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Thats my question! If a unit of wraiths assault through terrain, do they attack at I1?

Not if assaulting through difficult, but yes if assaulting through dangerous.

That doesnt make sense...because...dangerous makes you roll for difficult, also they auto pass dangerous tests...

Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

As mentioned, only if assaulting through Dangerous Terrain. In order to not be reduced, Wraithflight would have to be worded similarly to the C'Tan's Immune to Natural Law rule.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

Not true. If they auto-pass the test they don't have to roll. See the brotherhood banner thread that's in the top 10 right now.

Whilst they don't have to roll, the fact they passed the test must first assume that the test was taken, and therefore reduces them to I1.

Fair enough - I misremembered the wording.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

So Spore Cloud (which causes a Dangerous Terrain test) is Difficult Terrain as well?
Please note, that Spore Cloud is not mentioned in the FAQ, it's Spre Cloud that is not terrain.

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

So Spore Cloud (which causes a Dangerous Terrain test) is Difficult Terrain as well?
Please note, that Spore Cloud is not mentioned in the FAQ, it's Spre Cloud that is not terrain.

No, Spore Cloud simply causes a Dangerous Terrain test - its not creating Dangerous Terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

Not true. If they auto-pass the test they don't have to roll. See the brotherhood banner thread that's in the top 10 right now.

This is still in contention thanks to the differing interpretations of the word automatically.

It's automatic, but the test was taken. Therefore they are reduced to I1. Taking a test causes them to be I1.

axeman1n wrote:It's automatic, but the test was taken. Therefore they are reduced to I1. Taking a test causes them to be I1.

Agreed. I misremembered and thought the rules said "if a die is rolled" which wouldn't happen with an automatic pass.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what about "never slowed by" necessarily means you don't have to take the difficult terrain test, couldn't it equally mean that you take the test but regardless of the result can move full speed?

This whole testing/auto-passing/ignoring really is a big can of worms once you open it.

As above. The rules tell us that if an assaulting unit takes a diffficult terrain test or dangerous terrain test in its assault move it strikes at I1. The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

That's not my recollection.

Mannahnin wrote:As above. The rules tell us that if an assaulting unit takes a difficult terrain test or dangerous terrain test in its assault move it strikes at I1. The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

Ignore=/=are never slowed by ie a unit that roles a 6 on difficult terrain weren't slowed by it but they still moved through it. any way since in both cases the rule does not say they ignore it but rather they auto pass/never slowed by it, that would seem to indicate that their initiative is reduced, other-wise why would it not just say they ignore the terrain entirely?

Mannahnin wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

That's not my recollection.

Page 13 BGB: Terrain Types

"There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable.

* Clear Terrain can be moved across without any penalty, and generally covers most of the battlefield.

*Difficult Terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it.

*Impassable Terrain cannot be moved across or into."

and then further down "Difficult terrain includes areas of ... If the terrain feature includes hazards such as ... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous terrain"

Neither 100% guarantees that all Dangerous Terrain must also be difficult, but they don't really talk about terrain being classed as dangerous outside of that context.

Ja; the possibility exists in the rules for dangerous terrain which isn't also difficult, but the examples in the rulebook are both.

NL-Cirrus- Their rule for difficult functionally does ignore it. If they're never slowed, there is no need to roll dice, and thus no test is being taken.

The direct implication of auto-passing the dangerous test, OTOH, is that they're still taking one.

Nice, I come back to defend my points and Mann and Avatar did it for me already

*Mental note - Next time don't try to simplify an explaination for the sake of brevity in YMDC

Mannahnin wrote:Ja; the possibility exists in the rules for dangerous terrain which isn't also difficult, but the examples in the rulebook are both.

Re-read P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

#1 There needs to be a difficult terrain feature.

#2 Said terrain feature "may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

All dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult.

Dangerous terrain is by definition also difficult.

Initiative is the "speed" at which your unit attacks. Reducing initiative is slowing the model. The adverse effect of difficult terrain is slowing the models movement and initiative. Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain and automatically pass the DT test.

Therefore wraiths are not reduced in initiative, or movement by dangerous terrain (which is considered difficult terrain) even if they take a DT test and automatically pass it.

That is not quite true ND.

P.36, Left Column, 2nd Graph states "if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test... their initiative value lowered to 1..."

Auto passing the test is not the same as not having to take the test.

They had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test and they auto-passed, thus they are reduced to I1

DeathReaper wrote:That is not quite true ND.

P.36, Left Column, 2nd Graph states "if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test... their initiative value lowered to 1..."

Auto passing the test is not the same as not having to take the test.

They had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test and they auto-passed, thus they are reduced to I1

My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

Nemesor Dave wrote:My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

"Slowing" in this context refers to their movement, not their initiative in CC.

Spetulhu wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

"Slowing" in this context refers to their movement, not their initiative in CC.

I completely disagree.

Disagree all you like, but the rules say they are dropped to I1, because they made a Dangerous terrain test (And auto-passed)

In Short:

Mannahnin wrote:The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

This.

DeathReaper wrote:slowed is fluff, and not actual rules.

so disagree all you like, but the rules say they are dropped to I1, because they made a Dangerous terrain test (And auto-passed)

So you're saying that the part "Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain," is fluff and does nothing?

So you're saying that the part "Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain," is fluff and does nothing?

it does plenty. Not having to roll for difficult for assault is a huge bonus already. You know how many failed charges I've done with GK/orks/daemons thanks to poor rolling? It's cost me games before not getting that charge in. It also makes you immune to tremor staffs which is quite handy in a necron v necron fight but does not stop you from getting to I1.

It's the same thing as GK banner as well since it assumes a test was taken at the very least, you can psy hood block or wolf talismen block the activation. If it's just "on" you may then argue that it doesn't work.

p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?