Eldar and the Imperium

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**Tadashi**

Roadkill Zombie wrote:I think that's for another thread.

And I have absolutely no idea it would be about. Old One-Necron arms race? I'll be the laughingstock of the whole forum.

**dajobe**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

lol, i started that thread because of this one, kind of OT, but oh well

**DOOMBREAD**

Imperium: Eldar are vile Xenos! Destroy them, unless an alliance is absolutely necessary!

Eldar: It varies.Some think they are so inferior that they must be wiped out. Others think that humans are foolish yet are so powerful that they are too dangerous to live. Others really don't care about humans.

**SagesStone**

Tadashi wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....

Except fluff-wise, Necrons came before the Eldar. Looks like the Old Ones took a leaf out of the Necrons and the Ctan's book by giving the Eldar access to Wraithbone (Necrodermis), the Webway (Inertia-less Drives), and psychic mastery (scientific and technological supremacy).

Though later in the current Daemon codex it gives credit to the Eldar for the creation of the Webway now... Unless that already changed again...
It seems they like to mess around with the background from then.

**Tadashi**

n0t_u wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....

Except fluff-wise, Necrons came before the Eldar. Looks like the Old Ones took a leaf out of the Necrons and the Ctan's book by giving the Eldar access to Wraithbone (Necrodermis), the Webway (Inertia-less Drives), and psychic mastery (scientific and technological supremacy).

Though later in the current Daemon codex it gives credit to the Eldar for the creation of the Webway now... Unless that already changed again...
It seems they like to mess around with the background from then.

I've always interpreted it as the Old Ones building the original Webway, but it was the Eldar who made it as it is now. As for the difference between the Eldar and Old One-versions, I have no idea. The Imperial version probably would have the Golden Throne as the master control.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Wait what? Where does it say the Old Ones made the webway? I always thought the Eldar made it? The old eldar before the fall quite naturally.

**Bran Dawri**

So did I. I've never come across any fluff that contradicts it.
I mean, come on people, give the eldar some acheivements of their own, willya?
They used to be this awesome mysterious race with the most advanced technology and psykers the galaxy has ever seen.
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Though now a shadow of their former glory, even these sad remnants of that once great empire still command technologies and powers far in advance of the Imperium's, or even Mankind at the height of the Golden Age of Technology...
At least, that's the way it used to be.

For no good reason, most of that has now been given to the Necrons (except the psychic powers), which IMO, is just stupid.

**SagesStone**

I thought they mentioned that in the current Eldar codex.

**Mahtamori**

I think what Mr Roadkill Zombie mean to say is that Eldar had all the egyptianesque stuff until the Oldcrons came along and GW retconned a lot of stuff to accommodate for a new master-tech-race. That's just a guess, though.

Bran: get used to it. This forum has a lot of pro-Imperium posters (and I mean this to read "fanaticism" all over that statement), or at least some very loud ones, who simply can't give a balanced view, nor give credit where it is due.
The Eldar still have these technologies, it's just that they aren't reflected on the table top. Necrons didn't steal all of it, either, they just raised the bar.

**Tadashi**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Wait what? Where does it say the Old Ones made the webway? I always thought the Eldar made it? The old eldar before the fall quite naturally.

Codex: Dark Eldar 5th Edition p.8

**DOOMBREAD**

Mahtamori wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
emphan34 wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No, it's more like nation A telling nation B what to do with nation B unable to see the consequences of this action while nation A can. It all depends on the desirable outcome for nation A whether it is wise or not for nation B to comply.

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

Although in my example above, Eldar usually slip a few words to the Inquisition and let them deal with it.

Well, when the Eldar manipulate the Imperium, it is usually the Eldar getting the Imperium to do something that is not directly detrimental to the Imperium but is a poor tactical decision that results in a benefit, but with unnecessary Human casualties and was not the most beneficial action in the long run.

The Eldar don't expect the Imperium to fall (except Biel-Tan, but they don't count) but if the Imperium did exactly what the Eldar wanted, all the time, it'd be quite detrimental, and would eventually result in the Eldar growing in power and the Imperium losing power so much that the Eldar would, quite possibly, reconquer the galaxy. Long story short, the Eldar will only manipulate Humans if it benefits them, but a benefit to the Eldar is often to the detriment of Mankind. A Human following Eldar advice would be conspiring with an enemy though, so in most cases, yes, it'd be treason.

**chromedog**

The imperium isn't at the height of its power, either.

It's still clawing its way out of a 10,000 year dark age and has a ways to go before getting anywhere near the GAOT they once held.

**Tadashi**

chromedog wrote:The imperium isn't at the height of its power, either.

It's still clawing its way out of a 10,000 year dark age and has a ways to go before getting anywhere near the GAOT they once held.

More like falling deeper and deeper into the dark age as opposed to clawing its way out. The height of the Imperium was the Great Crusade: a god-like Human on the Throne, reason and scientific progress, superhuman legions led by demigod-like Humans, yeah, sooner or later had the Horus Heresy not broken out, the Imperium would have surpassed the Eldar Empire, seeing as the Imperium was on the verge of gaining access and perhaps complete control over the Webway as the first step to accelerated psychic evolution.

**chromedog**

The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

**Tadashi**

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

The height of scientific and technological achievement, not power. Most of the worlds conquered during the Great Crusade were just that, new territory. The Great Crusade was the peak of mankind's military prowess, and a new beginning that could have led to a second Golden Age of Technology, but behind the gold and red banners of the empire, entire species were exterminated without mercy. No great loss, IMO.

**Kovnik Obama**

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

**Tadashi**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

**Kovnik Obama**

Tadashi wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

What I meant was that Chromedog implied the Imperium existed before the Emperor united Terra and launched what would become the Great Crusade, circa 30 000. I'm pretty sure that's always been refered to as the birth of the Imperium, not it's rebirth, and that whatever political entities there were in 20 000 wasn't an Imperium, or at least were never refered to as a single entity...?

Meaning that the Imperium was at it's peak very shortly after it's foundation, and only degraded ever since...

**Tadashi**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

What I meant was that Chromedog implied the Imperium existed before the Emperor united Terra and launched what would become the Great Crusade, circa 30 000. I'm pretty sure that's always been refered to as the birth of the Imperium, not it's rebirth, and that whatever political entities there were in 20 000 wasn't an Imperium, or at least were never refered to as a single entity...?

Meaning that the Imperium was at it's peak very shortly after it's foundation, and only degraded ever since...

We have no information on the polities that existed before the Old Night. And yes, the Imperium has never truly recovered from the Horus Heresy, and has slowly been crumbling since then.

**lunarman**

Back to the point:

Eldar and the Imperium are happy to get along, when their views/goals coincide.
Ultimately, they will never ally completely as Eldar are ultimately too selfish and the Imperium are ultimately too ham-fisted and violent.

Eldar wouldn't waste an Eldar life to save an Imperial planet (without ulterior motives), and would happily kill Imperials to save Eldar lives. The Imperium tends to march about the place destroying everything (ancient eldar burial sites, stirring up enemies) which only antagonises the Eldar.

**emphan34**

I think one problem is that all the codex's buff up and make every army seem invincible and if someone is bias towards their army like Tadashi is to his imperium and I am towards my eldar, discussions will actually get no where because each army has their weaknesses and strengths. and we will basically be pulling stuff from anywhere to say our army is better than yours. GW IMO, needs to make a history book (unless they already have) stating when and why things happened and the reasons each army had for doing such an action.