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snakel; repeating the same garbage over and over does not make you right.

snakel wrote:here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

That is not a fact. You have nothing to support that, and the statement is insulting.

wraiths by definition of their rule ignore Difficult terrain the dangerous part is in their rule, to stop people saying you need to test to see if you die .

Please show me the word ignore. And no one is saying that you need to test to see if they die - they don't risk dying as they automatically pass the test.

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed.

,the only way the I1 camp can win this argument is to make you take the test then ignore the result because if you do not actually take the test it never took place .

If you're Fearless you automatically pass all Pinning tests.
I force a Pinning test on your Purifiers.
Your interpretation: I auto-pass, so I never took the test. But I'm forced to take the test, so I take the test, but I auto-pass, so I didn't take the test, so.... (infinite loop of breakage)
The right interpretation: I auto-pass so don't need to roll, but the requirement to take the test has been satisfied.

that means they don't roll the dice but they still hit .

Correct - because if you rolled the dice they wouldn't matter.
But if you assume a to-hit was never rolled, then there's all kinds of rules that stop working - like rolling to wound, rolling for pen...

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

That is not a fact. You have nothing to support that, and the statement is insulting.

YMTC this very forum is support for that statement, and if you take insult from a persons statements on a forum, you really need to learn to walk away ,this is in no way a serious matter to get upset over .

I personally read, laugh and move on but that's just me

rigeld2 wrote:[

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed.

.

Point in fact

The rules are a guideline not gospel stop asking for something all the time play the game use you own mind and stop reading the rulebook like a bible

Too many people take this game way to seriously


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Avatar 720 wrote:snakel; repeating the same garbage over and over does not make you right.

In your mind its garbage not in everyone's, i could just as easily state the same of your statements, but that's the beauty of this game rules are guidelines not fact ,stop trying to get rules for every situation to be black and white they are not and never will be

snakel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed..

Point in fact

The rules are a guideline not gospel stop asking for something all the time play the game use you own mind and stop reading the rulebook like a bible

Too many people take this game way to seriously

Let me get this straight...

You know what the YMDC forum is for - explaining the Rules as Written.
You come into a thread, insult people who actually do help to explain the rules, and then handwave the rules away because they're just "guidelines"?

Sir, if you're trolling us - well done. I'm done with this.

If you feel insulted then that's your call i have not nor will i insult you but you(insulting to me would be a personal attack i just don't agree with you if that's insulting i give up ) seem to have taken offense to my statements so for that i apologize but trolling is not my aim and stating my take on the rules is allowed

snakel wrote:If you feel insulted then that's your call i have not nor will i insult you but you(insulting to me would be a personal attack i just don't agree with you if that's insulting i give up ) seem to have taken offense to my statements so for that i apologize but trolling is not my aim and stating my take on the rules is allowed

If I said, "You're dumb." that's an insult. It's a minor one that 99% of the world would shrug off, but it's an insult.
Saying that the people in YMDC are simply hunting for ways to tear down a good unit is insulting - it's insinuating a bias that many of us try very hard to keep out of our interpretations.

I don't care if you disagree with me. YMDC requires rules support in disagreements - it's in the tenets. Treating the rules as guidelines and making up whatever you want doesn't work here.
The rules 100% disagree with your take on them. You have no rules support for your arguments.

Stating how you would play it is fine. Saying how you think the rules are intended to work is fine.
First, you're supposed to clarify that's what you're talking about.
Second, you can't use that in an argument against RAW.

Also, please watch your grammar/spelling and how you type. The post I quoted has a single capital letter (and lots of places there should be one) and next to no punctuation.

I would love to argue with you some more and unintentionally insult you unlike your intend insult but, RAW is what it is and i read that automatically passing a test means you do not need to take that test ,which means the test didn't take place

Therefore wraiths always strike at i2 as i read it

Feel free to carry on thanks for everything

"You're taking the rules too seriously" is not a legitimate argument in this sub-forum which is devoted to discussion of the rules. If you don't want to talk about the rules as a serious subject of discussion, please avail yourself of the rest of the site.

Thanks.

snakel wrote:I would love to argue with you some more and unintentionally insult you unlike your intend insult but

I didn't insult you. I was comparing what you said to an obvious insult.

, RAW is what it is

Yes.

and i read that automatically passing a test means you do not need to take that test ,which means the test didn't take place

Where did you read that? What rules support do you have? You have yet to show any.

RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .

What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

What part or page states automatically passed tests are not taken ? none

So we fall back on how we read a rule to make our judgement ,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

I have therefore read the rules as written ,taken that information and ,come to my conclusion .

Unlike most other languages, English can be very complex making one persons reading and understanding of a rule or statement completely different .

If anything in this last post has broken the rules of this forum them i will happily leave it

snakel wrote:,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

That does not mean they didn't need to take the test.

They need to take the test.

They take the test by auto passing, so they do not have to roll for the test.

Then the rules for assaulting through Difficult terrain kick in.

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

Read the rule again. Does it read "Don't need to take dangerous terrain tests?" No it doesn't. It reads they automatically pass those tests. Completely different thing,
It means if at some point they'd have to do a DT test, they pass automatically. They still have obviously taken it. No need to roll any dice though.

So by RAW, you're simply, obviously wrong.
And when one considers that in same Codex there is also C'Tan, which have been explicitly written to actually ignore difficult and dangerous terrain, it becomes obvious that the word choice of Wraithflight is deliberate. And yes, it does cause Wraiths to hit at I1 when they assualt through dangerous terrain (note dangerous, not difficult).

Also, consider this is exactly same as if one uses Brotherhood Banner to automatically activate GK NFW's. In your opinion, can that use of Psychic power be hooded?

Relevant rules quote from Hood: "Declare that you will use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24' of the Librarian passes a Psychic test."

snakel wrote:RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .

No - now you're starting to interpret. RAI arguments are different from RAW arguments. You're free to argue RAI but you really should say so.

What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

Moving through dangerous terrain you're forced to take a test.
Find the permission to not take the test.

Yes - you've automatically passed the test. Good for you.
But you have taken the test.

Or do Fearless units that are forced to take a Pinning test break the game? I brought it up earlier but you seemed to ignore it.

DeathReaper wrote:

snakel wrote:,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

That does not mean they didn't need to take the test.

They need to take the test.

They take the test by auto passing, so they do not have to roll for the test.

Then the rules for assaulting through Difficult terrain kink in.

When did i take the test ?
When did i roll the die ?

Until both of those are done I.E the time and the actual rolling to represent the test i have not taken a test .

You read that automatically passing a test means you took the test without actual taking the test ,i read that to take a test you must actual roll the dice otherwise no test was taken ,

RAW read differently

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

As someone who just learned how awesome wraiths are, i agree with the majority(?) here.

Wraith, passing through difficult on his merry way to assault, is free to do at init2.
Wraith, humdinging his way to assault through dangerous, attacks at init 1.

Dangerous is rare Like incredibad rare for the games ive played. Now, i have another question to ask...

Impassable terrain. Lets call it a flat topped building thats impassable, or even a rock that you could set a wraith or two on top of.
It is categorized as blos and impassable, but NOT as dangerous.
As jump infantry landing on top you are forced to take a Dangerous test. As a wraith you auto pass.

Now, what if you were to run? You run like infantry right? Do you take a dangerous test? Or are you free to run across and down the Impass terrain?
Same question for assaulting. If you are in range, and assuming not all of the wraiths are on the impass, does it count as dangerous, even though you assault like infantry?


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rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Rigeld2, I fail to see under the wraiths section something similar to this: Wraithflight: See Immune to natural law on page (so and so).

Dont you?

snakel wrote:RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .
What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

Normal reading comprehension is enough. Common sense assumption is when one is forced to take a test, one has to either 1) Pass it or 2) Fail it. Either way, you've made the test. Whether you automatically succeed, automatically fail or roll dice to see the result doesn't matter. You've taken the test either way.

snakel wrote:
What part or page states automatically passed tests are not taken ? none
So we fall back on how we read a rule to make our judgement ,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

Here you go wrong. Rolling dice is not required for having made a test. Think about it for a second. It would also mean that if test is automatically failed, it hasn't been taken either.

Your interpretation also means that you haven't made any CC attacks against Immobilized Vehicles in CC (those attacks auto-hit, and if you don't roll dice, they haven't made an attack).
Your position is not internally consistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Then every person that has ever played this game and not rolled the die even though they automatically pass a test has broken the rules

Assumption not fact

Your assuming the test was taken because you believe for a test to automatically be passed a test must have taken place but its clear unless i roll the die i did not take the test

Circles and round come to mind so i will leave now thanks

Basimpo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Rigeld2, I fail to see under the wraiths section something similar to this: Wraithflight: See Immune to natural law on page (so and so).

Dont you?

Right. You're forced to take the test. You just pass automatically.

That's my point.


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snakel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Then every person that has ever played this game and not rolled the die even though they automatically pass a test has broken the rules

Why are you equating rolling a die to taking the test?

Your assuming the test was taken because you believe for a test to automatically be passed a test must have taken place but its clear unless i roll the die i did not take the test

Where is it clear? For you to say that you obviously have rules support. Which I've asked for. Twice - three times now.
Please provide it.

Or to try again - how can you pass a test that never took place?

Rigeld2 wrote:Why are you equating rolling a die to taking the test?

This is the main issue at hand.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Snakel is saying that unless you roll the dice, you have not taken the Dangerous Terrain test.

Therefore for Snakel: Rolling the dice is necessary, and sufficient to taking the Dangerous Terrain test.

By that logic, it would also be true that
Rolling the dice is necessary and sufficient for hitting a target with a ranged weapon.
and
Rolling the dice is necessary, and sufficient, for hitting a target in melee combat.

Which would then mean that a DoG attack against a vehicle (since you "automatically hit" and no dice are ever rolled) would never result in the vehicle being struck by either a ranged or melee attack.

Rolling the dice is one way to take a Dangerous Terrain test. Auto-passing is the other way. Both result in taking the test and both have to abide by the associated rules (ie an initiative hit) unless specified otherwise.

DoW

If the unit took no test, then what did you auto- pass?

The fact that you auto-pass is proof that a test was taken...

The difference in wording between the C'Tan's rule and the Wraiths' rule is pretty telling.

For almost everyone.

Steelmage99 wrote:

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.

Ok I looked into the BRB in addition to the Necron codex. Wraiths ignore difficult terrain and strike at initiative if assaulting through difficult terrain as wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain. Dangerous terrain is a subset of difficult, HOWEVER, as stated on page 36 of the BRB paragraph 2 on ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER "To represent this, if an assualting unit had to take a difficult OR DANGEROUS terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, REGARDLESS of other initiative modifiers.

So in answer to the debate:

1. Wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed by it, therefore strike regularly.

2. Wraiths assaulting into dangerous automatically pass dangerous saves, but it is still considered a test. So yes, they are initiative 1 through dangerous. Wraiths are invulnerable, not invincible. They are immune to dangerous checks, however a check that is automatically passed is still a check.

3. Im done arguing, as I spent the past 20 minutes comparing the codex and BRB so Im done with this headache.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.

1. Wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed by it, therefore strike regularly.

2. Wraiths assaulting into dangerous automatically pass dangerous saves, but it is still considered a test. So yes, they are initiative 1 through dangerous. Wraiths are invulnerable, not invincible. They are immune to dangerous checks, however a check that is automatically passed is still a check.

3. Im done arguing, as I spent the past 20 minutes comparing the codex and BRB so Im done with this headache.

And we are in total agreement.

Kevin949 wrote:Of course, this all could be ambiguous writing for 5th but clearly defined in 6th. Don't know.

This is just another example of what they really need to improve in their subsequent rule editions, ie, ambiguous wording. There's a thread in the "general" forum about what changes 6th ed. needs to make, but they mostly treat individual balance or specific rule abuse issues. The blanket issue of overall clarity and disambiguation is imo much more important.

Kinda late to the party, but I'd like to chime in on the auto pass test part of this discussion.

Automatically passing, let's use an earlier example, a driving test, DOES mean you didn't have to actually take the test. However, when you use that driver's license that the state gives you assures whoever sees that license that you were qualified to pass the test and you will be treated JUST like you took the test. Just because you didn't take the test does not mean the test criteria were completely disregarded. It means you are a special snowflake and had to qualify on the same scale everyone else was graded on without the hassle of possibly failing. Automatically passing a dangerous terrain test would be the same thing as rolling for dangerous terrain with the exception that you only get the dangerous terrain check on the model if you roll a 7 or a 0 on a d6. It is an automatic pass, albeit a very unorthodox and not in the rules, but still.

A more in game example is an IG player with two astropaths (Take 2 Company Command Squads with an astropath) that state that you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls (pg. 31 IG codex). If it is turn 3 of the game and I am rolling for my reserves with which I will add 2 to the number rolled, I will automatically pass the test. While I understand that this isn't the same since the unit in question automatically passes by default, and mine is a combination of base rules and a special unit ability, I think they both lead to the same scenario. In both scenarios, neither of the rolls are "technically" required and thus both will automatically pass their tests, but both of the tests have occurred. If the test were to not have taken place, I believe it would have said ignore rather than automatically pass.

Norserune wrote: A more in game example is an IG player with two astropaths (Take 2 Company Command Squads with an astropath) that state that you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls (pg. 31 IG codex). If it is turn 3 of the game and I am rolling for my reserves with which I will add 2 to the number rolled, I will automatically pass the test.

Except this isn't true. IIRC the IG FAQ states that you specifically don't gain an additional benefit for having 2 Astropaths/MoTF. The result is only ever a +1/-1.

DoW

DoW, you are correct.

Better example would have been 2 Autarchs, since theirs do stack.