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what is their outlook on each other.....from what I have read it seems that not all Eldar are bad and specifically Ulthwe have fought with the Imperium

They are the closest nations that are nearly allies but hate each other as well. That's what I fathom anyway. But really just for the sake of the game their enemies with a passion but if Tyranids, Chaos, Greenskins or some other races attack they have been known to work together.

These two will generally try to avoid each other. They'll fight at times but have also allied against others almost as many times.

The Eldar can't hope to stop the Imperium if it ever turned all it's might on them, but that's not likely to happen what with all the Orks, Tyranids and other critters making much more of a nuisance for the humans. In a way the Imperium is a buffer of human bodies between the Eldar and anything hungry.

The Imperium is generally willing to ignore the Eldar if they keep out of the way. Besides the cost of engaging them would be much too high for little gain - the last known attack against a major Craftworld resulted in the loss of an entire Sector Fleet!

As others have already said the Imperium and Eldar tend to try to ignore each other for the most part.

Unfortunately for the Eldar, apart from those few with access to such information, the vast majority of the Imperium sees no difference between Craftworld Eldar, Corsairs, Exodites and Dark Eldar, viewing them all as a fickle and terrible threat the lurks just outside their territory (having no concept of the webway). Because of this for every instance where the Eldar gain something in the way of tolerance by assisting Imperial forces in their time of need, there are probably three Dark Eldar raids or attacks by other forces that reinforces the opinion of many Imperial officials that they are as much of a threat, if infitinitely more fickle, as any other xenos. In cases where Imperials do find themselves co-operating with Eldar they do so only with the greatest reluctance and distrust, and certainly aren't going to parade around the fact that they actually worked with xenos.

For the most part the Imperium is too busy worrying about the Ork or Tyranid trying to stab them in the face to pay much attention to the Eldar who might or might not stab them in the back.

Leave well enough alone is the common policy for both sides. Destroying the other is not impossible, but with exhaust the victor to the point they'd be wiped out by other enemies.

The Eldar also enjoy manipulating the Imperium to avoid Eldar deaths. Armeggeddon anyone? Literally using humans as well... human shields.

Not so much "enjoy" as "willing to sacrifice a million worthless human lives for the life of one Eldar".

Craftworld Eldar, at least, are ruthless not sadistic. On top of that I doubt the Imperium has any clue that Armageddon was due to the machinations of the Eldar.

I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

just the way that I like to think of their relations

dajobe wrote:I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

Thebians (as well as a few others) not Athenians, but a fairly decent comparison. If Athens was capable of floating around and disappearing almost at will you'd be bang on.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

dajobe wrote:I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

Thebians (as well as a few others) not Athenians, but a fairly decent comparison. If Athens was capable of floating around and disappearing almost at will you'd be bang on.

your right, my bad, lol but the greek city state analogy was what i was going for

and in my fake greek period, the peninsula is getting attacked by Persians, Romans, Egyptians and about everyone else around the mediteranean at once lol

Imperium: Xenos filth no different from Orks or Tyranids. Kill and purge them all. However if the situation of desperate enough, a more sensible commander or Inquisitor will work with them.

Eldar: Imperium are lower savages, foolishly on the path to self-destruction and bumbling/dangerous. However if the situation is desperate enough, they can be useful.

To the Imperium, eldar just more xenos to be exterminated. Usually.

@Harriticus: QFT.

The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Lotet wrote:The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Really don't lie Eldar do you?

But, look at it this way. Eldar summon their WAR GOD to help them in battle, which is naturally done by the craftworld's battlelust. The imperium sacrifices thousands every day to fuel the golden throne. Also, the Avatar isn't a god they worship, he is a fraction of their god.
They use 'necromancy' because they are a dying race, and hate doing it. They only awaken their dead in times of need. And considering it's putting a fully conscious spirit into a new body, not physically necromancy as you know it.
And considering the Eldar engineered Armageddon, and countless other things, I'd say they play a pretty big part as they 'hide in the shadows'.

The Imperium commits atrocities on a daily basis 10 times worse than any the eldar do. To avoid extinction they use humanity, with its abundance of super soldiers and manpower to solve problems, without them knowing.


I'm curious to know what army you play, and why you have such a bitterness for the Eldar...


Von Chogg

Lotet wrote:The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

Harriticus wrote:Imperium: Xenos filth no different from Orks or Tyranids. Kill and purge them all. However if the situation of desperate enough, a more sensible commander or Inquisitor will work with them.

Eldar: Imperium are lower savages, foolishly on the path to self-destruction and bumbling/dangerous. However if the situation is desperate enough, they can be useful.

I agree this is my view as well. I think the Eldar use humans to save Eldar lives

Von Chogg wrote:Really don't like Eldar do you?

But, look at it this way. Eldar summon their WAR GOD to help them in battle, which is naturally done by the craftworld's battlelust. The imperium sacrifices thousands every day to fuel the golden throne. Also, the Avatar isn't a god they worship, he is a fraction of their god.
They use 'necromancy' because they are a dying race, and hate doing it. They only awaken their dead in times of need. And considering it's putting a fully conscious spirit into a new body, not physically necromancy as you know it.
And considering the Eldar engineered Armageddon, and countless other things, I'd say they play a pretty big part as they 'hide in the shadows'.

The Imperium commits atrocities on a daily basis 10 times worse than any the eldar do. To avoid extinction they use humanity, with its abundance of super soldiers and manpower to solve problems, without them knowing.


I'm curious to know what army you play, and why you have such a bitterness for the Eldar...


Von Chogg

I play Dark Eldar right now, at least they know they're evil and are in it for themselves. the Craftworld Eldar wiped out a race because it would threaten them thousands of years into the future, if that's the case then the race would not have been steam rolled by any of the other races and would have become at least a minor galactic power. but no, they're gone, who are they to decide that one race that had a chance to thrive should be stamped out to save themselves?

they do this all the time, they don't help the humans when a common foe enters the fray, they manipulated the enemy to fight against the humans and then aided the humans so the enemy wouldn't over run them and head toward a Craftworld. the Dark Eldar don't use sorcery to protect themselves. they are simply supremely better at remaining hidden. maybe their Craftworld cousins should learn how to hide better themselves. it would save billions of lives.

Tadashi wrote:Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

have you ever read the line:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
now I'll ask you: Do you believe more lives would be saved by the alternative?

Lotet wrote:I play Dark Eldar right now, at least they know they're evil and are in it for themselves. the Craftworld Eldar wiped out a race because it would threaten them thousands of years into the future, if that's the case then the race would not have been steam rolled by any of the other races and would have become at least a minor galactic power. but no, they're gone, who are they to decide that one race that had a chance to thrive should be stamped out to save themselves?

they do this all the time, they don't help the humans when a common foe enters the fray, they manipulated the enemy to fight against the humans and then aided the humans so the enemy wouldn't over run them and head toward a Craftworld. the Dark Eldar don't use sorcery to protect themselves. they are simply supremely better at remaining hidden. maybe their Craftworld cousins should learn how to hide better themselves. it would save billions of lives.

Dark Eldar conduct their raids to drink the souls of those captured, which is then slowly sapped by Slaanesh. They are "evil" to survive. They just take pleasure in doing so.

The Eldar, as I'm sure you'll know, are a very arrogant, conceited people. They once rules the galaxy and view it as their right to "weed out" those who would threaten them. After all, if humanity was dying and it learned there would come a race in thousands of years which would wipe them out, I'm sure they would also take the chance to kill that race.

The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies. Also, the Eldar don't use sorcery, they use precognition to protect themselves whereas the Dark Eldar hide in the Webway because in real space, Slaanesh's soul-sucking becomes even stronger.

Comparing Dark eldar to Eldar is quite silly; they are both 2 sides of the same coin, of course there will be similarities but the two ultimately have different aims and goals.

Iranna.

Eldar depends on the Craftworld. Some will work with the IoM some would rather slaughter them instead. They're almost like separate factions at times.

I think it was the Biel-Tan that originally gave the IoM the view of them as back stabbers, but not completely sure on that. I know they're supposed to be the more arrogant of the Craftworlds, which may come from the amount of aspect warriors they have.

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

have you ever read the line:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
now I'll ask you: Do you believe more lives would be saved by the alternative?

n0t_u wrote:
I think it was the Biel-Tan that originally gave the IoM the view of them as back stabbers, but not completely sure on that. I know they're supposed to be the more arrogant of the Craftworlds, which may come from the amount of aspect warriors they have.

That's correct. The Eldar Codex makes mention that Biel-Tan warhosts have fought alongside imperial guardsmen against a common foe like orks several times, only to turn their weapons on their would-be allies and slaughter just when victory is secured.

They're the most aggressively xenophobic of the Craftworld Eldar. Other Cratworlds generally only kill xenos to preserve their own safety.

In one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels, the Tanith 1st and the Eldar seem to get along just fine for the time they were in their presence. Gaunt going as far as punching another trooper in the face because he was bad-mouthing the Eldar. But yeah, Gaunt isn't a typical Commisar, and seems to be quite a bit more intelligent, and generally a better person.

Almost all conflicts are initiated by the Eldar. The Imperium usually has no idea where any Craftworld Eldar are but then they suddenly show up kill a bunch of people and leave. They had their reasons of course but it pisses those humans off obviously.

I think the races views on each other are as varied as the individual experiences with each other.

On the whole though, the average Eldar are far more aware of the humans than the Humans, in general, are aware of the Eldar (if they even know they exist at all.)

As a blanket statement, I think it's fair to say that the Eldar see Humanity as a race similar to themselves in many ways (and therefore dangerous), but without the controls in place to justify any real meaningful alliances. Further complicated by imperial dogma and blind ignorance. Seeing humanity as a "lost cause" or doomed at one extreme, or for similar reasons dangerous and expendable as they are ultimately inferior at the other. Breeding feelings which range from condescension and pity to apathy, or contempt.

In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Uhlan wrote:In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Thank you for that. QFT.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Uhlan wrote:In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Thank you for that. QFT.

Most ironically, Eldar think the same way. To them, Humans are like Eldar in appearance, but are very different from Eldar and as alien to them as they are to Humans. So once again, the two species are more alike to each other in their mutual feelings for the other than any other species in the galaxy.

Tadashi wrote:

Iranna wrote:The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies.

Iranna.

The Eldar envy Humans? I've never heard of that before, and I don't understand why they would either.

The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Iranna wrote:The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies.

Iranna.

The Eldar envy Humans? I've never heard of that before, and I don't understand why they would either.

The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

I think the Eldar view humans as a giant meat-sheild against the likes of Orks, Tyranids and even Chaos most of the time. Usually the two of them are the lesser evils of a whole lot of evils.