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The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

rigeld2 wrote:The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

p. 6 Brb: Initiative. "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first."

Unfortunately GW has blended fluff with the rule in this case. You cannot just choose to ignore half the rule regarding difficult terrain because it uses the word "slow". Taken in context with all descriptions of Initiative, and attacking through cover it becomes quite clear to anyone with common sense.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

p. 6 Brb: Initiative. "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first."

Unfortunately GW has blended fluff with the rule in this case. You cannot just choose to ignore half the rule regarding difficult terrain because it uses the word "slow". Taken in context with all descriptions of Initiative, and attacking through cover it becomes quite clear to anyone with common sense.

Difficult terrain I agree they don't get set to I1.
Dangerous terrain however - they took the test. I read the wraiths as relating to movement - initiative is normally mentioned specifically.
I see your point, however. HIWPI it doesnt matter - 2 isn't that big a difference from 1. I'd let the Necron player have it.

Edit: late to the party.

yeah, I accept this fact:

Assault through Difficult Terrain?: You ignore it.
Assault through Dangerous Terrain?: You roll the test, and are I1
Assault through both?: Only roll Dangerous, and your I1

Wraiths never roll for dangerous terrain. The test is automatically passed. This has nothing to do with the initiative drop, but it should be stated to avoid any misunderstandings.

I thought it was difficult they ignore? let me read it....

TO THE CODEX!!!

EDIT AFTER READING:

ohhhh, okay, so I amend the above:

Diff. terrain: totally ignore
Dang: No test, still I1
both: just Init 1

Nemesor Dave wrote:p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?

Because the Underlined is fluff.

And the Italic text is the rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?

Because the Underlined is fluff.

And the Italic text is the rules.

The BRB defines initiative as the speed - slow or fast by which models attack. It should be no difficult step of logic to reach to say that if a rule is lowering initiative, it is slowing the model.

There is no hard "slow" definition, therefore reducing a models initiative obviously qualifies as slowing it. You've read the relevant rules. Now it's not hard to understand that lowering initiative is slowing the model which goes against the "not slowed by" rule.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The BRB defines initiative as the speed - slow or fast by which models attack. It should be no difficult step of logic to reach to say that if a rule is lowering initiative, it is slowing the model.

The fluff definition, sure.

There is no hard "slow" definition, therefore reducing a models initiative obviously qualifies as slowing it. You've read the relevant rules. Now it's not hard to understand that lowering initiative is slowing the model which goes against the "not slowed by" rule.

HIWPI it just doesn't matter to me.

But RAW I don't agree with you at all. There's no rules definition for Initiative that includes speed. The definition on page 6 is mostly fluff - the rules for it later (in the assault section) outlines the actual rules - and there's no faster/slower involved in those rules, just higher/lower.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Kevin949 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Citation needed.

P.13 shows that Dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult terrain.

P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

It lists 3 types of terrain.
Clear.
Difficult.
Impassible.

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as"

Dangerous terrain is not clear terrain, and it is not impassible terrain, so what are we left with?

Off topic, slightly; the C'tan power Sentient Singularity, creates dangerous terrain that is not difficult terrain, as well. It is the only example that I know of, though.

Edit: Although, it is only dangerous to vehicles, and all difficult is already dangerous to vehicles. But, it isn't difficult to any other unit type...maybe not a great example, but there ya go.

ToBeWilly wrote:Off topic, slightly; the C'tan power Sentient Singularity, creates dangerous terrain that is not difficult terrain, as well. It is the only example that I know of, though.

We used to think that the Spore Cloud did as well, but it was FAQed to not.
(not quoting to dispute, quoting for context)

The night spinner causes units to take dangerous terrain tests when they move, but not difficult terrain tests.
Not all dangerous terrain is also difficult. Mine fields are dangerous and not difficult.
Wraiths do not have anything preventing them from being slowed down by dangerous terrain tests, even if they auto pass them. Get over it, as it doesn't happen that often, and usually just means that their enemies are now striking at the same time as them.

axeman1n wrote:The night spinner causes units to take dangerous terrain tests when they move, but not difficult terrain tests.

They count as being in both difficult and dangerous, not just dangerous.

Quick check through Brb does show that designers definitely didn't assume all dangerous terrain is difficult, even though they did write it so on "guidelines on categorising terrain" (pg 13) as DR said.

Examples:
Pg 36, Assaulting through cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test..."
Pg 62, Wrecks: "counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain..."
Page 71, Moving skimmers: "However, if a moving skimmer starts or ends its move In difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Jump infantry, pg 52: "...they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain."
Bikes, pg 53, "treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead."

Basically most rules, main exception being pg 13, have been written to take into account possibility of dangerous terrain not being difficult.

But to bring this back on track:
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain." Pg 53, brb
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain" Pg 44, C:Necrons

If Wraiths are not reduced to I1 by assaulting through dangerous terrain, then same applies to Bikes too.

Does anyone here really, really think that it's RAI or RAW that Bikes are not reduced to I1 while assaulting through cover? Do take the "Assault" paragraph on pg 53 concerning Bikes into account before answering. And if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Citation needed.

P.13 shows that Dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult terrain.

P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

It lists 3 types of terrain.
Clear.
Difficult.
Impassible.

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as"

Dangerous terrain is not clear terrain, and it is not impassible terrain, so what are we left with?

Pg 62 first paragraph:

"WRECKS
Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively
become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult
and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. Players
must clearly mark that a vehicle has been wrecked in
any way they consider suitable. For example, they can
turn the vehicle or just its turret upside down (and not
sideways to gain extra cover!), place a marker or cotton
wool on it to represent smoke and flames, and so on."

Also, you're ignoring the entire dangerous terrain entry on page 14, which does NOT mention it as being difficult. The difficult terrain rules simply state that terrain MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous. If all dangerous terrain was also difficult there would be no need to make this clarification anywhere and it would all simply state "Dangerous" and not "Difficult and Dangerous". Also, the dangerous terrain rules do not say your movement is slowed either.

Luide wrote:Quick check through Brb does show that designers definitely didn't assume all dangerous terrain is difficult, even though they did write it so on "guidelines on categorising terrain" (pg 13) as DR said.

Examples:
Pg 36, Assaulting through cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test..."
Pg 62, Wrecks: "counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain..."
Page 71, Moving skimmers: "However, if a moving skimmer starts or ends its move In difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Jump infantry, pg 52: "...they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain."
Bikes, pg 53, "treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead."

Basically most rules, main exception being pg 13, have been written to take into account possibility of dangerous terrain not being difficult.

But to bring this back on track:
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain." Pg 53, brb
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain" Pg 44, C:Necrons

If Wraiths are not reduced to I1 by assaulting through dangerous terrain, then same applies to Bikes too.

Does anyone here really, really think that it's RAI or RAW that Bikes are not reduced to I1 while assaulting through cover? Do take the "Assault" paragraph on pg 53 concerning Bikes into account before answering. And if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

retraction....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My answer before is based on the false premiss that dangerous terrain is always difficult terrain. As it appears they can be separate I would break it down like this:

1. Wraiths are not slowed by difficult terrain. a. no movement penalty b. no initiative penalty when assaulting through cover

2. Wraiths automatically pass dangerous terrain tess. a. no movement penalty. b. initiative is reduced to I1 since the wraith can be slowed by dangerous terrain.

Bikes are similar - not slowed by difficult terrain, but when assaulting through cover count as moving through dangerous terrain which they are indeed slowed by, to I1.

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

Kevin949 wrote:Pg 62 first paragraph:

"WRECKS
Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively
become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult
and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. ...."

Also, you're ignoring the entire dangerous terrain entry on page 14, which does NOT mention it as being difficult. The difficult terrain rules simply state that terrain MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous. If all dangerous terrain was also difficult there would be no need to make this clarification anywhere and it would all simply state "Dangerous" and not "Difficult and Dangerous". Also, the dangerous terrain rules do not say your movement is slowed either.

The underlined is not true. They need the distinction for effects like Spore cloud (Spre cloud if you look at the FAQ).

"MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous" just means that not all difficult terrain is dangerous. and that citation means nothing. It just shows that wrecks are difficult and dangerous, as opposed to craters which are just difficult. (And effects that emulate terrain like the Spore (Spre) cloud.

Look to P.13 where they define terrain.

Q: How many general classes of terrain are there?
A: 3 (P.13, left column, 2nd Graph, 3rd sentence.)

Q: What are the three general classes of terrain?

A:
#1: Clear. (P.13, left column, 3rd Graph.)
#2: Difficult. (P.13, left column, 4th Graph.)
#3: Impassible. (P.13, left column, 5th Graph.)

Q: Is Dangerous a class of terrain on its own?

A: No

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as" and that is difficult terrain. Making dangerous terrain a subset of difficult terrain. Thus all difficult terrain MAY BE "additionally categorised as" dangerous terrain.

Re-read P.14 Right Column 2nd Graph.

"Dangerous terrain As mentioned previously [where? in the difficult terrain rules on P.13] some terrain features will be difficult to move through. ... roll... for every model that has moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move..."

axeman1n wrote:Not all dangerous terrain is also difficult. Mine fields are dangerous and not difficult.

Incorrect. Re-read P.13 and the Difficult terrain section.

It says that "Difficult terrain includes areas of rubble, jungles [Etc.]... If the terrain feature includes hazards, such as booby traps...then it may be additionally categorized as both difficult and dangerous terrain."

Clear terrain has no terrain features. Difficult terrain has terrain features and "If the terrain feature includes hazards...then it may be additionally categorized as both difficult and dangerous terrain."

Mine fields are difficult terrain by default (Though people may house rule otherwise).

You're still typing a ton of words and none of them make any mention of page 14 where dangerous terrain is it's own thing and not paired with difficult terrain. You're taking 'examples' as hard and fast facts, which is not the case here. There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult and quite a few them have been mentioned already so I won't go over them again.

Minefields still specify both difficult and dangerous terrain in their rules (at least on the apoc asset cards anyway).

Anyway, you're not seeing the forest for the trees, just because difficult can sometimes be dangerous does not mean in any sense, no matter how you spin it, that all dangerous is also difficult. IF that was the case, the entries for dangerous terrain would not be as prolific as they are and it would probably be something along the lines of "Difficult (Dangerous)" with a one line entry in the difficult rule stating that if it is dangerous you must pass a dangerous terrain test on top of the difficult terrain check. Then it would specify what a dangerous terrain test is and that would be that, but it's not.

Kevin949 wrote:There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult

Those things are not terrain, they are all special rules of models and do not actually create terrain. Just like the spore Cloud.

Q: How many general classes of terrain are there?
A: 3 (P.13, left column, 2nd Graph, 3rd sentence.)

Q: What are the three general classes of terrain?

A:
#1: Clear. (P.13, left column, 3rd Graph.)
#2: Difficult. (P.13, left column, 4th Graph.)
#3: Impassible. (P.13, left column, 5th Graph.)

Q: Is Dangerous a class of terrain on its own?

A: No

Dangerous terrain is not a class of terrain on its own. It is a subcategory of difficult terrain. All dangerous terrain is difficult, but not all difficult terrain is dangerous.

Notice how clear terrain and impassible terrain (The two other types of terrain) do not include "may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous" so since it does not say that they can be dangerous, they can not due to the permissive rule set.

Without being able to refute this point, your argument falls apart.

Kevin949 wrote:There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult and quite a few them have been mentioned already so I won't go over them again.

You should mention them, because All I have found were spore cloud, that does not create an area of dangerous terrain.

And the necron C'Tan singularity thing, which both difficult and dangerous were mentioned for that rule.

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

im not going to argue the whole dangerous terrain thing, since i really cant say for sure....


but just pointing out.... dont most wraith players take whip coils? - those reduce targets to init 1 anyway, so wouldnt it just be both sides striking at the same time?

the other thing... if your wraiths can ignore cover and terrain, why not just move around the dangerous part, and then charge?

also, - if your target is inside dangerous arent they taking dangerous terrain tests as well just for being inside it?

DarthSpader wrote:also, - if your target is inside dangerous arent they taking dangerous terrain tests as well just for being inside it?

Only if they move.

If they stay stationary then no test.

*Redacted*

Kevin949 wrote:Since wraiths are jump infantry if you move 12" into difficult terrain (say, ruins) then you have to take a dangerous test, which they auto pass, but they still had to test so they'd strike at I1, which is kind of a big deal here.

You don't strike at I1 for your movement during the movement phase.
You strike at I1 for your movement during the Assault phase.
JI move as Infantry for assault moves.
There has to be real dangerous terrain for Wraiths to be penalized.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Since wraiths are jump infantry if you move 12" into difficult terrain (say, ruins) then you have to take a dangerous test, which they auto pass, but they still had to test so they'd strike at I1, which is kind of a big deal here.

You don't strike at I1 for your movement during the movement phase.
You strike at I1 for your movement during the Assault phase.
JI move as Infantry for assault moves.
There has to be real dangerous terrain for Wraiths to be penalized.

Ah yes, derp derp.

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Nate668 wrote:

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Nowhere in the wraithflight rules does it say that at all.