Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I honestly don't think there is a whole lot of eqaulity between the castes but that is strictly IMO. To each his own.

I second the Farsight stuff. I wanna see what happens to him.

To make a whole new conspiracy I think that Shadowsun is a robot. Think she wasn't really heard about until after Farsight left and then after Farsight left she just HAPPENED to become the next big thing at the proper time? Hmmmm fishy. The Ethereal's did it as a propaganda tool.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually.

Well the broader matter of FFG's material being "canonical" or not is a bit tricky - esp. since GW has rejected the notion of canon time and time again.

I think the more appropriate way of phrasing it would be - "Do the RPG books have the same type of "weight" in terms of fluff/fiction that one could ascribe to a codex or a fictional work from BL?"

The answer seems to be no....except (oh come on you knew this was coming folks ).....

Unless Kurgan (from the Bolter & Chainsword group who got to playtest GW and actually have a chat with the designers) was lying, they were explicitly told that FFG's RPG "wasn't canonical unless GW said so".

And the Tap Dance continues.

This is further complicated by the fact that some of the original GW staff have worked on FFG products. So when someone like Andy Hoare decides to write up a book on say the Sisters of Battle (which he did a lot of work on while with GW) - the folks who are fans of SoB are more than likely to accept his views as being "canonical."

I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.

It comes right down to the, shall we say inherent contradiction that others feel about the inclusion of the Tau in 40K. Or at least their initial rendition.

As i'm sure you've seen (assuming you are a Tau fan), there have been a number of attempts to incorporate a more Grimdark flavor to your faction....followed by a subsequent pushback by your own community.

So, we have "Track 2" strategy - which Veteran has outlined above......

..which your community has also rejected...

To be absolutely frank and cynical about this - i wonder exactly who "Track 2" was made for. It obviously not you folks - nor do I think GW's out to "convert" the Tau player base to a certain viewpoint.

They make a product which you as a consumer are already excited about. Altering the "formula" if you will would be risky.

So i'm forced to conclude that "Track 2" was meant to buy us off - us being the NonTau players.

To buy our complicity essentially, so we could argue in open forum that the Tau players are deluded.

And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.

ya that's how every forum debate ends, no one wins.lol I have no problem with Tau being more darker, but they certainly don't have to be just to suit tau haters fancy. I do not find their lack of grim darkness as misplacement, as I stated before. The eldar arn't that grim dark either. If anything the fact that the tau are not super dark is their whole lore and what makes them interesting and unique. It would be like me whining about Space Marines power armor, or the grey knights being incurruptable

darkcloud92 wrote:
No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually. I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.

But on topic, every cannon conspiracy theory is in the current codex, and if you havn't read the back story in the codex then you have no business arguing one way or the other on them imo. As to the conspiracy theories validity or not? The codex and information that we have on the tau are from the biased opinion of the Imperium.

Someone has already brought up the age old 'There is no canon in 40k' line. I believe it still stands.

My point wasn't that the Codex is more or less 'canon' than anything else. It was more to do with the timing.

The Tau Codex, which is very good-guys in tone, is rather old now, and written at a time when there wasn't that much Tau fluff around. It's also a 4ed Codex, which is written from a more out-of-game, objective point of view, unlike the 3ed Codexes, which were very in-game, Imperial point of view. There is no evidence that the whole 4ed Codex is written completely from the Tau or Imperial point of view.

Since the release of the 4ed Tau Codex, much more fluff has been written about the Tau, either from GW or from licensed sources that GW is known to vet. Since almost all this fluff seems to be 'darkening' the Tau, I think we can safely assume that the next Tau codex is going to be more dark.

Of course, everything will always be rumours in 40k - they never admit anything one was or the other, and 'anything is possible', because it leaves the world more open to customisation by players...

Fralethepalewhale wrote:I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.

The comparison to Brave New World is pretty obvious and common.

In fact, I already brought it up in this thread...

Really? I honestly hadn't really heard of it until I made the thread. Where else did you read it?!

Um, I've read the book, and I've said it countless times before. But it seems to come up in every Tau thread.

It's fairly obvious BNW is the main inspiration for the Tau. Given how derivative everything else in 40K, and on purpose, it's no surprise though.

Ohhhhh I thought you were saying that you read the BNW idea in another thread before. Nevermind!

I thought the main inspiration for the Tau came from eastern Asian culture? Considering the FW's look a lot like samurai, and the whole "anime army" stereotype

The army was styled to look like the various "mecha" cartoons from Japan, sure. The back story has almost nothing to do with eastern Asia though. They look like Mecha because that was one of the few demographics that 40K hadn't hooked yet. The styling of the army was just carefully chosen as a marketing ploy. Asian culture has nothing to do with the Tau, really. Some people like to draw the caste parallels, but honestly, there's little about the Tau that's more feudal Japanese or Chinese than it is to feudal Europe.

The whole samurai look thing is very easy to pick up on though, and again, though, it was probably just a styling decision to appeal to that demographic since after the looks, there's not much about the way the Fire Caste acts that is reminiscent of samurai.

Hey " Brave New World" has a caste system and Tau have a caste system so they must be the same!
is kind of a shallow comparision. What besides that do you see in Tau fluff?
Look up Utilitarianism. Tau are more John Stuart Mill than Aldous Huxley.

Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:

Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.

Extensive social engineering? Check.

Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.

A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.

Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.


There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.

Tun_Tau wrote:Hey " Brave New World" has a caste system and Tau have a caste system so they must be the same!
is kind of a shallow comparision. What besides that do you see in Tau fluff?
Look up Utilitarianism. Tau are more John Stuart Mill than Aldous Huxley.

Technologically advanced...classically conditioned...some despair between the castes...equal castes (but not really) one caste that rules the other castes...not allowed to interbreed...a almost type of invisible mind control or just manipulation of the populace. Among other things, go easy bud, fighting on the internet is like earning the title biggest loser. I mean yeah you won the title but its still for biggest loser. Chill brotha man

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:

Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.

Extensive social engineering? Check.

Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.

A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.

Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.


There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.

Where do you get your information on the tau?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:

Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.

Extensive social engineering? Check.

Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.

A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.

Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.


There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.

1. You described any caste system. And yes they both have that.
2. On one hand you have BNW's self medicating population or on the other musings of Imperial officials
3. Only evidence in 40k of extensive propaganda is by the Imperium of Man.
4. Yes they both have that and every other faction in 40k, and as far as I know the Tau are the only faction trying to resolve it through diplomancy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi

In the Tau fluff the society is built around positive goals rather than negative prohibitions and working as a cohesive society based off of concern for the greater good . There is no evidence they are not concerned about the best overall life for everyone.I think what your describing is the Imperium of Man.

If I had to make a point for your comparision it would be how they treated the dissidents in brave new world, that is rather Tau like.

I don't believe having an opinion is being arrogant. At the very worst it makes me opinionated. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was not willing to listen to your point of view.

Idk im kinda not to big on the whole BNW and Tau connection. Did the makers say that was their main bases? B/c although they are similar in your bullet points, thats about as far as the similarities go. It is much more coincidence imo. Like play around with numbers long enough and you can find any kinda correlation you want. Take any current sci series, movie, etc. and you can be sure that there is something further back that is similar that has no relation at all. The Tau society is much different when you look at it, even in your bullet points.

Pills from BNW and whatever motivates the Tau to enjoy their new society are two completely different things for all we know. There is no reason that it couldn't be that the Tau simply enjoy their new way of life and willing choose to belong to it. Farsight didn't like it, so he flew off to start his own shoot off.

The outfringes of the BNW society and the tau's allies? Totally different. Their entirely new species and societies that were already formed when the Tau met them. The outlands in BNW were formed by people who rejected the society and chose to live outside it.

So outlandish claims like Tau are BNW, Tau are Communism are really just theories. I mean hey the Imperium is BNW by that logic, by all the points listed above.

Pills=Propoganda/God Emperor? Check
Outlands=Rebel human planets? Check
Extensive Social Engineering? Check
A caste system where people are physilogically tailored to their specific job and pretty much forbidden to intermix? Check (Space marine, Hab workers, Adeptus Machinus, need I go on?)
Subtle Social Control? Well is sure as hell aint subtle in either case so check

Now lets compare Harry Potter to the Eldar and MLP to the tyranids, and on and on and on. So like I said interesting theory, but flawed and certainly not beyond a doubt truth

See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.

They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.

Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.

The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.

And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.

I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug

I think the nitpicking is all in good fun. Or I could be very mistaken. Who knows.

Yeah I mean I wouldn't think that GW would be sold bold as to copy BNW. I mean they aren't creative enough to make something completely new. But not dumb enough to steal someone else's stuff.

But honestly who cares if it is about Brave New World or not? Isn't this thread about conspiracy theories? I probably shouldn't have brought it up. But I don't want this thread to get closed I just want to see some of the other Tau conspiracy's and stuff.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.

They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.

Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.

The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.

And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.

I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug

You should get a refund on your extensive education.

It's served me fairly well so far. Get paid well. Get to make fun of people like you.

The connections between Tau and BNW are obvious and apparent to everyone.

Or so I thought. Clearly people can't read, or at least understand ideas.

Oh, and whomever said that the Tau were Utilitarian needs to re-read Mill. The Tau Empire does not generate Hedons nor does it even redistribute them. It merely ensures the most efficient use of resources, including manpower, in the same manner as the early Soviet Union (I.e. significant social engineering).

Brave New World and other dystopian fiction definitely plays an inspirational role in the entire WH40K universe. Certain elements appearing more heavily in one faction or another. To cite a single work as the sole (or even primary) inspiration for a particular faction is problematic due to the heavy bleed over.

I rather enjoy the way the Tau codex has been set up. it contains all the elements necessary for one to believe that the Tau are a faction of idealistic do-gooders lead by the wise counsel of the Ethereals. At the same time it gives you all the seeds to believe they are a dystopic society along the likes of Brave New World, 1984 or Equilibrium. A cult-like group that follows the dictates of the Ethereals, expanding their influence by conquest and conversion throughout sector.

Most of the recent fluff products seem to be running with the latter scenario exclusively, which disappoints me because the Tau Empire is so much richer if they seem both good and heinous at the same time.

I personally like the idea that another faction may have been behind the rise of the Tau. I especially liek the idea that it isn't a directly playable faction, but instead is something like the Covenant, a faction made up of an alliance of diverse races but not wholly representing any one race. Because of that you ma see the Eldar occasionally assisting the Tau while at other times giving them a good stomping to remind them of thier place. Certain Imperium factions may also lend their support to the Tau from time to time.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.

They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.

Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.

The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.

And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.

I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug

well you have clearly shown you know about both more than me, an your opinion is undoubtedly law. But there is no reasoning with either side, its an online forum lolz

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.

They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.

Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.

The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.

And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.

I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug

No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.

nomotog wrote:

No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.

Actually, even if he is using BNW to fill in the gaps, just by reading in between the lines of the Tau fluff, it's implied that everything he said is true.

The Tau Caste System and Social Engineering
- Supposed to be equal, huh? That's untrue. Who monopolizes the government, the Ethereal Caste. Who monopolizes trade, the Water Caste. Who monopolizes the military, the Fire Caste. Who monopolizes real estate, the Earth Caste. Who monopolizes the aerospace industry, the Air Caste. Basically, each caste is tailored to control one aspect of society, to the point that non-caste members or non-Tau can't enter or achieve high positions in said areas. If a Ethereal wants to be farmer, he can't. His caste basically forces him to be a politician. Gue'vasa/Kroot/Vespid may govern their worlds, but they have absolutely no chance of entering the higher levels of Tau government simply because it's under Ethereal monopoly. Same with the military - Fire Caste Commanders are ultimately the ones in charge. Equal, huh? Untrue.

United Population under Propaganda
- less propaganda and more mind control. When the first Ethereals appeared, everyone suddenly made a 180-degree turn in personality. Even lowly hab-workers would raise their eyebrows at such a drastic change. Vespid Translation Helms? I'm pretty sure I've watched at least one anime series where electrical pulses are used to control cognitive functions, and that same thing is used in The Terminal Man.

The Greater Good is BS
- at first glance it looks good, right? Wrong. It makes the Tau look like hypocrites. When you ask Imperials about the HUGE sacrifices made by the Imperium, the answer basically boils down to 'Innocents die so Humanity can live.' When Eldar are asked the same question, the answer boils down to 'What are Human worlds compared to Eldar Craftworlds?' When you ask Tau the same question, they will answer 'It's for the Greater Good.' And they have the gall to call themselves benevolent. Imperials and Eldar are honest - they know what they do isn't 'good', so they have a grey and black mentality, where they're in the grey and their enemies are black. Tau keep a black and white mentality where they're in the white and everyone else is in the black. Farsight is more honest. He should just come back and slaughter all the Ethereals, starting with that annoying Space Pope. Not to mention that the Greater Good is only meant to benefit the Tau. The Gue'vasa are just 'helpers', and hasn't anyone noticed that the Tau do nothing to rectify the fact that the Gue'vasa will be the first to be crushed by an Imperial Crusade? They're a buffer, and the Tau know it. Greater Good, huh? And the Tau look down on the Kroot even if they're supposed to be equal under the Greater Good. Hypocrites...

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:

No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.

Actually, even if he is using BNW to fill in the gaps, just by reading in between the lines of the Tau fluff, it's implied that everything he said is true.

The Tau Caste System and Social Engineering
- Supposed to be equal, huh? That's untrue. Who monopolizes the government, the Ethereal Caste. Who monopolizes trade, the Water Caste. Who monopolizes the military, the Fire Caste. Who monopolizes real estate, the Earth Caste. Who monopolizes the aerospace industry, the Air Caste. Basically, each caste is tailored to control one aspect of society, to the point that non-caste members or non-Tau can't enter or achieve high positions in said areas. If a Ethereal wants to be farmer, he can't. His caste basically forces him to be a politician. Gue'vasa/Kroot/Vespid may govern their worlds, but they have absolutely no chance of entering the higher levels of Tau government simply because it's under Ethereal monopoly. Same with the military - Fire Caste Commanders are ultimately the ones in charge. Equal, huh? Untrue.

United Population under Propaganda
- less propaganda and more mind control. When the first Ethereals appeared, everyone suddenly made a 180-degree turn in personality. Even lowly hab-workers would raise their eyebrows at such a drastic change. Vespid Translation Helms? I'm pretty sure I've watched at least one anime series where electrical pulses are used to control cognitive functions, and that same thing is used in The Terminal Man.

The Greater Good is BS
- at first glance it looks good, right? Wrong. It makes the Tau look like hypocrites. When you ask Imperials about the HUGE sacrifices made by the Imperium, the answer basically boils down to 'Innocents die so Humanity can live.' When Eldar are asked the same question, the answer boils down to 'What are Human worlds compared to Eldar Craftworlds?' When you ask Tau the same question, they will answer 'It's for the Greater Good.' And they have the gall to call themselves benevolent. Imperials and Eldar are honest - they know what they do isn't 'good', so they have a grey and black mentality, where they're in the grey and their enemies are black. Tau keep a black and white mentality where they're in the white and everyone else is in the black. Farsight is more honest. He should just come back and slaughter all the Ethereals, starting with that annoying Space Pope. Not to mention that the Greater Good is only meant to benefit the Tau. The Gue'vasa are just 'helpers', and hasn't anyone noticed that the Tau do nothing to rectify the fact that the Gue'vasa will be the first to be crushed by an Imperial Crusade? They're a buffer, and the Tau know it. Greater Good, huh? And the Tau look down on the Kroot even if they're supposed to be equal under the Greater Good. Hypocrites...

its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.

darkcloud92 wrote:


its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.

I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by:

partially b.c it wouldn't make sense

Tadashi wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:


its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.

I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by:

partially b.c it wouldn't make sense

Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth

darkcloud92 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:


its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.

I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by:

partially b.c it wouldn't make sense

Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth

I can accept that. Knowing Ward though, when 6th Edition comes out, torches will be burning across Dakka, not to mention other boards.

I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth

Well, this is certainly something new. This is the first time I've had a discussion with a reasonable Tau fan whose responses don't boil down to 'railguns own everything' and 'Tau will rule the galaxy'.

nomotog wrote:No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.

Not all propaganda has to be blatantly obvious, ominous posters on a wall somewhere. The whole idea of The Greater Good is propaganda, and it is ubiquitous and pervasive in Tau culture. I think your disconnect is that you don't fully understand the concept of propaganda and how it works. Propaganda is simply ideas presented in a format intended to influence a larger community or group towards a desired way of thinking.

As far as the rest of it, the Tau codex actually uses the words "genetic engineering"(p 8) and "selective breeding" (p 9) to describe how they forbid the intermixing of the castes in order to preserve the carefully chosen genetic traits of the different castes. It's not exactly test tube babies like BNW, and more like how we've bred dogs, or livestock, but the same core idea. So the caste concept is identical in that it involves carefully bred populations specifically designed to excel at their given task. The fluff bit on p 20 says that synthetic proteins and amino acids present suggests that the focused breeding programs of the Tau is what created the caste sub species.

Tadashi wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:


its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.

I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by:

partially b.c it wouldn't make sense

Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth

I can accept that. Knowing Ward though, when 6th Edition comes out, torches will be burning across Dakka, not to mention other boards.

I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth

Well, this is certainly something new. This is the first time I've had a discussion with a reasonable Tau fan whose responses don't boil down to 'railguns own everything' and 'Tau will rule the galaxy'.

but railguns and the tau do rule the galaxy. You've just been mind controlled by the ethreals into believing they don't and that they suck- Keanu Reeves

darkcloud92 wrote:

but railguns and the tau do rule the galaxy. You've just been mind controlled by the ethreals into believing they don't and that they suck- Keanu Reeves

Not if they're up against 1000 Astartes, 10,000,000 Guardsmen, 1000 Starships, and 1 whole Titan Legion, they won't.