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Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.

Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).

You could just do two empires. One good and one evil. I wonder if that would work.

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.

Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).

C) has the added effect of taking away the most notable trait that sets the Tau faction apart from the other factions in the fluff. It is possible with A) for the Tau to be both Noblebright and Grimdark at the same time.

A) also is what gets people to actually talk about the Tau, preventing them from fading into obscurity.

Jefffar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.

Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).

C) has the added effect of taking away the most notable trait that sets the Tau faction apart from the other factions in the fluff. It is possible with A) for the Tau to be both Noblebright and Grimdark at the same time.

A/C it is then.

Why do you want the tau to be evil anyway?

nomotog wrote:Why do you want the tau to be evil anyway?

1) It doesn't match the setting.
2) The fluff doesn't make sense - an entire civilization turned 180-degrees simply because a space pope told them to work together? And you're not even suspicious. Among races with psychic potential, that reeks of sorcery and mind control. Since they don't have psychic powers, it's definitely not psychic or sorcery in nature - either pheromones or advanced technology or both.

I can't help feeling Tadashi that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

From some of your posts I get the impression that you are a lot younger than me, so you may not have heard of this race, Zhodani (Traveller/MegaTraveller). They were a race that believed in a form of the greater good, everyone had their place and were happy to be there. They used psionics to control minds, a caste system and a racial goal that did not involve genocide or subjugation of races as long as they submitted themselves to the 'rule' of the Zhodani and allied themselves to the goal. All their citizens were cared for, respected and had freedom within their role/society.

They were also considered one of the most authortarian societies in existence and quite evil.

However it was also pointed out that that viewpoint only existed outside their empire and that their citizens were the happiest and most content out of all the empires in the game universe.

So what I'm saying to you is that Tau aren't evil, your perception of the Tau makes them evil.

As for the setting, 40K is whatever GW wants it to be, your opinion (and mine for that matter) does not register on GWs radar. It's their trainset and what they say goes.

180 degrees, I ask this question of you, if someone came to the UN/G8/whatever global gathering and provided proof that there was other life in the universe and it was hostile to all life on earth, do you not think that there would be an end to the rivalries and the nations of the earth work together?

Now I know that that is a hypothesis, because it was never printed/decided/thought of what was said at the meeting to turn Tau society, but such a turn is not impossible without the use of some sort of mind control.

As for the fluff not making sense, I can think of two reasons. One not all info already written has been made available or, two GW applied its rigorous playtesting experience on writing rules to ensuring their background is coherent.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

180 degrees, I ask this question of you, if someone came to the UN/G8/whatever global gathering and provided proof that there was other life in the universe and it was hostile to all life on earth, do you not think that there would be an end to the rivalries and the nations of the earth work together?

Mass Effect backstory is basically that. And if your saying that Tau citizens are the happiest in the setting, then why did Farsight turn his back on them? The Commander had had enough of the lies - he didn't care whether or not the Ethereals could make everyone work together, the Tau had lost themselves in the process, just as the Eldar and the Dark Eldar have lost themselves, in the Paths and in decadence respectively. Only the Humans, the Necrons, the Orks, and the Tyranids are true to their nature. There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.

I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.

Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;

1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.

Pick your poison of choice.

Your last sentence is quite telling;

There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.

Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.

Just pointing it out.

Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;

1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.

Pick your poison of choice.

All of them.

Your last sentence is quite telling;

There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.

Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'

Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.

Never played Mass Effect so I honestly have no frame of reference. (Just consider me a grumpy old man)

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:Never played Mass Effect so I honestly have no frame of reference. (Just consider me a grumpy old man)

Cheers

Andrew

Tadashi wrote:

AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.

Just pointing it out.

Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;

1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.

Pick your poison of choice.

All of them.

Your last sentence is quite telling;

There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.

Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'

Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.

1, it says they died while facing an unknown enemy
2. Unlikely considering he still has followers, its not likey if he went insane so many would still follow him. They must agree that what is being done is for the greater good.
3. This most likely why he is disobeying orders, yes.

It is possible that GW is working the misunderstood hero angle with Farsight. I think its possible that he knew a series of fortified worlds was needed on the border, that it was forbidden but the threat was so great it had to be done, so he broke off contact with the empire and set about doing was needed. He has not turned his back on the empire, but for the greater good disobeyed orders and sacrificed his reputation to do it. It fits with the putting the "us" before "I" that the Tau are just better at than humans. I believe the reson he does not have vespids and kroot with him is because they were not part of his forces to begin with.
I am curious about Aun-shi's expedetion to the Farsight enclaves and what that will bring to the story line. Aun'shi if you have not heard of him , is a ethereal who is a hero to the Vior'la sept Farsight is from. And his story line does not make him out to be sinister in the least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi
I think Aun'shi and Farsight would be awesome together.

Tun_Tau wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.

Just pointing it out.

Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;

1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.

Pick your poison of choice.

All of them.

Your last sentence is quite telling;

There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.

Like batman and robin...or better et batman and batman

Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'

Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.

1, it says they died while facing an unknown enemy
2. Unlikely considering he still has followers, its not likey if he went insane so many would still follow him. They must agree that what is being done is for the greater good.
3. This most likely why he is disobeying orders, yes.

It is possible that GW is working the misunderstood hero angle with Farsight. I think its possible that he knew a series of fortified worlds was needed on the border, that it was forbidden but the threat was so great it had to be done, so he broke off contact with the empire and set about doing was needed. He has not turned his back on the empire, but for the greater good disobeyed orders and sacrificed his reputation to do it. It fits with the putting the "us" before "I" that the Tau are just better at than humans. I believe the reson he does not have vespids and kroot with him is because they were not part of his forces to begin with.
I am curious about Aun-shi's expedetion to the Farsight enclaves and what that will bring to the story line. Aun'shi if you have not heard of him , is a ethereal who is a hero to the Vior'la sept Farsight is from. And his story line does not make him out to be sinister in the least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi
I think Aun'shi and Farsight would be awesome together.