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KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

Alexzandvar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

This is true, unless there are about 1,000 Malcadors running around not much will change.

Malcador was a pimp at running things. The Emperor just sat on the throne, Malcador ran the administratum while still having time to form the Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum, and take a seat at the golden throne, the first two things taking place during the heresy IIRC.

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

But the Eldar saw the Horus Heresy coming while the Emperor was completely blindsided. You don't seem to have much evidence to back up that statement of yours.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

But the Eldar saw the Horus Heresy coming while the Emperor was completely blindsided. You don't seem to have much evidence to back up that statement of yours.

The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either. Not only that, even though they saw the Heresy coming, their methods to warn the Imperium only made it worse. In the case of the Cabal, completely misguided. Under no circumstances would the Emperor have wanted Chaos destroyed at the expense of Mankind's destruction. And who's to say the Emperor didn't actually plan/intend for the Heresy and its aftermath?

He's smarter and more powerful than the Eldar combined. He's the only person the Chaos Powers truly fear, or, if the implications are true, is the most powerful warp god in the making.

The Emperor +4
Heretics and Xenos +0

Tadashi wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

By the time anyone realized the kind of ramifications the Eldar's descent into depravity it was too late. They did the only thing they could, making the Craftworlds and saving what they could of their race in the process. It's a damn site better than getting stabbed in the face by your favourite son.

Not only that, even though they saw the Heresy coming, their methods to warn the Imperium only made it worse. In the case of the Cabal, completely misguided. Under no circumstances would the Emperor have wanted Chaos destroyed at the expense of Mankind's destruction. And who's to say the Emperor didn't actually plan/intend for the Heresy and its aftermath?

Probably himself, seeing as he struggled as hard as he could against it and tried to end it before it spread too far (unless you're saying the Emperor was in on the Istvaan massacre as well). That and the Imperium has turned into a tyrannical, religious nightmare and is a far cry from the Emperor's dream for humanity. If the Emperor planned for the Horus Heresy to occur (especially with the Crusade going so well) then he was pants-on-head slowed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:


Probably himself, seeing as he struggled as hard as he could against it and tried to end it before it spread too far (unless you're saying the Emperor was in on the Istvaan massacre as well). That and the Imperium has turned into a tyrannical, religious nightmare and is a far cry from the Emperor's dream for humanity. If the Emperor planned for the Horus Heresy to occur (especially with the Crusade going so well) then he was pants-on-head slowed.

Not the Heresy itself, but He certainly planned ahead once it was well on its way. All those sacrifices to keep the Throne running sound a lot like how He was born, and the fact remains: the Imperium endures. After all, if He's reborn/ascends, He can just start over. In the end, what mattered to the Emperor was Mankind survives and continues to pursue its manifest destiny. Everything that was done since the Heresy is simply necessity, including throwing the Imperium's ideals into the flames, all for the sake of the future.

The Emperor +5
Heretics and Xenos +0

Which doesn't change the fact that the Emperor did indeed feth up.

Exactly what are you driving at here? That the Emperor is more cunning than the entire Eldar race combined? Because he's clearly not.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Which doesn't change the fact that the Emperor did indeed feth up.

And like all Humans, He continues to defy fate and will triumph in the end.

Exactly what are you driving at here? That the Emperor is more cunning than the entire Eldar race combined? Because he's clearly not.

Of course He is. Otherwise, the Four Powers would have focused on the Eldar first and the Emperor second. Note, that the Four Powers did not actively pursue the Craftworlds even though the Eldar were in position to stop a concerted effort by Chaos to destroy them after the Fall, but when the Emperor began to build His empire, the Powers united against Him.

The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Anyway, my answer to the OP Question is pretty much what everyone else has said: they just ignore each other. Yes, they could wage a full on war and one race could potentially wipe out the other but the winner would, as has been said, just get finished off by Orks or whatever. They're very distrusting of each other, but are willing to put aside their differences. And although the Eldar are "willing to sacrifice a million human lives to save one eldar life" this doesn't mean Eldar actively go out and attack the Imperium but rather that they're more than willing to 'deflect' an attack that would be on them onto the Imperium, and feel no remorse, like Armegaddon (have I spelt that right?) which was mentioned previouslty as well.

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Anyway, my answer to the OP Question is pretty much what everyone else has said: they just ignore each other. Yes, they could wage a full on war and one race could potentially wipe out the other but the winner would, as has been said, just get finished off by Orks or whatever. They're very distrusting of each other, but are willing to put aside their differences. And although the Eldar are "willing to sacrifice a million human lives to save one eldar life" this doesn't mean Eldar actively go out and attack the Imperium but rather that they're more than willing to 'deflect' an attack that would be on them onto the Imperium, and feel no remorse, like Armegaddon (have I spelt that right?) which was mentioned previouslty as well.

Well, it's not like they have the numbers to go looking for trouble.

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

The Emperor doesn't have the knowledge. 2-1
Even if the Emperor would be able to get the knowledge, he'd have to gain it in the first place. 2-2
The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3
The Eldar have a God in the Webways who wouldn't like competition. 2-4
The Eldar, unlike the primitive chimpanzee psychers, are able to create ad-hoc pathways without the help of an Emperor. 2-5
...who was unable to forsee treachery among his own children. 2-6
...and is now held in eternal stasis by his own people. 2-7
...whom do not let him either be reborn or be transformed into a god 2-8
...all the while Eldrad did forsee this. 2-9
...and tried to warn the Emperor. 2-10
...but didn't know enough and warned the wrong children. 2-10-1
And now Eldrad's fate is unknown. 2-10-2
Unless Eldrad's soul stone can be retrieved he'll be a feast for Slaanesh. 2-10-3
But if it can be retrieved, Eldrad may very well be subsumed into a deity of proportions far exceeding the chaos gods combined. 2-11-3
...which is incidentally more powerful the the god the Emperor would be. 2-12-3

Isn't it amazing how many points you can rack in if the one dealing out the points is also one of the guys arguing. I think this thread has run it's course and degenerated into flamebaiting.

Mahtamori wrote:
The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3

No.

Their mentors.

Mahtamori wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

The Emperor doesn't have the knowledge. 2-1

He did, He just didn't have the technology to replicate the Webway's construction materials, but would have gotten it sooner rather than later since the Mechanicus was actually innovating at the time. 3-0

Even if the Emperor would be able to get the knowledge, he'd have to gain it in the first place. 2-2

See above.

The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3

They've lost that knowledge, and it was never theirs in the first place being given to them by the Old Ones, and the Emperor would have cracked the secret due to innovation and creativity under the Imperial Truth. 4-0

The Eldar have a God in the Webways who wouldn't like competition. 2-4

Who can barely confront the Chaos Powers. The Emperor's been keeping them back for ten thousand years, and probably long before then. 5-0

The Eldar, unlike the primitive chimpanzee psychers, are able to create ad-hoc pathways without the help of an Emperor. 2-5

I will concede the point. 5-1

...who was unable to forsee treachery among his own children. 2-6

Only half of them, but I will concede again. 5-2

...and is now held in eternal stasis by his own people. 2-7

There is no choice, and it was on His orders in the first place that He be placed on the Throne. So, compromise. No points. 5-2

...whom do not let him either be reborn or be transformed into a god 2-8

The Illuminati and their goals, as well as the Star Child are known to the Emperor. And the Illuminati include many influential and powerful members of the Inquisition. It'll be difficult, but not impossible. And even if it were, Humans are known for making the impossible possible. 6-2

...all the while Eldrad did forsee this. 2-9
...and tried to warn the Emperor. 2-10
...but didn't know enough and warned the wrong children. 2-10-1

6-2, no points since both sides failed in this section.

And now Eldrad's fate is unknown. 2-10-2

Variable, so no points again. 6-2

Unless Eldrad's soul stone can be retrieved he'll be a feast for Slaanesh. 2-10-3

Also variable, so no points again. 6-2

But if it can be retrieved, Eldrad may very well be subsumed into a deity of proportions far exceeding the chaos gods combined. 2-11-3
...which is incidentally more powerful the the god the Emperor would be. 2-12-3

Ynnead has no guarantee of defeating all four Powers, only Slaanesh, whereas the Emperor is seen as a threat by all four. And even Slaanesh is no guarantee for Ynnead, considering that Slaanesh now draws power from the Humans as well. Humans may be lacking in power and potency compared to Eldar, but instability both in psyche and soul makes them more dangerous in the Warp. The elder three Powers attained sentience by feeding of Mankind's darkness during the Dark Ages, assuming they came into existence during the War in Heaven. Their power level was such that the Eldar Gods couldn't confront them, and even Slaanesh after the Fall after consuming most of the Eldar Gods, couldn't defeat either Khorne or Nurgle. And this was before he/she/it fed off of Mankind, so Slaanesh had yet to became a Power of Chaos. So, 7-2.

Tadashi wrote:

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Last I checked the Imperium persevered through sheer guts and determination, not rigging a point system so that it looks like they're winning a poorly thought out argument.

Bad Imperial, bad!

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Last I checked the Imperium persevered through sheer guts and determination, not rigging a point system so that it looks like they're winning a poorly thought out argument.

Whatever works...

Bad Imperial, bad!

lol

To be fair Tadashi, Eldar Gods did not fear the three Chaos gods at all. Nowhere in the fluff does it say they even gave them a second glance. The only chaos god the Eldar gods ever feared was the one made of departing Eldar Spirits...Slaanesh.....One created by the Eldar themselves.

As to the OP's question...All Eldar hate and make war on the Imperium. Some Craftworlds do it openly, some do it through subtlety.

Biel-Tan wages a war of Genocide against them wherever they find them...and against everyone else too.

Saim-Hann wages war on the imperium through raiding and swift jetbike attacks.

Ulthwe does it through seeing into the future and manipulating them through time to war against others.

Alaitoc is actively engaged in an ongoing open war called the Beelze conflict. They use hit and run tactics against the Imperium because they don't have the numbers to go against the Imperial Guard.

Iyanden tries to avoid the Imperium where they can because of how badly they were depleted from the Tyranid invasion of their craftworld. This attack by Tyranids inadverdently saved some Imperial Worlds from falling to the Tyranids by having them attack Iyanden instead. And Prince Yriel being able to defeat the Tyranid fleet saved quite a few Imperial Lives. However, it was not by choice.

The Eldar feign alliances with the Imperium all the time to use the Imperials greater numbers to destroy large armies like Orks. Then the Eldar go in and mop up whoever is left from both sides.

The Eldar race as a whole does not side with the Imperium for real...only long enough to manipulate them somehow. They hate all humans.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:To be fair Tadashi, Eldar Gods did not fear the three Chaos gods at all. Nowhere in the fluff does it say they even gave them a second glance. The only chaos god the Eldar gods ever feared was the one made of departing Eldar Spirits...Slaanesh.....One created by the Eldar themselves.

You're my point. If the Eldar Gods were really that powerful, they would have confronted and destroyed the Chaos Powers because of the threat they posed. But they didn't. It wouldn't make sense for the warlike Khaine to just ignore Khorne because it was beneath him. No, they didn't confront them because they didn't want to. They may have been equal, which I doubt, or, just like the Elder Gods of Lovecraft (who chained the Great Old Ones but could not destroy them) from which they are partly based, they just restrained them but could never really destroy them.

The greatest proof is Khaine. Even if Slaanesh had feasted on the other Eldar Gods, if Khaine was truly powerful enough to ignore the Chaos Powers, he should have been able to defeat Slaanesh easily. But he couldn't, and was immediately torn apart by Khorne and Slaanesh fighting over his defeated form.

Tadashi wrote:

True Humans have never fought the Necron Empire at it's height, but I would disagree on the gods part. The Humans' own gods are waging a war on them. I am of the opinion that, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and, following millennia of feeding off of Mankind as well, Slaanesh (to a lesser degree as well), represent the negative aspects of Mankind. The Emperor represents the positive aspect. Until the Emperor truly 'ascends' and purifies Chaos, this war will continue. .

Lol the Emperor God of Purity? Have you noticed all the horrors and degenerateness of the Imperium? If he ascends to the Warp as anything, it will be as God of Fascism...

That's where your mistaken Tadashi. As the fluff states, the ONLY reason Slaanesh could defeat Khaine was because he had grown more powerful than any of the chaos gods because he feasted on the emotions and literal souls of almost the entire Eldar race. That made Slaanesh more powerful than Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork, Mork, or any other god in the Warp in that moment in time.

Khorne couldn't have defeated Slaanesh at that moment any more than Khaine could have.

But at least Khaine tried. And He was still so powerful that he tired out Slaanesh to the point that Slaanesh could not kill him like he had the other Eldar gods. Instead, all he could do was splinter him into many pieces and exile him from the Warp.

To survive the wrath of a Chaos God so totally bloated with power as Slaanesh was at the time of the fall takes incredible, almost unimaginable levels of power. Power that the other Chaos Gods were never strong enough to defeat.

Nurgle couldn't have done it, Tzeentch couldn't have done it. Neither could Gork, Mork, the Emperor, or even Khorne.

The only one who could was Slaanesh on Eldar steroids. The other chaos gods had to wait until Khaine was tired from battling such a powerful creature before even attempting to battle Khaine.

And when they did they STILL couldn't kill him. All they could do was fracture him and send him into the material universe. That's some serious power there!

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia


and also Eldrad Ultran has managed to divert some very dangerous things from craftworlds. The imperium when they came across the tyranids, planet after planet got swallowed up before proper action was taken, yes lyanden got hit and many maiden and exodite worlds have been swallowed up but most craftworlds manage to avert disaster through the seers. I doubt the 'emprah' diverts disasters, in fact I doubt he does anything and is more of an image to help keep the imperium going. leaving the Inquisition to run the imperium of man.

And in terms of gods the eldar (perhaps being one of the most powerful races apart from necrons and the old ones) managed to create a god in their own image now the fact that the eldar gods don't destroy the chaos gods shows that they either did not know they existed or were so inferior that they were no threat, the fall and slaanesh was something that no one saw coming until it is too late and it wasen't until slaanesh feed upon the power of the countless eldar and the rest of the gods that he/she and khaine did battle bearing in mind slaanesh had consumed the most powerful of all gods Asuryan, and then still wasen't powerful enough to defeat khaine.

And if the chaos gods are as powerful as you suggest and eldar ones aren't as powerful, surely the choatic gods would have fought with the eldar ones.

emphan34 wrote:
And in terms of gods the eldar (perhaps being one of the most powerful races apart from necrons and the old ones) managed to create a god in their own image now the fact that the eldar gods don't destroy the chaos gods shows that they either did not know they existed or were so inferior that they were no threat, the fall and slaanesh was something that no one saw coming until it is too late and it wasen't until slaanesh feed upon the power of the countless eldar and the rest of the gods that he/she and khaine did battle bearing in mind slaanesh had consumed the most powerful of all gods Asuryan, and then still wasen't powerful enough to defeat khaine.

I'm pretty sure the Realm of Chaos source books imply that the original three Chaos Powers are Human Gods. They may or may not have originally come into existence during the War in Heaven, but only achieved form, sentience, and power because of the Human race. The Eldar might have created more gods in their image, but the Humans did it too. However, if we're going to argue based on that, we're wasting our time, since the Orks' gods - Gork and Mork - are and always will be the mightiest in the Warp. But no, I don't think that the Eldar Gods did not know about or were more powerful than the Powers of Chaos. Most likely, they were more or less equal, in same cases stronger, in others weaker, to the point they left each other alone, at least until the Fall.

And if the chaos gods are as powerful as you suggest and eldar ones aren't as powerful, surely the choatic gods would have fought with the eldar ones.

They might have, but see above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That's where your mistaken Tadashi. As the fluff states, the ONLY reason Slaanesh could defeat Khaine was because he had grown more powerful than any of the chaos gods because he feasted on the emotions and literal souls of almost the entire Eldar race. That made Slaanesh more powerful than Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork, Mork, or any other god in the Warp in that moment in time.

Khorne couldn't have defeated Slaanesh at that moment any more than Khaine could have.

But at least Khaine tried. And He was still so powerful that he tired out Slaanesh to the point that Slaanesh could not kill him like he had the other Eldar gods. Instead, all he could do was splinter him into many pieces and exile him from the Warp.

To survive the wrath of a Chaos God so totally bloated with power as Slaanesh was at the time of the fall takes incredible, almost unimaginable levels of power. Power that the other Chaos Gods were never strong enough to defeat.

Nurgle couldn't have done it, Tzeentch couldn't have done it. Neither could Gork, Mork, the Emperor, or even Khorne.

The only one who could was Slaanesh on Eldar steroids. The other chaos gods had to wait until Khaine was tired from battling such a powerful creature before even attempting to battle Khaine.

And when they did they STILL couldn't kill him. All they could do was fracture him and send him into the material universe. That's some serious power there!

You're wrong about a couple of things. First of all, Khaine was confronted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh, only for Khorne to claim Khaine as his prize. Slaanesh fought Khorne, but was unable to defeat the Power, and in the process Khaine was driven out of the Warp and broken to pieces. The point of this is Slaanesh defeated and controlled Khaine, implying he/she/it wasn't exhausted by the battle, and Slaanesh was still defeated by Khorne.

Second, Gork and Mork are mightier than any other being in the Warp. They cannot be truly defeated. EVER.

Finally, I have a quote from Path of the Warrior: "The Prince of Pleasure and the Lord of Skulls fought over possession of Khaine's spirit, for the Bloody-Handed God was a child of both but belonged to neither."

Child of Both: Khorne draws his power from violence, and the violence unleashed by the Eldar at Khaine's behest strengthened Khorne, so Khaine is not so powerful to be exempt from Khorne's power. As for his connection to Slaanesh, technically, Slaanesh should have formed around the same time as the other Powers of Chaos, but somehow unlike the other three, failed to draw enough power from the Humans and achieve form and sentience in the process. How this makes him/her/it superior to Khaine is above me though.

Belonged to Neither: Since Khorne achieved form and sentience through the Human race, while feeding off Khaine's violence, could not truly claim Khaine as his own since Khorne was a Human deity. And like Slaanesh, Khaine was born of the Eldar's thoughts but in an opposite manner to Slaanesh, so he/she/it could not truly claim Khaine either.

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

Oh, I see. you're drawing your conlusions from an alternate reality. None of that happened in the main reality of 40k...in other words, the codexes and main game fluff.

All of the things you read from Black Library are meant to give you a feel for the 40k universe and are and are not 100% canon at the same time. So you and I and everyone else can choose to believe it is canon or choose not to. However, While GW policy is that way for Black Library books, it is not that way for Codexes.

Now before you go off on a rant as to why I should believe a codex is more canon than a black library book lets give you the reason. First, the codexes came first. Long before the Black Library was even around, they developed the fluff for how Khaine and Slaanesh fought (Khorne wasn't involved at all) and gave the entire reason as to the fall of the Eldar. It was and is printed in many books that I own from back then. Therefore, to me it will always be more canon than any black library book.

Also, since the current codexes have not changed that fluff even one bit, to me they are still canon. The only change came when the Black library started publishing books. And in the process of writing those books, I've seen GW and the authors say you can take it as canon or not. I choose not to because it contradicts the codexes and stories from GW's games like 40k, and Epic Space Marine.

Now, the second reason is because sometimes that fluff actually translates over to game mechanics and therefor is important. To give an example, the fluff states what Khaine is made from. Thus he cannot be harmed by what he is made from. I.E. flames and heat weapons like Melta guns cannot harm him.

There are other examples but I think you get the idea.

Anyway, I cannot continue this discussion sensibly with you because you choose to believe the alternate fluff rather than the standard fluff given in the game books. You know, the fluff as it's been from the start.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No, it's more like nation A telling nation B what to do with nation B unable to see the consequences of this action while nation A can. It all depends on the desirable outcome for nation A whether it is wise or not for nation B to comply.

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

Although in my example above, Eldar usually slip a few words to the Inquisition and let them deal with it.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, I see. you're drawing your conlusions from an alternate reality. None of that happened in the main reality of 40k...in other words, the codexes and main game fluff.

No, the fluff about Khaine being assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh, along with the fluff about being broken into pieces when Khorne challenged Slaanesh, was from Codex: Chaos Daemons. And the fluff about the elder Powers being Human Gods comes from the Realm of Chaos source books, is the basis for Chaos 3rd and 4th Editions. And it stated outright in Codex: Orks that Gork and Mork are undefeatable. So only the last part of my post was from BL.

Mahtamori wrote:

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

In some cases, yes, but despite those cases, most of the Eldar's actions have given the Imperium (and let's face it, even without the Imperium, all Humans) small reason to trust the Eldar.

Tadashi wrote:
Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No. It would be like a known terrorist of a relatively minor militant cell (who is also known to have access to sensitive information) provided you with information that suggested one of your most trusted operatives was actually going assist a major terrorist organization in a major attack against your country.

You might take that information with a grain of salt as you investigated whether it might have any weight to it, but you wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Imperium of Man and Eldrad as the Eldar representative had peace talks at one point? And the reason the Eldar (or at the very least Ulthwe) and the Imperium of Man are not super buddies is because Eldrad sensed a daemonic sword influencing the space marine giving the peace talks and had the space marine peace talk party slaughtered WITHOUT TELLING THE IMPERIUM WHY?

Also, I'm sure somewhere in the galaxy far far away there is a forgotten craftworld who has learned humility from experience or hardship and has gotten off its haughty pedestal having a very trusting alliance with some forgotten sector in the Imperium of Man who has learned to accept any help they can if they are to survive all the nom noms out in the galaxy.

Since there was talks about the whole Khaine/Slannesh thing it made me curious. Since Slannesh didn't have enough strength to finish off Khaine and had him scattered across craftworld and maiden worlds instead (Source: 4ed Eldar Codex), why can't all the Eldar take the pieces of Khaine and put him back together with some kind of soulglue and have him dominate the galaxy? The four Chaos Gods can't get out into real space because the portals are too small to allow them access and the only thing stopping the reunited Khaine is probably an enormous Waaagh who think they can or Draigo. But then again, Khaine would probably be so pissed that the Eldar orgied a new God that he would probably kill the first anyway.

SkyHawk wrote:Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Imperium of Man and Eldrad as the Eldar representative had peace talks at one point? And the reason the Eldar (or at the very least Ulthwe) and the Imperium of Man are not super buddies is because Eldrad sensed a daemonic sword influencing the space marine giving the peace talks and had the space marine peace talk party slaughtered WITHOUT TELLING THE IMPERIUM WHY?

I don't know what that is from. Perhaps the Relictors? Though as far as I'm aware they never had much to do with the Eldar.

In any case, there IS no single representative of the Imperium or the Eldar. You might have an agreement between a Craftworld and a particular sector of the Imperium (perhaps a pact of non-aggression), but it would be impossible to organize anything else.

Tadashi wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

In some cases, yes, but despite those cases, most of the Eldar's actions have given the Imperium (and let's face it, even without the Imperium, all Humans) small reason to trust the Eldar.

Well, you can tell what view I'm trying to convey about Eldar, right? They are far from incompetent, nowhere near hippies, and in general have the best of the galaxy and the best of the Eldar race specifically. The Eldar are, however, utter arrogant bastards and the problem with them is that they're usually right. It's not nice to know that the argument "you never even asked" and the answer is "it would only have made things worse" and you'd know that they were right.