Deployment of a Skimmer

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**DeathReaper**

soulbrand wrote:It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.

Concerning the underlined: Not to sound pedantic, but It is how it interacts with the table to a point, because the table is made up of terrain.

Most of the table is clear terrain.

So we have two rules to take into account.

#1 we have a rule that says the large oval base is what is counted for purposes of being in a terrain piece.

#2 we have a rule that says a model that can not move onto the table is destroyed

Thus, if you move on from reserves, and the large oval base is completely on the table but a part of the hull is not on the table the model is simultaneously on and off the table.

So when we consult the two rules in question, one says the model is fully within clear terrain. The other says the model is destroyed because it is not completely on the table.

So the model is destroyed.

**jwolf**

If having part of a legal target off the table was legal, then scattering a blast so that it was off the table but still covering a target would have to be legal, especially if the blast was entirely over the vehicle (easy enough to do with a Valkyrie wing and a small blast). Certainly no one is going to argue that the hull is off the table for purposes of being shot, right? Except that rules specify that if the hole is off the table's edge, it is a complete miss and discarded (it's in the BRB, look it up if you want to argue about it).
So the people who are saying that a Vendetta's tail can hang off the edge of the table are also saying that it's okay to make your model a smaller target, which goes against all the rules ever since the beginning of time! (a bit of hyperbole to entertain myself, but still true without tediously going into the specifics)

**axeman1n**

Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

**rigeld2**

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

...
Are any of the parts of the vehicle hanging off the edge of the table?

**barnowl**

Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

I see 6thED having special rules to deal with big wings. Don't have a LandRaider handy, but can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

**DeathReaper**

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

The Hull, as that is what we are told to use in the BRB, and we are told to ignore the base for most purposes.

barnowl wrote:can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

Yes, but only if it is sideways after moving, as the LR is longer than 6" but it is only 5 ish inches wide.

**rigeld2**

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I see 6thED having special rules to deal with big wings. Don't have a LandRaider handy, but can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

Not sure. I know Monoliths that are in Reserve need to Deep Strike - as they can't move faster than 6" and can't be completely on the board with a 6" move.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

**marv335**

I'd let you do the whole nose down thing, but only if you kept it that way for the whole game, and understood that you'd only be able to shoot at things directly under the model due to the way the (fixed) guns are pointing.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

I am really not worried about that. When the SR is in reserve it always moves on 24" as the Terminators with Librarian, and the Furioso dreadnought need to be close to the enemy. Then it usually gets shot on my opponents turn, as it draws fire till its stunned, immobile (Wrecked) or destroyed.

I think there were 3 games total, out of about 200 that the SR survived the first round of shooting, and only 1 where it did not get shot down all game.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

I am really not worried about that. When the SR is in reserve it always moves on 24" as the Terminators with Librarian, and the Furioso dreadnought need to be close to the enemy. Then it usually gets shot on my opponents turn, as it draws fire till its stunned, immobile (Wrecked) or destroyed.

I think there were 3 games total, out of about 200 that the SR survived the first round of shooting, and only 1 where it did not get shot down all game.

Fair enough. I was more talking about the Valk/Vend MFA if they're modeled in a 90 degree bank (or whatever the plan is)

**UMGuy**

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

I say do this...but then you have 45 degree firing arc which points straight down, so the lascannons become useless at this point.

**kryczek**

Remember there are 2 types of flying base.

If its a transparent flying base (falcons, land speeders etc) then measure from the hull.
If its got a normal style base (like the raven/valkyrie) then its measured form the base.

Pg 56 of the rule book. vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used".

Ravens/valkyries have a normal base so the usual method is used.

Pg3 of the rb. Models and units/ measuring distances.

"A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring between 2 models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points.
For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead".

There is already a distinction between the 2. I think some folk dont know this.

**jwolf**

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

The rule of "the hull is over the table," just like with a Wave Serpent or Land Speeder. Or any other model with a flying base. Why would this even be a question? Pretty much everyone else understands that when the edge of the board is the end of the world, there isn't an allowance for hanging bits off the board.

**grendel083**

kryczek wrote:Remember there are 2 types of flying base.

If its a transparent flying base (falcons, land speeders etc) then measure from the hull.
If its got a normal style base (like the raven/valkyrie) then its measured form the base.

Pg 56 of the rule book. vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used".

Ravens/valkyries have a normal base so the usual method is used.

Pg3 of the rb. Models and units/ measuring distances.

"A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring between 2 models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points.
For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead".

There is already a distinction between the 2. I think some folk dont know this.

Sorry this isn't right at all.
Ravens/Valkyrie do not use their base for all measuring. And they are not considered as occupying the area of the base.
The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.
They do not use a normal base, but a type of flying base.

**Basimpo**

soulbrand wrote:
The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.

Hm, thats a good idea. That wouldnt be modeling for advantage would it, because you are modeling to reduce disadvantage

**axeman1n**

If the model is over the table, but not touching the table, how can you say that it is "on" the table? If you cannot prove that a model in the center of the table is on the table, then how can you prove that a model at the edge of the table is off?

**kryczek**

Sorry Grendel083.

The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.

Your right about the first part but in the skimmers section measuring from the hull is only used for vehicles with the transparent flying base. The 2 given dont have that.

As for the IG FAQ this only talks about the examples you gave above it has nothing to say about movement.

Also they do use a normal base as it isnt transparent.

**grendel083**

kryczek wrote:Sorry Grendel083.

The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.

Your right about the first part but in the skimmers section measuring from the hull is only used for vehicles with the transparent flying base. The 2 given dont have that.

As for the IG FAQ this only talks about the examples you gave above it has nothing to say about movement.

Also they do use a normal base as it isnt transparent.

Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent). Also FAQ refers to the flyers being on a Large Oval Flying Base. Not a regular base. This would indicate the Valkyrie is indeed on a form of flying base. The rules and FAQ's are quite clear on what the base is used for. Anything else treat it like any other vehicle/skimmer (as the rules state).
So Hull measurements for movement, never base.

**soulbrand**

Ok, quick question for those in the Base camp; when you shoot, where are you measuring from (base, weapon, etc.)?

**Crablezworth**

soulbrand wrote:Ok, quick question for those in the Base camp; when you shoot, where are you measuring from (base, weapon, etc.)?

If you really want to blow their mind, ask them about what angle a hull mounted weapon can shoot up or down... being that they're so eager to model their flimmers doing nosedives to get around dem pesky rules..

**kryczek**

Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent).

Thats because its obvious. Its not emphasised because it doesnt need to be.

Also for your perusal? pg56, vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rules of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. "

They 2 have bases and therefore use the rules for models with bases as this means the normal rules for moving are used.

So we can in fact now remove the skimmer rule from this debate, but the IG FAQ still stands as it doesnt cover movement.

So Hull measurements for movement, never base

Sorry friend always base.

**jwolf**

axeman1n wrote:If the model is over the table, but not touching the table, how can you say that it is "on" the table? If you cannot prove that a model in the center of the table is on the table, then how can you prove that a model at the edge of the table is off?

No one except you has trouble determining if a model is over the table or not. Just like every other model with a flying base or stand, we use the term "on" the table to mean "the whole model and it's base are within the infinite box containing the 4x6 two dimensional area defined as the play area or table". Your continued pursuit of ambiguity where none exists does neither you nor your position any credit.

**grendel083**

kryczek wrote:
Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent).

Thats because its obvious. Its not emphasised because it doesnt need to be.

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Also for your perusal? pg56, vehicles and measuring distances.

Also for your perusal? pg71, measuring distances.
We are told to measure to and from the Hull as for normal vehicles. There are exceptions listed, movement isn't one of them. So we follow normal vehicle rules as stated.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rules of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. "

They 2 have bases and therefore use the rules for models with bases as this means the normal rules for moving are used.

As stated previously it has a Large Oval Flying Base, not a standard base. It also doesn't say to use the base if it has one.

So we can in fact now remove the skimmer rule from this debate, but the IG FAQ still stands as it doesnt cover movement.

So Hull measurements for movement, never base
Sorry friend always base.

Ruling out skimmers means you're left with a vehicle. Vehicle rules state measurements are taken to and from the Hull. We're told what the base is used for, anything else you follow standard rules.
So again, Hull measurements for movement, never base.

**liturgies of blood**

Grendle et al I agree with you on all the RAW to do with the movement onto the board but I have a question for you.
Last time I took out my stormraven, I got bitched at because I measured from the front of the flying base to move my flyer around the board.
I drop a line to work out when I move it on but in general after that it is a pain in the ass to check the front due to paralax.
Anyone have a problem with that?

**grendel083**

liturgies of blood wrote:Grendle et al I agree with you on all the RAW to do with the movement onto the board but I have a question for you.
Last time I took out my stormraven, I got bitched at because I measured from the front of the flying base to move my flyer around the board.
I drop a line to work out when I move it on but in general after that it is a pain in the ass to check the front due to paralax.
Anyone have a problem with that?

I'll agree standard moving around the board, from a practical point of view it makes no difference. 12" from the base or nose it still ends up in the same spot. I'd have no problem with someone measuring from the base. I use my own Valkyrie alot, and I do that myself.
Deploying onto the board does make a difference, so the model should always be used (as per RAW).

**liturgies of blood**

I was just wondering about on the table. I go from the tip of the nose for moving on. The guy seems to have been just TFG.

**axeman1n**

Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

**rigeld2**

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Gene stealers are never measured to the model. Vehicles are.