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Well, the post still stands. My point is still in there just use the Autarch example or dual casting Psychic Communion for Grey Knights. (Thanks for that info on the dual-Astropath I actually wasn't aware of that )

snakel wrote:
You read that automatically passing a test means you took the test without actual taking the test ,i read that to take a test you must actual roll the dice otherwise no test was taken ,

When you start making statements that sound like a philosophical conundrum, it weakens your argument. I shouldn't have to visualize one hand clapping.

No, wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed to I1.
Yes, wraiths assaulting through dangerous terrain are slowed to I1.
Because lowering initiative can be equated to "slowing" the model.

IMHO I think its an oversight that dangerous terrain 'slows' the model to I1, but the rule only mentions 'not slowing' for 'difficult terrain' and not for 'dangerous terrain'. However in RAW, there is no argument for not lowering the Initiative of a wraith assaulting through dangerous terrain.

It never says they are not slowed by dangerous terrain. It just says they auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain. Now, moving through difficult terrain requires a difficult terrain test, but thanks to wraiths they are not slowed by this terrain test.

The terrain still calls for a difficult terrain test and Wraiths per RAW are NOT immune to the terrain (as c'tan are) so why is no difficult terrain test taken?

If the difficult terrain test is taken, but results in no reduction of movement, would they not still strike at init 1?

Most agree that the dangerous terrain test is not ignored, what rule makes the difficult terrain test ignored?

It's mostly due to the drop in Initiative being equated to attacking slower in close combat. Paraphrased from the BRB: Initiative is how fast a model reacts. Of course that can be argued to be merely fluff, in which case Wraiths would suffer the Init drop for assaulting through difficult terrain (even if they do always move 6").

Happyjew, thats how I read it as well... after all, the initiative being reduced is due to the ambushing defending forces in the fluff, so if arguing 'never slowed by terrain' in a fluff argument, I would say that they can be 'slowed' by things that are not terrain, aka ambushing models.

Anyhow, I discounted the fluff for 'slowing' for the obvious reason that fluff counters fluff. RAW seems to me that difficult terrain tests are not ignored, precisely because the rule does not say "Difficult terrain tests are ignored" it instead says "never slowed by difficult terrain." I just dont know why everyone keeps saying that Wraiths in diff terrain = init 2 but init 1 in dangerous.

Because the wording of the two parts of the rule are significantly different. Compare and contrast to how the C'Tan's rule is phrased.

Trying to wonder how you justify slowing a model that automatically passes this test because it is, by the description of the unit, incorporeal and out-of-phase with the reality the terrain is found in.

I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

Psienesis, if the spirit of the rule is in question, consider that init1 is representing being ambushed by someone hiding behind a tree that the wraith cant see.

Psienesis wrote:I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

I think you're missing the difference between RAW, RAI, and HIWPI.

Psienesis wrote:Trying to wonder how you justify slowing a model that automatically passes this test because it is, by the description of the unit, incorporeal and out-of-phase with the reality the terrain is found in.

I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

Also, the argument could be made that, in certain situations, the Wraiths must actually make themselves corporeal to strike. Becoming corporeal in Dangerous Terrain requires that the Wraith make sure not to materialize on a fire / acid / gaping hole in the ground / whathavyou and it is the act of avoiding these dangers when materializing that slows them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Also, the argument could be made that, in certain situations, the Wraiths must actually make themselves corporeal to strike. Becoming corporeal in Dangerous Terrain requires that the Wraith make sure not to materialize on a fire / acid / gaping hole in the ground / whathavyou and it is the act of avoiding these dangers when materializing that slows them.

But they are not slowed by difficult terrain, and Dangerous terrain does not slow down models (AKA Reduce the distance they travel through that terrain)

They do have to be corpreal to strike; in fact, their attacks are based on the fact that they become corpreal with their claws inside the victim.

Not only that, but dangerous terrain can be seen as a lot more unpredictable than difficult terrain. Dangerous terrain isn't purely the chance that one of your guys stubs his toe on a spike, but the chance that part of something slips suddenly and cleaves him in twine, or part of the roof flattens him, or something explodes next to him, or all three at once.

Wraiths have to phase back in at some point, and it could well be argued that they are far from omnipotent enough to be able to predict that something with smack them in the face on the way in, or blow one of their claws off.

In the same vein, if the spirit of the rule implies that Wraiths simply avoid damage by phasing out, then why are they damaged at all? Why do do they not spend all game phased out except when they're attacking? If I shoot at them then they take damage; if I hit them in CC they take damage; if a vehicle blows up and hits them then they take damage; why would they not take damage if a chunk of something falls and collides with their face?

EDIT: In order to clarify, I am not arguing that they can fail the test, just that being slowed by having to move cautiously, and phasing through everything carefully, is not against the 'spirit of the rule'.

Wraiths keep their initiative in difficult terrain as they are never slowed by difficult terrain as in they aren't slowed by it. It is not dangerous terrain. There is no test for them to go through difficult as it states this. "wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain."

So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Kitzz wrote:So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Please, explain your reasoning.....like really spell it out.

Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Is that your idea of "explaining your reasoning" (with the addendum of "really spelling it out")?!?

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Auto pass means you dont roll, as they auto pass.

There is no test for them to go through difficult as it states this. "wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain

Difficult terrain tests are not married to being slowed by terrain. After all, if you roll a 6 for your terrain roll, it did not slow you down, but the test was still required. Same with wraiths. A rule saying you are 'not slowed by terrain', by itself, is not the same thing as a rule saying 'you dont test for terrain.'

Kitzz wrote:So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Obviously no.
They've automatically passed the psychic test to activate their force weapons. This means they don't have to roll dice for the psychic test.
It just means they have taken the test and passed it, which means it can be hooded.

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Wraiths don't need to roll for dangerous terrain test, this is given.
It's quite simple.
1) Wraiths assault through dangerous terrain.
2) Wraiths have to take Dangerous Terrain test.
3) Wraiths automatically pass the DT test, no dice are rolled.
3) Wraiths have taken DT test, so they strike at Init 1.

Anyone who disagrees with this reasoning is also arguing that Brotherhood Banner activation cannot be countered by Psychic Hood. (No Psychic test -> No hood).

Clearly some people are too busy to actually read the rest of the thread... but never fear, DogofWar is here!

Background:

"WRAITHFLIGHT - Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests." (C:Necrons, 44)

"IMMUNE TO NATURAL LAW - C'tan Shards ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving." (C:Necrons, 40)

"TERRAIN - There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable. Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it." (BGB, 13)

"DANGEROUS TERRAIN - As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by a dangerous terrain test." (BGB, 14)

"ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER - If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. [...] The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of closer range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all if its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers." (BGB, 36)

Conclusions

Both sides seem to agree that Wraiths do not have to take a Difficult Terrain test and are therefore NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Difficult Terrain as their rule specifically states that they are "never slowed by Difficult Terrain."

However, if a unit of Wraiths assault through Dangerous Terrain, we have two differing interpretations:

1) The Wraiths ARE slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test requires that you must have taken a test even if you were not required to make a roll. A unit cannot automatically pass (or fail) a test without having to take the test.
b) If a unit takes a Dangerous Terrain test, they are slowed to I1 regardless of whether they pass or fail.
c) The language of the "Wraithflight" rule is notably different from the C'tan "Immune to Natural Law" rule so it is unlikely that they are designed to act in exactly the same way.

2) The Wraiths ARE NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test means that you never took the test in the first place. Unless you physically roll the dice, you have not taken a Dangerous Terrain test.
b) If you do not have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, you are not slowed to I1.

My personal view is that side 1 is correct and while Wraiths are NOT slowed to I1 when moving through Difficult Terrain, they ARE slowed to I1 when moving through Dangerous Terrain. The difference in wording between "Wraithflight" and "Immune to Natural Law" is pretty convincing in this case, I feel.

Ramifications

This would mean that in the example of a Brotherhood Banner, the GKs would never have to roll for the psychic test (since they automatically pass) but will still have taken the test. This results in the following:
1) The GKs will never fail their psychic test for activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9) you cannot roll a 10, 11, or 12.
2) The GKs will never receive Perils of the Warp when activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9), you cannot roll a 2 or 12.
3) Psychic hoods CAN affect the activation of NFW. Even though you do not roll, there is still a psychic test that has been passed, and therefore it is subject to nullification.

Hope this helps!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Clearly some people are too busy to actually read the rest of the thread... but never fear, DogofWar is here!

Background:

"WRAITHFLIGHT - Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests." (C:Necrons, 44)

"IMMUNE TO NATURAL LAW - C'tan Shards ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving." (C:Necrons, 40)

"TERRAIN - There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable. Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it." (BGB, 13)

"DANGEROUS TERRAIN - As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by a dangerous terrain test." (BGB, 14)

"ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER - If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. [...] The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of closer range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all if its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers." (BGB, 36)

Conclusions

Both sides seem to agree that Wraiths do not have to take a Difficult Terrain test and are therefore NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Difficult Terrain as their rule specifically states that they are "never slowed by Difficult Terrain."

However, if a unit of Wraiths assault through Dangerous Terrain, we have two differing interpretations:

1) The Wraiths ARE slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test requires that you must have taken a test even if you were not required to make a roll. A unit cannot automatically pass (or fail) a test without having to take the test.
b) If a unit takes a Dangerous Terrain test, they are slowed to I1 regardless of whether they pass or fail.
c) The language of the "Wraithflight" rule is notably different from the C'tan "Immune to Natural Law" rule so it is unlikely that they are designed to act in exactly the same way.

2) The Wraiths ARE NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test means that you never took the test in the first place. Unless you physically roll the dice, you have not taken a Dangerous Terrain test.
b) If you do not have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, you are not slowed to I1.

My personal view is that side 1 is correct and while Wraiths are NOT slowed to I1 when moving through Difficult Terrain, they ARE slowed to I1 when moving through Dangerous Terrain. The difference in wording between "Wraithflight" and "Immune to Natural Law" is pretty convincing in this case, I feel.

Ramifications

This would mean that in the example of a Brotherhood Banner, the GKs would never have to roll for the psychic test (since they automatically pass) but will still have taken the test. This results in the following:
1) The GKs will never fail their psychic test for activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9) you cannot roll a 10, 11, or 12.
2) The GKs will never receive Perils of the Warp when activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9), you cannot roll a 2 or 12.
3) Psychic hoods CAN affect the activation of NFW. Even though you do not roll, there is still a psychic test that has been passed, and therefore it is subject to nullification.

Hope this helps!

DoW

You're totally right, I just wanted to add 1 argument to Side 2 which I have seen:

Being reduced to Initiative 1 is a form of being "slowed."

And Wraithflight doesn't say anything about not being slowed by dangerous terrain. Therefore the word slowed has no relevance to the discussion.

Unit1126PLL wrote:You're totally right, I just wanted to add 1 argument to Side 2 which I have seen:
Being reduced to Initiative 1 is a form of being "slowed."

And it is completely worthless argument against Side 1 as we're not arguing that Wraiths are reduced to Init 1 when assaulting through difficult terrain.
We're arguing that they're reduced to Init 1 when assaulting through Dangerous terrain. Two completely different things.

There is also Side 3, which argues that Wraiths are hit at Init 1 even when assaulting through difficult terrain, but I don't think their argument holds water.
Reasoning on this has nothing to do with the arguments that hitting at Init 1 is somehow 'slowed' when it's pretty obvious the "slowed" refers to movement. (BRB pg 14, paragraph three).
It is because I think Wraiths (like Vehicles) don't have to take difficult terrain tests at all.

I'm still hung up on the fact that Wraiths are not slowed by difficult terrain, while C'Tan ignore the effects of terrain. To me (though I would never enforce it) it sounds like the Wraiths are assumed to always roll "6" for moving through difficult terrain, however, they still suffer an and all affects for doing so (i.e. Init drop). Again though, this is HIWPI if I was playing as Necrons.

They are not slowed by terrain, meaning they can never even take the test as this provides the possibility of them failing - this is different to saying they automatically pass the test, which would require them taking it just not needing to roll

It is a subtle difference in language.

So they ignore the effects of difficult terrain?

I'm not saying that I'm right, only how I interpret the rules, and how I would play it.

They ignore it by never being slowed by it - it is different than saying they auto pass a difficult terrain test.

As they dont take a test (to take a test would allow the possibility of being slowed, which is expressly forbidden) they are not dropped to I1. If they automatically "passed" the test( an odd statement, as DT tests dont have a pass / fail criteria attached) then they owuld be dropped to I1.