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Tadashi wrote:
The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

Eh, the Necrontyr achieved a higher tech level and a more widespread empire at their height before the interference of the C'Tan than the humans ever have. But then again, the Necrontyr really aren't around anymore...

At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

True, but you asked what did Humans do to deserve an empire. Basically, my point was that since Humans (and the Tyranids and the Tau) weren't designed by another species and as such didn't get their technology and special abilities from someone else, we are actually more deserving of a galactic empire since we had to work twice as hard to get where we are. Even the Necrons got something - immortality and access to the Webway - from the C'tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Which they would never admit.

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

True, but you asked what did Humans do to deserve an empire. Basically, my point was that since Humans (and the Tyranids and the Tau) weren't designed by another species and as such didn't get their technology and special abilities from someone else, we are actually more deserving of a galactic empire since we had to work twice as hard to get where we are. Even the Necrons got something - immortality and access to the Webway - from the C'tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Which they would never admit.

If the Emperor became a god in the Warp after his "death" and the astronomicon stayed lit with his power I could see the Eldar setting up some Alliances with the Imperium, as a reborn Emperor could probably smack them down and the Eldar would most likely rather continue to exist rather than rail against the Imperium.

@Alexandvar

It's possible, but considering their legendary arrogance, it's unlikely.

In my opinion the Imperium and the Eldar form a symbiant circle that proves slightly more advantageous to the eldar.
The imperium is a buffer zone (as alot of you have said) between The Eldar and the other factions of the galaxy.
Without the imperium, the eldar would really only be able to direct things like 'Waagh's!' on the tau. Which may work but (this may cause alot of flak on me) I believe the tau may actually be smart enough to realise what is happening and would avoid the path being set before them by the seers. So also in a way the "Stupidity of man" helps the eldar as they do not realise what has happened until long after it happens.
Well I suppose it may not really be symbiant as the imperium doesn't really gain an advantage from the eldar but who knows what would happen if the eldar weren't there.

But I personally believe that if the imperium and the eldar were to unite they would form an almost unstoppable force, the technological prowess rivaled by only the tau in comparison and divination and psychic abilities almost unmatched alongside the sheer numbers and combine tactical genuises.

emphan34 wrote:In my opinion the Imperium and the Eldar form a symbiant circle that proves slightly more advantageous to the eldar.
The imperium is a buffer zone (as alot of you have said) between The Eldar and the other factions of the galaxy.
Without the imperium, the eldar would really only be able to direct things like 'Waagh's!' on the tau. Which may work but (this may cause alot of flak on me) I believe the tau may actually be smart enough to realise what is happening and would avoid the path being set before them by the seers. So also in a way the "Stupidity of man" helps the eldar as they do not realise what has happened until long after it happens.
Well I suppose it may not really be symbiant as the imperium doesn't really gain an advantage from the eldar but who knows what would happen if the eldar weren't there.

I believe the term is commensalism. The Imperium gains nothing, while the Eldar do.

But I personally believe that if the imperium and the eldar were to unite they would form an almost unstoppable force, the technological prowess rivaled by only the tau in comparison and divination and psychic abilities almost unmatched alongside the sheer numbers and combine tactical genuises.

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before. Combine Eldar precognition with Human unpredictability, and you've got a chaotic order potential equal to the Orks. Nothing would stand in their way. Problem now is how to make it happen - the only man who can make it happen, the Emperor, is still stuck on the Golden Throne.

Tadashi wrote:
I believe the term is commensalism. The Imperium gains nothing, while the Eldar do.

Not so, the Imperium has a xenos that is neutral, for the most part, which can act as a shield against the more aggressive enemies. A clear example would be how Iyaden unwittingly blunted a major splinter of the Tyranid menace by itself, which otherwise would have drove right on into the heart of the Segmentum. A xenos that may or may not try to shoot you is always preferable to a xenos that will always try to eat your face off.

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before.

That's not how travel through the webway works. And the chaotic nature of warp travel is only part of the problem, the Imperium's stumbling bureaucracy is the main reason behind the Imperium's lethargic response.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before.

That's not how travel through the webway works. And the chaotic nature of warp travel is only part of the problem, the Imperium's stumbling bureaucracy is the main reason behind the Imperium's lethargic response.

The Emperor disagrees. He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

Tadashi wrote:

The Emperor disagrees.

The Emperor disagreed with Eldrad over a certain something and look how that turned out.

He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

That's not what you said though. The Webway allows swift access to pretty much anywhere, that's true, but it doesn't allow people to arrive before they've even left like you suggested. That only occurs in a few warp anomalies.

And again, you would have the massive bureaucracy to deal with.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

The Emperor disagrees.

The Emperor disagreed with Eldrad over a certain something and look how that turned out.

My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

That's not what you said though. The Webway allows swift access to pretty much anywhere, that's true, but it doesn't allow people to arrive before they've even left like you suggested. That only occurs in a few warp anomalies.

And again, you would have the massive bureaucracy to deal with.

1. Dark Eldar aren't supremely better at hiding themselves compared to the Craftworld, they are supremely better at situating themselves where nearly no one can get.
The Dark Eldar do not have an ultimate goal in their existance which over-arches their own survival, so they can afford to prey on others whereas Craftworlders are forced to roam the real space in order to combat both Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons.

2. While Eldar were given a fully evolved body, supremely better than Humans both in terms of culture, psyche, physique as well as intellectual knowledge, the humans did not have to fight anyone but themselves. Eldar on the other hand had to fight not only the Necron empire at the height of it's power, but also their own maker and god, Khaine.

Mahtamori wrote:
2. While Eldar were given a fully evolved body, supremely better than Humans both in terms of culture, psyche, physique as well as intellectual knowledge, the humans did not have to fight anyone but themselves. Eldar on the other hand had to fight not only the Necron empire at the height of it's power, but also their own maker and god, Khaine.

True Humans have never fought the Necron Empire at it's height, but I would disagree on the gods part. The Humans' own gods are waging a war on them. I am of the opinion that, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and, following millennia of feeding off of Mankind as well, Slaanesh (to a lesser degree as well), represent the negative aspects of Mankind. The Emperor represents the positive aspect. Until the Emperor truly 'ascends' and purifies Chaos, this war will continue. So Humans and their gods are still fighting each other. This would correspond IMO to the ancient part of Eldar history, when they fought their gods and the Necrons at the same time. Just like the Eldar long ago, the Humans are now fighting their gods and the other species of the galaxy at the same time.

No, that's not exactly what I mean. While I DID exaggerate in order to make the point that Eldar never received anything for free, but the chaos gods of present date is more than anything a result of the destructive birth of Slaanesh than anything bar possibly the fall of the Emperor.
What Khaine did was weaponize a few Eldar and use them against their own race, very nearly destroying them and murdering Eldanesh in the process.

Edit: I'm unusually clumsy with my choice of words of late, "the power of the chaos gods". I do not at all mean to imply Eldar created the other three.

Mahtamori wrote:No, that's not exactly what I mean. While I DID exaggerate in order to make the point that Eldar never received anything for free, but the chaos gods of present date is more than anything a result of the destructive birth of Slaanesh than anything bar possibly the fall of the Emperor.
What Khaine did was weaponize a few Eldar and use them against their own race, very nearly destroying them and murdering Eldanesh in the process.

The three elder Chaos Powers existed long before the Fall - they achieved sentience during the Dark Ages. Whether or not they were first formed during the War in Heaven, they only achieved sentience after feeding off of Mankind. That would make them Human gods, albeit incomplete and hideously flawed ones (for the moment per one interpretation).

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

So? My point is that Eldrad was right about the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was wrong. Just because the Emperor thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

Oh, I see your point. True, before anything, the Emperor's going to have fix the Administratum first of all. The current Administratum is far from the efficient bureaucracy organized and led by Malcador the Sigillite.

The inefficiency is just as much due to the sheer size of the Imperium as much as anything else. You could cut down on a lot of the bereaucratic red-tape (which is a big reason why the Inquisition is so effective), but it is impossible to completely solve the issue,

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

So? My point is that Eldrad was right about the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was wrong. Just because the Emperor thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Oh, I see your point. True, before anything, the Emperor's going to have fix the Administratum first of all. The current Administratum is far from the efficient bureaucracy organized and led by Malcador the Sigillite.

The inefficiency is just as much due to the sheer size of the Imperium as much as anything else. You could cut down on a lot of the bereaucratic red-tape (which is a big reason why the Inquisition is so effective), but it is impossible to completely solve the issue,

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Aw, you should know better. We could all become a thousand years old and GW would still have the Emprah sit on his "slowly malfunctioning" golden throne.
Hivefleets come and go, Black Crusades ravage entire sectors and retreat back into the eye of terror, ancient evils awaken and go back to slumber and the emprah will still sit on his golden toilet seat, forever cursed to be nearly but not yet quite dead. This is one of the two eternal truths of GW. The other is that sisters will probably never get new miniatures :(

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Aw, you should know better. We could all become a thousand years old and GW would still have the Emprah sit on his "slowly malfunctioning" golden throne.
Hivefleets come and go, Black Crusades ravage entire sectors and retreat back into the eye of terror, ancient evils awaken and go back to slumber and the emprah will still sit on his golden toilet seat, forever cursed to be nearly but not yet quite dead. This is one of the two eternal truths of GW. The other is that sisters will probably never get new miniatures :(

An acceptable truth, since Humans are still dominant.

And in any case, what do you think fanfics and role playing are for? Me and what few 40k fans I know over here are role-playing in a post-ascension scenario, where thanks to the Emperor's ascension Mankind has Five Gods manifesting directly and with Daemon Princes/Archangels leading former Imperial/former Chaos forces under the common banner of the Holy Empire across the galaxy.

Tadashi wrote:
And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or the Emperor will die or continue to remain in that state of undeath. The Star Child theory is just that, a wishful theory.

The Webway should solve that problem.

It would help, but it would never negate the issue entirely.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or the Emperor will die or continue to remain in that state of undeath. The Star Child theory is just that, a wishful theory.

See above posts.

The Webway should solve that problem.

It would help, but it would never negate the issue entirely.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum. And has anyone noticed: the Emperor and Malcador, King Arthur and Merlin? Just when did those two meet? There's a good chance the Emperor was King Arthur in Terra's distant past, and Malcador seems to have been with the Emperor since the founding of the Imperium.

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

This is true, unless there are about 1,000 Malcadors running around not much will change.

Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

When you think of it, it may actually have a decent amount of efficiency to it in parts considering the length of time it could take to ship out supplies and troops. That and warp travel does not have a consistent time to distance ratio so could be pretty annoying to regulate. Hence why some troops are deployed to battles that were over a fair while ago, likely supplies do the same and get turned around to get shipped out to whatever next happens to be on the list.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.