ also tells us to use measuring and distances as per the Skimmers rule. Why would it say that if they treated the Large Oval Flying Base as a standard base? Why would they describe it as a Large Oval Flying Base if it's a standard base?
Also if it was a standard base and followed the rules as such then everything would be measured from the base and not the Hull. But we as shown many times this isn't the case.
And if we want to get really technical part of the Large Oval Flying base is a transparent flying stem. There's more clear plastic used on a Valkyrie's base than on a Waveserpent.
I'm sorry the rules clearly describe the Valkrie/Raven as using a form of flying base, not a standard one.

A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

Where does it say that again?

It says that where it says it uses a Large Oval Flying Base.

I have to applaud grendel083 on persistence and level-headedness.

Not to mention being correct.

Thank you. I do what I can.

Both use a Flying base.

In this you are 100% correct. What you seem to miss is that they are different from each other, large oval / transparent `flying base`.

The point i'm making is the rules describe skimmers as having a transparent 'flying base'.

True but as the raven etc dont have one they dont use that rule for purposes of movement.

Also if it was a standard base and followed the rules as such then everything would be measured from the base and not the Hull. But we as shown many times this isn't the case.

I believe you are wrong here as none of the faq`s talk about movement, specifically on page 56 2nd paragraph of V+MD, this is the only exception to this rule(i can find) as everything else( as you quite rightly pointed out) IS measured from the base.

And if we want to get really technical part of the Large Oval Flying base is a transparent flying stem.

Sorry man i dont buy that. Nice try though.

I'm sorry the rules clearly describe the Valkrie/Raven as using a form of flying base, not a standard one.

Again 100% correct, again different types.

kirsanth: Not to mention being correct.

Sorry man i`m sure your both wrong on this.

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Even though we both agree that they use a form of Flying base, the fact that it isn't transparent means that it doesn't count?

@kryczek: Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

Page 71, under "Measuring Distances" tells us a "skimmer's base is effectively ignored" with exceptions; measuring for movement is not one of them.

The IG FAQ gives us more exceptions, again, measuring for movement is not one of them.

Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

axeman1n wrote:Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

Really?
You actually were serious?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kryczek wrote:

kirsanth: Not to mention being correct.

Sorry man i`m sure your both wrong on this.

I am sure you are, but I am ok with you being incorrect.

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Yes.

All movement measurements are taken from the base because of the simple fact it has one.

Also in response to your earlier post regarding the base itself. It is a standard base because trygons and dreadknights have them. Granted they aint vehicles but still.

ToBeWilly, Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

This only applies to those vehicles that dont have a base as the first sentence shows. It does have a base and therefore the normal rules are used.

axeman1n, Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

Hey axman1n, it does matter because pg 3, measuring distances, first sentence. If the base is on the table, its on the table.

I am sure you are, but I am ok with you being incorrect.

Oh i am and i forgive your mistake.

Even ignoring movement, you're supporting the ability to measure off the table (since we measure to hull for shooting).
There's nothing allowing that - indeed that would be measuring past the end of the world.

kryczek wrote:

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Yes.

All movement measurements are taken from the base because of the simple fact it has one.

Also in response to your earlier post regarding the base itself. It is a standard base because trygons and dreadknights have them. Granted they aint vehicles but still.

So if the rules described a vehicle as using a transparent Large 'Flying Base', or transparent Small 'Flying base', these should not count either?
The rulebook highlights the word 'flying base' because that's the important part, not that its transparent.

Premise 1: The skimmer rules state explicitly that the skimmer's base is ignored for all purposes, except that if an assaulting unit can't reach the hull, it may instead assault the base.
Premise 2: The Valkyrie, Stormraven, and DE flyers are all classified at Skimmers in their rules.
Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

The rules for these vehicles, and the main rulebook FAQ, have codified a few exceptions and other purposes for which you do measure to the base.

Movement in general, and whether the vehicle is within the area of play/on the table, is not one of the given exceptions.

kryczek wrote:

ToBeWilly, Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

This only applies to those vehicles that dont have a base as the first sentence shows. It does have a base and therefore the normal rules are used.

The first sentence is not asking a question, whether the model has a base or not, it's a statement, "As vehicle models do not usually have a base". It is quite clear in telling us the normal rules for measuring to and from a base cannot be used. Whether it has a base or not is irrelevant. If it is a vehicle, all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Mannahnin wrote:Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Very true. I believe I said as much in an earlier post, but that part was ignored. So, I was responding to the part that wasn't. I figured you repeating it, was enough. Didn't want to sound like a broken record.

axeman1n wrote:Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

There are things not covered in the rules. These include "how to prove models on the table are on the table?," why water is wet?," and "why do dogs lick themselves?" The answers to these questions are all given as so obvious that there is no need to discuss them.

Ok here we go.

Premise 1: The skimmer rules state explicitly that the skimmer's base is ignored for all purposes, except that if an assaulting unit can't reach the hull, it may instead assault the base.

Again you are 100% correct however, again, as the raven etc have a normal base they dont follow any of the skimmer rules for measuring distances. So premise 1 in this example is patently wrong.

Premise 2: The Valkyrie, Stormraven, and DE flyers are all classified at Skimmers in their rules.

Yet again 100% correct. However in this you are only considering only the rule and not the model itself and the base its supplied with.

Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

3 in a row, well done. Again only for the clear bases not normal ones. Pg 56 quite clearly shows that as the vehicles actually have a base they dont use the vehicles rules for measuring distances.

Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Your correct here man but the raven etc dont use the skimmer rules(in relation to measuring distances) as they have a normal base. A key difference which people are failing to grasp.

all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Correct and the first exception is for vehicles with a base. pg56 V+MD. Who use normal rules.

Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

Thier is such a rule, V+MD pg56. As the vehicle does have a base the normal rules for measuring distances are used.

Could every/anyone please re-read that 1st sentence in V+MD(pg56) and tell me how/why they use the vehicle rules when the first sentence tells you you dont use the vehicle and therefore the skimmer rules as the models concerned have an actual base?

Vehicle with a base is less specific than skimmer with a base.
Skimmers with a base (which does not have to be all skimmers) have exceptions, as stated.

kryczek wrote:Could every/anyone please re-read that 1st sentence in V+MD(pg56) and tell me how/why they use the vehicle rules when the first sentence tells you you dont use the vehicle and therefore the skimmer rules as the models concerned have an actual base?

ToBeWilly wrote:The first sentence is not asking a question, whether the model has a base or not, it's a statement, "As vehicle models do not usually have a base". It is quite clear in telling us the normal rules for measuring to and from a base cannot be used. Whether it has a base or not is irrelevant. If it is a vehicle, all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Those are two separate sentences. The first one says vehicles don't usually have bases. Full stop.
The second one says vehicles measure to & from the hull. This is the rule.
It does not say "The following rule is for vehicles that do not have bases."
It also does not say "Unless the vehicle has a base."
The rule for vehicle measurement is that you use the hull, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Is it explicitly stated that you do not use this rule for those vehicles? No? Then you use this rule.

Sorry Kryczek, a Valkyrie/Raven does not use a normal base. In this you are 100% wrong i'm afraid.
The rules describe it as a flying base. So We have treat it as a Vehicle with a flying base.
Also as stated even if it was a normal base (rules say it isn't) the base would still be ignored as per skimmer rules.
Movement, as for all skimmers, is measured from he Hull.