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jkpz28 wrote:I thought the point of the FAQ was to help answer confusing RAW?

It's mainly to fix those issues in the context of a tournament run using INAT rules (there is - at least - a group of US tourneys using it) outside of non-tournament clubs whom also use it.

I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

axeman1n wrote:I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

WTF? No "solid evidence?"

The fact that the Valkyrie is 9" at it's shortest and 12" long at it's longest is evidence enough.

Moving it 6" is insufficient to place the model on the table, and it is destroyed per the FAQ.

axeman1n wrote:I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

No, really, there is solid evidence. The TO made the wrong call.
If the model is overhanging, it did not move completely onto the board. The FAQ shows that these units are destroyed.

The rule is not written in black and white. The TO is free to make the wrong call every time. You are also free to play the game any way you like, including leting your opponent get away with some shady stuff to keep your sportsmanship score frome taking a nose dive.

axeman1n wrote:The rule is not written in black and white. The TO is free to make the wrong call every time. You are also free to play the game any way you like, including leting your opponent get away with some shady stuff to keep your sportsmanship score frome taking a nose dive.

Umm, yea. P.8 of the FaQ disagrees with you:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

axeman1n wrote:Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

See the tail? You'll note it's not decorative, it's hull. I can measure to it for shooting. Are you saying I'm allowed - nay - required in some cases to measure off the board?

Have a rule to back that up?

From the IG codex FAQ from GW:

Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for gaming?
Due to its height it seems that it is impossible for a
Valkyrie to contest an objective, or for troops to
disembark/embark normally. (p56)
A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the
Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
with the following exception: For the purposes of
contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking
from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, measure to and from the
model’s base. For example, models wishing to embark
within a Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their
movement, all models within the unit are within 2" of
the Valkyrie’s base.

And from the main rulebook:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,
and its base is completely surrounded by enemy
models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)
A: Yes.

Q: Can you ram a skimmer on a large oval flying base?
(p71)
A: Yes, you have to make contact with either the base
or the hull.

Is the Valkyrie listed as a skimmer in the IG codex? Then that means the only thing that makes it treated differently as any other skimmer are these 4 very specific instances.

axeman1n wrote:Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

I'm sorry, you're wrong.




"The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!"

Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock
after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of
the board if that is the shortest distance to get out
from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also
keeps them on the board.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

The rules for measuring to see if the vendetta is off of the board are where? To measure to see where the model is relative to the TABLE/World are ammended in the FAQ that says to measure only the base. The table is not shooting the vendetta is it?
Your rules are not bullet proof. If they were, then it would have been obvious to anyone that placing the vehicle off the table edge once that FAQ about being destroyed if any part of your model was off of the edge, would have destroyed said vehicle. This is a very sore subject to me, as it did cost me a 2nd place showing in a local GT where I was ruled against. Not only did his vendetta show up, but the squad inside got out and obliterated my warboss. The vendetta took apart all of my Deffkopta squads too.

axeman1n wrote: To measure to see where the model is relative to the TABLE/World are ammended in the FAQ that says to measure only the base.

Where are you getting that? The FAQ's have been quoted by multiple people previously in this thread, and those FAQ's just don't say what you're asserting here. The FAQ, in fact, states to use the normal rules for moving vehicles, and then gives a very short list of very specific exceptions. The quote above is a gross over-application of the exceptions provided by the FAQ answers.

A model either is or is not entirely on the board. There is no mechanism for "measuring" that because no measurement is needed. Do you need to pull out a ruler to see if a Land Raider is entirely on the board? Of course not; use your eyes. Same thing with any other vehicle, regardless of vehicle type or size of base.

Note the following FAQ quote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

This question is specific to the relationship between the model and terrain/other models. It has no relation to the relationship between the model and the board as a whole.

axeman1n wrote:This is a very sore subject to me, as it did cost me a 2nd place showing in a local GT where I was ruled against. Not only did his vendetta show up, but the squad inside got out and obliterated my warboss. The vendetta took apart all of my Deffkopta squads too.

I'm very sorry you lost second to an illegal move.
That story isn't relevant to a RAW discussion.

The tail is very much a part of the vehicle.
Is the tail on the table?

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

That part is for tanks...Even specifies tanks several times.

Basimpo wrote:

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

That part is for tanks...Even specifies tanks several times.

It applies to any tank shocking vehicle, and the final sentence is just reinforcing what we already know from other questions.

I dont know, id have to agree...you measure from the base for determining if you are on terrain.

Question: If you deep struck that vendetta (ignoring whether or not you can deepstrike it) and its base rolled into clear terrain, and you put it so the tail is over dangerous terrain, would you be forced to roll a mishap?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
big oval base yes, skimmers, no.

Basimpo wrote:I dont know, id have to agree...you measure from the base for determining if you are on terrain.

Question: If you deep struck that vendetta (ignoring whether or not you can deepstrike it) and its base rolled into clear terrain, and you put it so the tail is over dangerous terrain, would you be forced to roll a mishap?

No.

But that's a completely different scenario that the FAQ has ruled on already.

Being in terrain is not comparable to being on the board.
If your tail is hanging off the board, is the vehicle completely on the board?

The base is completely on the board. If you took that base off and set it down on the table, it wouldnt be.

Basimpo wrote:The base is completely on the board. If you took that base off and set it down on the table, it wouldnt be.

So the vehicle isn't completely on the board then?

The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not? Furthermore, you do not /have/ to remove the base when the vehicle is wrecked, it could be "glued" in place.

Basimpo wrote:The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not? Furthermore, you do not /have/ to remove the base when the vehicle is wrecked, it could be "glued" in place.

No. When shooting, I measure to the hull, not the base.

If the hull is off the board, you're asking me to measure off the end of the world.
If the hull is off the board, the vehicle is not completely on the board, now is it?

Basimpo wrote:The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not?

For skimmers, no, the base mostly just represents the thing that holds the skimmer up in the air.

Ah well, i dont play IG so i concede happily
Theyll probably get aerial assault next edition anyway

The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

axeman1n wrote:The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

I can measure to part of the vehicle that is not on the table.
In fact, you're forcing me to measure off the table, which is illegal.
There is no rule supporting moving partially on - every time something similar is asked we're told no.

Youre clinging to the difficult terrain rules like its water in a desert. They don't actually give you any support.

Hm, dont you usually measure the closest bit first? why would you measure off the table in the first place? are you trying to measure so you are out of range?

Basimpo wrote:Hm, dont you usually measure the closest bit first? why would you measure off the table in the first place? are you trying to measure so you are out of range?

It's possible that the closest bit would be off the table.

If the nose was angled away from me, the tail would be closer - and it would be off the table.

How is this hard to understand?

"The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!"

The oval base is only used for the specific things in the FAQ. Anything that isn't terrain or disembarking uses the hull.

Including off the board.

The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.