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There's a lot of them, and they range from the incredibly simple, to the most over complicated stories in 40k fluff speculation. So, keeping in mind that it is only that, SPECULATION, what are the beliefs held by you members of dakkadakka? after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up. I'm looking for any and all ideas, concepts, stories, whatever you'v got to contribute. Lets see whats out there

blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.

Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.

The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.

Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.

The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.

Uh, what?

Anyways. The contradictions between the "original vision" and the "expanded vision" stems from the fact that Andy Hoare is a well-known Tau fan, and is responsible for the majority of fluff on them outside of the Codex. He's very much opposed to the idea of them being anything but "superclean great guys!", from everything I've seen.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.

Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.

The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.

I don't think that is what the OP is referring to. I think they are referring to the number of times the tau should have been killed off and how they keep going because of luck or a conspiracy. They just catch a lot of brakes.

Kanluwen wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.

Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.

The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.

Uh, what?

Anyways. The contradictions between the "original vision" and the "expanded vision" stems from the fact that Andy Hoare is a well-known Tau fan, and is responsible for the majority of fluff on them outside of the Codex. He's very much opposed to the idea of them being anything but "superclean great guys!", from everything I've seen.

Oh its not just Hoare.

Do you have a copy of White Dwarf 262 ? It has an interview with Andy Chambers commenting on the origins of the Tau - not the in-game origins but the "How we came about making the faction in the first place." With Graham Mcneill writing the fluff to boot.

The Tau fans loved it - still love it in fact and generally uphold that vision.

The rest of us...well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.

The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.

I don't think that is what the OP is referring to. I think they are referring to the number of times the tau should have been killed off and how they keep going because of luck or a conspiracy. They just catch a lot of brakes.

I heard that the Emperor may have caused the Warp storm so that one day humanity would be warp-free, but I cant say i believe it.

There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.

I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.

Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.

I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.

The basis for the pheromone theory is probably the Xenology book, which explicitly says that it is the case.

Fetterkey wrote:

Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.

I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.

The basis for the pheromone theory is probably the Xenology book, which explicitly says that it is the case.

Ok. I just couldn't remember. Some would argue that its rubbish anyway but it shouldn't be ignored.

I am a fan of the idea that the Tau were created or modified to be a counter to Chaos. It makes sense to me and the grimmer hints in the Codex and some fluff make me think that the Greater Good is more about Order than Good so they are a logical balance to Chaos too.

The next question is who uplifted the Tau?

I like the theory that the Covenant did it after the failure of the Horus Heresey to do what they wanted. The idea that it was the Emperor is interesting but I have a big issue with it simply because as long as humanity exists, especially when they are on the verge of another evolutionary jump as indicated in the big rule book, Chaos will feed off of them. I doubt the Emperor approved a plan that requires humanity to be exterminated.

Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.

I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.

Which is contradicted by their own fluff.

Till the Etherials came along(to the second) the Tau were hellbent on wiping each other out. Then the space popes came and suddenly everyone was happy and brofisting for the Greater Good.

Seems like pretty standard Sci-fi Mind Control to me.

Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.

That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.

The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.

Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.

That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.

The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.

Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."

While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.

But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.

And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.

Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason

[quote=ArbitorIanWhile I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.

But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.

And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.

ArbitorIan wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.

That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.

The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.

Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."

While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.

But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.

And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.

Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason

Are we sure that they are sticking to canon? I figured they added that second empire just so they could model the tau how they wanted without being bound by their canon.

Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.

But the fact of the matter is, if you do any, I mean even the slightest bit of contextual analysis, close reading, and deductive reasoning with the tau fluff, you realize a few things:

A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.

B: The Ethereals are controlling the Tau in some manner. Xenology suggests pheromones, but it was just a guess. But there's no question that something about the Ethereals has a tangible calming effect of the Tau, especially the Fire caste. When Farsight calmed down after running out of Ethereals, he took off, never to return. There are several theories about why, but ultimately, nobody from the Farsight Enclave has come back to re-join.

C: The Greater Good is a sham. It's a pervasive and comprehensive propaganda tool of the Ethereals. While on the surface the Tau are a bit less oppressive and far less grimdark or dystopic than the Imperium, they are still an aggressively expansionist empire that doesn't take no for an answer. The idea of The Greater Good only includes the greater good of the Tau. How you become part of the Tau... different story. The Greater Good is just concentrated, fierce nationalism based on the deception of a utilitarian philosophy enforced through constant brainwashing and social conditioning. While the average Tau probably believes in The Greater Good, and is probably not inherently evil, The Greater Good itself isn't "good" by any definition. It's simply an adapted, less overt, practical, interstellar policy given the shape and nature of the 40K universe.

In short, the Tau are a highly conditioned, socially programmed and socially engineered expansionist race with a pervasive level of social control that rivals the Imperium, only just more sophisticated.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.

That pretty much says it all.

The Tau were originally invented to "open up" a new market amongst players who didn't have an affinity toward any of the other factions in WH40K.

Heck - even today, like the present point in time, when a new person is introduced to Warhammer 40K's factions look how GW store employees describe the Tau to those new players.

IE: What is the marketing pitch? How do they sell the Tau?

It may not always be "Happy Utopian Space People" (although i've borne witness to a number of those sales pitches) but it ain't Orwell either.

as the old saying goes..

We are a minatures company. Not a gaming company.

Pursuit of _$$$$$_ and protection of the IP trumps all other concerns.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.

But the fact of the matter is, if you do any, I mean even the slightest bit of contextual analysis, close reading, and deductive reasoning with the tau fluff, you realize a few things:

A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.

B: The Ethereals are controlling the Tau in some manner. Xenology suggests pheromones, but it was just a guess. But there's no question that something about the Ethereals has a tangible calming effect of the Tau, especially the Fire caste. When Farsight calmed down after running out of Ethereals, he took off, never to return. There are several theories about why, but ultimately, nobody from the Farsight Enclave has come back to re-join.

C: The Greater Good is a sham. It's a pervasive and comprehensive propaganda tool of the Ethereals. While on the surface the Tau are a bit less oppressive and far less grimdark or dystopic than the Imperium, they are still an aggressively expansionist empire that doesn't take no for an answer. The idea of The Greater Good only includes the greater good of the Tau. How you become part of the Tau... different story. The Greater Good is just concentrated, fierce nationalism based on the deception of a utilitarian philosophy enforced through constant brainwashing and social conditioning. While the average Tau probably believes in The Greater Good, and is probably not inherently evil, The Greater Good itself isn't "good" by any definition. It's simply an adapted, less overt, practical, interstellar policy given the shape and nature of the 40K universe.

In short, the Tau are a highly conditioned, socially programmed and socially engineered expansionist race with a pervasive level of social control that rivals the Imperium, only just more sophisticated.

I agree with you on every point but A. I've seen people argue that the Tau are "loosely but identifiably" based on a number of sources. (Including Alan Dean Foster's races of the Purpose from The Damned trilogy.) I think that a number of sources may have influenced the creation of the Tau, and that the idea of 'multiple racial groups under a sinister influence but appearing outwardly unified' is a pervasive science fiction concept that is apparent in a number of possible influencing sources.

I do agree with you, however, that while the backstory in the Codexes does not ever outright say that the lesser Tau and their subject races are mind-controlled (through genetic manipulation, social engineering, brainwashing, pheremonal controls, subliminal suggestion, or a combination of all of the above) it spells it out pretty implicitly. I think it only takes a modicum of reading between the lines to get that impression, but that's just my opinion.

As to my own speculative conspiracy theories: I also think that the brainwashing of the Tau has gone to such an extreme that like the subject races of the Amplitur in the aforementioned Foster series, the lesser Tau are no longer wholly sentient, merely sophisticated animals beholden to the Ethereals. Only absent that control can they regain any kind of individual mindset, which to them would be like a coma patient waking up for the first time. (Which is what happened to Farsight.)

Those are just my opinions, of course. No two people seem to completely agree on this issue.

Jimsolo wrote:
I do agree with you, however, that while the backstory in the Codexes does not ever outright say that the lesser Tau and their subject races are mind-controlled (through genetic manipulation, social engineering, brainwashing, pheremonal controls, subliminal suggestion, or a combination of all of the above) it spells it out pretty implicitly. I think it only takes a modicum of reading between the lines to get that impression, but that's just my opinion.

I don't even think you need to read too far in between the lines to pull out the fact that they are implying some sort of social engineering (regardless of the manner of the it is accomplished).

The problem that ultimately arises is who is this directed toward?

We already know it isn't the average Tau Player. The fanion has arrived at a consensus viewpoint of the Tau that cleaves strongly toward Chambers/McNeill/Hoare's work.

And ultimately they are the ones who "pay the bills" so to speak for that line to continue.

So if its not them.......

Jimsolo wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.

I agree with you on every point but A. I've seen people argue that the Tau are "loosely but identifiably" based on a number of sources. (Including Alan Dean Foster's races of the Purpose from The Damned trilogy.) I think that a number of sources may have influenced the creation of the Tau, and that the idea of 'multiple racial groups under a sinister influence but appearing outwardly unified' is a pervasive science fiction concept that is apparent in a number of possible influencing sources.

It's entirely possible. But it may be important to note that Huxley's book was published in 1932 and is an essential classic in English language literature, so if there are similarities between the Tau caste structure and other books, it's probably a fair bet that those books were also influenced by Brave New World lol.

nomotog wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.

That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.

The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.

Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."

While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.

But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.

And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.

Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason

Are we sure that they are sticking to canon? I figured they added that second empire just so they could model the tau how they wanted without being bound by their canon.

No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually. I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.

But on topic, every cannon conspiracy theory is in the current codex, and if you havn't read the back story in the codex then you have no business arguing one way or the other on them imo. As to the conspiracy theories validity or not? The codex and information that we have on the tau are from the biased opinion of the Imperium. So of course they are going to have some grimdark conspiracies that make them seem not so perfect to the Imperial citizens. Its a tactic that has been used in humanities history. The Germans and many other nations did it to the jews, and the americans to the japanese. In the codex it explicitly states that there is no evidence to back up any of the conspiracy theories, something I found very strange imo, but at least they were honest. I don't think their lack of grimdarkness makes them out of place in the universe at all, or boring. Boring would be having every race exactly the same. The non dark Eldar arn;t really that grim dark at all either, but people seem to forget that. If anything I just think it makes the universe as a whole more interesting and 3-D

darkcloud92 wrote:No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually.

Well the broader matter of FFG's material being "canonical" or not is a bit tricky - esp. since GW has rejected the notion of canon time and time again.

I think the more appropriate way of phrasing it would be - "Do the RPG books have the same type of "weight" in terms of fluff/fiction that one could ascribe to a codex or a fictional work from BL?"

The answer seems to be no....except (oh come on you knew this was coming folks ).....

Unless Kurgan (from the Bolter & Chainsword group who got to playtest GW and actually have a chat with the designers) was lying, they were explicitly told that FFG's RPG "wasn't canonical unless GW said so".

And the Tap Dance continues.

This is further complicated by the fact that some of the original GW staff have worked on FFG products. So when someone like Andy Hoare decides to write up a book on say the Sisters of Battle (which he did a lot of work on while with GW) - the folks who are fans of SoB are more than likely to accept his views as being "canonical."

I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.

It comes right down to the, shall we say inherent contradiction that others feel about the inclusion of the Tau in 40K. Or at least their initial rendition.

As i'm sure you've seen (assuming you are a Tau fan), there have been a number of attempts to incorporate a more Grimdark flavor to your faction....followed by a subsequent pushback by your own community.

So, we have "Track 2" strategy - which Veteran has outlined above......

..which your community has also rejected...

To be absolutely frank and cynical about this - i wonder exactly who "Track 2" was made for. It obviously not you folks - nor do I think GW's out to "convert" the Tau player base to a certain viewpoint.

They make a product which you as a consumer are already excited about. Altering the "formula" if you will would be risky.

So i'm forced to conclude that "Track 2" was meant to buy us off - us being the NonTau players.

To buy our complicity essentially, so we could argue in open forum that the Tau players are deluded.

And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.

darkcloud92 wrote: The non dark Eldar arn;t really that grim dark at all either, but people seem to forget that.

A once proud race, which unleashed a dark god because of their arrogance and excess, was slaughtered by it, and are now slowly dying out... isn't grimdark?

No wonder Tau players are so confused. You guys don't even know what the idea of grimdark is. The Imperial Fists can't be grimdark either. I mean, what kind of dark color is yellow?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.

Exactly. The material is there. Read the Imperial Armor book with the Tau. In that story, the Tau show up, with the clear intention of subverting the government of Taros. They manipulate the governor so they slowly subvert him and his government, knowing that once the Imperium found out, the governor would have no choice but to turn to them for help. The Tau brought war and ruin to Taros intentionally "for the Greater Good".

These aren't good guys. But as long as GW can keep it ambiguous, and not admit it, they can also pretend the opposite by writing the Tau codex books from the "Tau point of view". The lack of appreciation and understanding of context is no surprise though. Look how badly misunderstood Codex: Space Marines and the fluff about the Ultramarines is.

I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.

Anyone ever heard the Horus on the Golden Throne one?

Fralethepalewhale wrote:I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.

The Brave New World is about western culture and I do not imagine the tau running around worrying about fashion, soma and praising the greater ford. Now get back to painting your minatures delta and rest your head.

Haha I talked about the Caste system and how they were not equal. And the Alphas controlled everything (Ethereal). I also talked about the people who weren't cloned (Kroot, Vespid, Gue'Vasa...spelling?) were not treated as equal. Along with a few of the lower members in the caste system.

I can't paint for crap, that's why I have epsilons like YOU do it for me

We have the caste system he talked about. Its based on quality and level of education. (i.e. conditioning )
I view the tau caste system as being of a more pragmatic division of labor and of also having an equality between them that is missing in Brave New World.

But back to the subject.
My favorite line of tau conspiracy theories is on the farsight enclaves . I can't wait to see what comes out next about it.

DoctorZombie wrote:Anyone ever heard the Horus on the Golden Throne one?

That has nothing to do with the Tau, the Tau had barely stood upright when the HH was in full swing.

O, and thats HERESY!!!