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DakotaBlue wrote:So, not having battle brothers, which one do you feel to take as allies?

I think we have a very strong CC, with the termis being very powerfull (more if you've the warlord with a good perk in the unit), and we have some "shooty" now with the stormravens and psydreads being as always.

Should we just not take alies and instead an aegis defense line, or shooty allies like Tau?

Well, this is a major issue for GK in the 6th, getting an army with allies going.

I'm thinking about a GK fraction configured as a counter-strike army that moves forward into range of 24'' targeting the enemy via shooting. In order to get into position, some shooting support would be useful. This could come from Tau, IG or Necrons.

Why bother with allies. Between crazy terminator dudes, power armor dudes, and IG-like henchmen dudes we already have a nice mix of stuff.

sudojoe wrote:ugh, so many GK losses lately on battle reports I'm reading and seeing online. Anyone got some good news to share? Feels like we really went from tops now to bottom of the mid or top of the lower tiers armies.

I don't think it's that bad, we just need to think differently. The old lists need revision, perhaps drastically.

Well, I tried the Land Raider Crusader vs Eldar.

He had 9 vehicles (2 prism, and the rest was a mix of serpents and else), he shooted a lot to it, but it resisted, till a 6 in the internal damage table. The LR lasted till turn 4, which is good, the terminators were near a point.

Psychic powers vs eldar is futile. 3d6 and 12+ perils costed Coteaz 2 wounds. Not worth it.

And the servitors do NEED the 3+ save, either from a technomarine upgrading a ruin, or 3/4 crusaders in front.

Overall, I think Grey Knights must focus more in resilience, which they exceed, at least, vs this kind of list.

I'm amazed a LR lasted against what was undoubtedly a lot of lances; given that nearly each time they have a 50% chance to remove a hullpoint.

Yea 3d6 psychic powers vs eldar, and no saves against perils at all means I won't ever use any powers vs eldar period.

Sethorly wrote:

sudojoe wrote:ugh, so many GK losses lately on battle reports I'm reading and seeing online. Anyone got some good news to share? Feels like we really went from tops now to bottom of the mid or top of the lower tiers armies.

I don't think it's that bad, we just need to think differently. The old lists need revision, perhaps drastically.

Yeah, I think that's the problem more than anything. I look at our lists forum and it's really just revised 5th edition lists. People seem to be underestimating flyers, challenges and other fairly integral parts of this edition. Hell, the new chaos codex seems to have specific rules built in around challenges and people still seem to thing sargeants with powerfists are a good idea. Give it a month or two.

Does anyone think falchions may be a good weapons choice on some of our terminators?

It seems to me that it's generally not a good idea for us to flat out assault other terminators anymore and the initiative 6 halberd is less of an issue with power weapons being ap3 or initiative 1 ap2. Granted 5 points for one extra attack might not be great but with a bro banner it could be pretty decent.

I could be missing a lot as I'm new but just a thought.

korghan wrote:Does anyone think falchions may be a good weapons choice on some of our terminators?

It seems to me that it's generally not a good idea for us to flat out assault other terminators anymore and the initiative 6 halberd is less of an issue with power weapons being ap3 or initiative 1 ap2. Granted 5 points for one extra attack might not be great but with a bro banner it could be pretty decent.

I could be missing a lot as I'm new but just a thought.

id rather the I6. 5 point falchiontax may seem good, but youd get those attacks at the same time as alot of enemies. With halberds you at least get to whittle the enemy squads numbers down before they attack. Swapping the nemasis weapon out doesnt effect out termies ability to shoot.

I see where you're coming from. I suppose MEQ is one of the most common enemies which would have the same initiative. I may model a few of mine with them anyway to deal with masses of orks or guardsmen which have lower initiative values.

Also what do you think the best weapon is for librarians with challenges in mind? My first thought was the staff but with perils no longer allowing saves it seems really pricey.

Either way I'm with GK regardless of new 6th edition implementations. I really like the fluff, with a few over the top sections.

korghan wrote:I see where you're coming from. I suppose MEQ is one of the most common enemies which would have the same initiative. I may model a few of mine with them anyway to deal with masses of orks or guardsmen which have lower initiative values.

Also what do you think the best weapon is for librarians with challenges in mind? My first thought was the staff but with perils no longer allowing saves it seems really pricey.

Either way I'm with GK regardless of new 6th edition implementations. I really like the fluff, with a few over the top sections.

Staffs only work with melee attacks.

For a challenge librarian, a staff is a must, power of titan + hand, and if you wish, mercury, but it's not a must.

korghan wrote:I see where you're coming from. I suppose MEQ is one of the most common enemies which would have the same initiative. I may model a few of mine with them anyway to deal with masses of orks or guardsmen which have lower initiative values.

Also what do you think the best weapon is for librarians with challenges in mind? My first thought was the staff but with perils no longer allowing saves it seems really pricey.

Either way I'm with GK regardless of new 6th edition implementations. I really like the fluff, with a few over the top sections.

staff. the advantage of challenges lies in speed, or ability to whether attacks and hit after. our libbys the wallness with TDA and a 3++ from a staff. All NFW are AP3, the staff with a level 3 master, a cast of quicksilver and hammerhand, then either titan if the opponents an EW, or if not use the force (luke ). i forget his base I, but if i remember its already high, to the point of a halberd being redundant. the perils, well their always going to be a risk, but one you agreed to take by fielding a libby in the first place. if you really want to win a big shiny challenge alone, take a champion. At least the libby will be usefull outside of the challange.

EDIT: put both instead of all NFW by mistake

Once I expand to higher levels I'll likely use a libby with a staff and psyker powers from the rule book just to try them out. A libby with a staff is 185. His initiative is only 4 but I think the 2++ will save him in challenges. If I'm going to keep him with shooters I'll likely go with divination powers as even the primaris power looks great. If I'm going to assault with him I'll probably go with pyro.

I'll try him out and if it doesn't work out as I hoped I'll just switch him over to a GM.

I know these HQ's are pretty expensive but from what I've read (remember I'm still very new) these two HQ's seem to be force multipliers rather than just some tough guy.

korghan wrote:Once I expand to higher levels I'll likely use a libby with a staff and psyker powers from the rule book just to try them out. A libby with a staff is 185. His initiative is only 4 but I think the 2++ will save him in challenges. If I'm going to keep him with shooters I'll likely go with divination powers as even the primaris power looks great. If I'm going to assault with him I'll probably go with pyro.

I'll try him out and if it doesn't work out as I hoped I'll just switch him over to a GM.

I know these HQ's are pretty expensive but from what I've read (remember I'm still very new) these two HQ's seem to be force multipliers rather than just some tough guy.

In all honesty, with the 2+ and lack of AP2 the staff isnt as needed as it used to be when everything and its mother could negate a 2+. Now i can see him needing the 3++/5++ alot less. as for the powers hes level 2 mastery base, take 1 power of each. Tho for "shooty/assaulty" your better off just keeping him with termies, so theyl be doing both anyway.

The GM is a tad overated. It can give the shiny grenades which are nice, but mostly your only paying for grand strategy, his wargear options are too overpriced, and i think I6 i think base, the halberds useless. If your after the psychic Communion, it can be gotten cheaper on an inquisitor (hell for less than half the points you can get that, a cheap psycannon and servo skulls.)

At 1k i run a power armoured OM, and it works fine for me, even more so now with his daemonsword (though actually have no idea of the AP on it now ), but i throw in a libby with the termies when i boost it to 1.5k. And il be honest, libby and termies has been able to wreck face pretty consistently for me.

EDIT: Minor fix to wording

also, out of curiosity, which of the rulebooks power school work best for us now? or best to stick to codex powers?

Just going back to dreadknights

What did we end up deciding as the best build?

I have two yet to be made, I know teleporter and incinerator for sure, but is the sword worth it, and what about the other weapons.

Problem is they become very expensive very quickly, has anyone tried without teleporter, is it really needed?

The Teliporter is a must. Incinerator is the best weapon option but the Psycannon has merits.

Fortunantly the DK's weapons are all snap on and you can swap out if you wish. The hands just slide into place and the weapons have the same deal.

doc1234 wrote:

korghan wrote:Once I expand to higher levels I'll likely use a libby with a staff and psyker powers from the rule book just to try them out. A libby with a staff is 185. His initiative is only 4 but I think the 2++ will save him in challenges. If I'm going to keep him with shooters I'll likely go with divination powers as even the primaris power looks great. If I'm going to assault with him I'll probably go with pyro.

I'll try him out and if it doesn't work out as I hoped I'll just switch him over to a GM.

I know these HQ's are pretty expensive but from what I've read (remember I'm still very new) these two HQ's seem to be force multipliers rather than just some tough guy.

In all honesty, with the 2+ and lack of AP2 the staff isnt as needed as it used to be when everything and its mother could negate a 2+. Now i can see him needing the 3++/5++ alot less. as for the powers hes level 2 mastery base, take 1 power of each. Tho for "shooty/assaulty" your better off just keeping him with termies, so theyl be doing both anyway.

The GM is a tad overated. It can give the shiny grenades which are nice, but mostly your only paying for grand strategy, his wargear options are too overpriced, and i think I6 i think base, the halberds useless. If your after the psychic Communion, it can be gotten cheaper on an inquisitor (hell for less than half the points you can get that, a cheap psycannon and servo skulls.)

At 1k i run a power armoured OM, and it works fine for me, even more so now with his daemonsword (though actually have no idea of the AP on it now ), but i throw in a libby with the termies when i boost it to 1.5k. And il be honest, libby and termies has been able to wreck face pretty consistently for me.

EDIT: Minor fix to wording

also, out of curiosity, which of the rulebooks power school work best for us now? or best to stick to codex powers?

What load out do you use for your libby? Does he do well in challenges?

Grey Templar wrote:The Teliporter is a must. Incinerator is the best weapon option but the Psycannon has merits.

Fortunantly the DK's weapons are all snap on and you can swap out if you wish. The hands just slide into place and the weapons have the same deal.

Cool thanks for that, what about the sword though?

Cheers

The sword is awsome if you can spare the points. It's rerolls apply to all its Melee attacks(technically it also applies to ranged weapons but thats stupid), so you are Str10 with rerolls to hit, wound, and for armor penetration when you have the sword. You also get +1A for 2 CCWs.

If you primarily want your liby to win challenges, HIGHLY recommend the brain mines. Seriously, that thing is like a ghetto mind shackle scarab. Best 10 points I can get for my challenge units. (updated on first page)

I'm only done 2 games with the DK, both with the teleporter and I really liked that. Also enjoyed the flamer alot especially when it comes to night fighting since I can port up 36', flame 12' away and cover 8' with the template with no saves on some unlukcy dismounted infantry like lootas or warrior blocks or eldar rangers or fire warriors etc... (sooo good on guardsmen blobs especially some heavy weapon squads as you instant death them)

I did another game as a gun boat with some success but due to bad positioning and fast skimmer running away moves, I didn't accomplish much with the psycannon but so far only one game. I shall be experimenting with them in a few more games.

Doubt I'll ever go 3x DK as I don't have the models for one and I really really like the reinforced aegis for 2. It's helped a lot and the psybolt dread is still worth while for the most part. It also tends to live longer since DK's seem to be far better fire magnets.

Grey Templar wrote:The Teliporter is a must. Incinerator is the best weapon option but the Psycannon has merits.

Fortunantly the DK's weapons are all snap on and you can swap out if you wish. The hands just slide into place and the weapons have the same deal.

My DKs have teleporter and heavy incinerator. This is the best trade-off you can get between effectiveness and cost.

korghan wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

korghan wrote:Once I expand to higher levels I'll likely use a libby with a staff and psyker powers from the rule book just to try them out. A libby with a staff is 185. His initiative is only 4 but I think the 2++ will save him in challenges. If I'm going to keep him with shooters I'll likely go with divination powers as even the primaris power looks great. If I'm going to assault with him I'll probably go with pyro.

I'll try him out and if it doesn't work out as I hoped I'll just switch him over to a GM.

I know these HQ's are pretty expensive but from what I've read (remember I'm still very new) these two HQ's seem to be force multipliers rather than just some tough guy.

In all honesty, with the 2+ and lack of AP2 the staff isnt as needed as it used to be when everything and its mother could negate a 2+. Now i can see him needing the 3++/5++ alot less. as for the powers hes level 2 mastery base, take 1 power of each. Tho for "shooty/assaulty" your better off just keeping him with termies, so theyl be doing both anyway.

The GM is a tad overated. It can give the shiny grenades which are nice, but mostly your only paying for grand strategy, his wargear options are too overpriced, and i think I6 i think base, the halberds useless. If your after the psychic Communion, it can be gotten cheaper on an inquisitor (hell for less than half the points you can get that, a cheap psycannon and servo skulls.)

At 1k i run a power armoured OM, and it works fine for me, even more so now with his daemonsword (though actually have no idea of the AP on it now ), but i throw in a libby with the termies when i boost it to 1.5k. And il be honest, libby and termies has been able to wreck face pretty consistently for me.

EDIT: Minor fix to wording

also, out of curiosity, which of the rulebooks power school work best for us now? or best to stick to codex powers?

What load out do you use for your libby? Does he do well in challenges?

Try this
Libby: Level 3, MC Warding stave, Brain Mines- 250 points. Your choice of codex or rulebook powers, could drop the Level 3 if you want for smaller games. As for codex powers, pretty much the usual from 5th (as in, not dark excommunication ) Quicksilver will let him hit fast, titan+hammerhand will let those hits be pretty crushing, Yeah hes W5, but with W2 and A2, hes kinda squishy in comparison to some we have, so i personally would prefer the rerolls of the MC. The brain mines (if they work) will reduce his opponent to a drooling idiot.

As some of you know I am a fan of henchman Psykers. They have improved in 6ed (full strength hits against vehicles, and out-of-line-of-sight-protection (see below)) and I thought it would be useful to people, and useful to me if it generates comments, to put my thoughts and what experience I have into this thread.

As an interesting (if flawed) comparison note that 3 Vindicators with dozer blades cost 360 pts, and 3 units of 8 psykers+2crusaders also cost 360 pts.

The Vindicator has BS4, armour of 13/11/10 and a range of 30" after moving, providing a S10 AP2 Large Blast with improved Ordnance vehicle penetration. If it uses smoke it can't fire. If it uses searchlights it would have to be within 24". Each one has a chance of 44% of a direct hit (a scatter of 4" is a direct hit).

Each Psyker group has BS3, protected by two 3++ saves and being able to avoid more than a single psyker being killed in any turn by hiding all but one psyker out of line of sight. They have a range of 42" after moving, providing a S10 AP1 Large Blast with a 50% chance of Exploding its target upon penetration unlike the Vindicator which only has a 33% chance of Exploding its target. 1 unit of psykers has a 37% chance of either getting a direct hit or a scatter of 2" of less, 2 units have a 61% chance, 3 units have a 75% chance (of at least one direct hit/scatter of 2" or less). Of course they're subject to Perils, SotW, Deny the Witch and Farseers (+ Hoods perhaps). The Psykers are scoring. Separate the 3 Psyker groups to encircle your opponent so any incoming assault unit can only threaten one psyker group at a time.

Let's say you're kiting around the enemy outside of small arms range. Your opponent is firing lascannons or equivalent at you. The 3 Vindicators could be taken out by 3 lascannons (or 3 meltas etc). The Psykers would take a minimum of 6 lascannon hits (or 6 meltas etc) (6 crusaders) just to only get to the stage where the Psykers become threatened. The Psykers can still operate extremely effectively after multiple casualties, in particular 6 psykers (S8, AP1) can kill T4 FNP multi-wound terminator-armour models on a 2+ To Wound.

The Vindicators would get a few more hits than the Psykers over the game IF they are in range every turn. However, the Psykers would be able to fire more often over the game due to their better range (fu bikers!), so I'd tentatively suggest it evens out and both Vindicators and Psykers would generate equivalent numbers of hits per game assuming all other factors are equal (such as your opponent not treating the Vindicators as a primary target!).

It's worth me expanding a bit on the out-of-line-of-sight tactic I mentioned above. Let's say you're advancing behind a wall of chimeras with searchlights (48" range of cruising snapfiring multilaser gives decent nightfighting searchlight range, and good transport to protect from SotW; however, henchmen in transports are highly vulnerable to Explode results in 6ed so probably best footslogging). You could only have 1 psyker in line of sight - this is sufficient to fire off the psyker blast but means your opponent can only kill 1 model in his shooting phase (unless he has barrage or outflankers). When the chimera dies you either hide all but one psyker behind terrain out of line of sight for the above effect, or put the crusaders out front - anyone who's tried to kill a Tau broadside unit with shield drones in 6ed knows the pain of seeing hard-won shots soaked up by invulnerability saves.

And all this is not to mention any upgrades you could take with your psykers. Adding DCAs to make assaulting them a painful ordeal, adding a psyocculum inquisitor, divination Coteaz, stormbolter/meltabomb acolytes, even jokaeros or servitors or bastions.

Final note: I use Mantic Ghouls as my psyker models as they have been "liberated" from the Black Ships and make for rather good dishevelled wretched creatures.

pretty good suggestion on psykers. I'll add the hiding part to the first page =)

I've had mixed results with them back in 5th, mainly I tend to roll against runes of warding something often so I've been more leery of depending too much on psykers. 1 perils essentially kills them all. I think the 3 squads of maxed out psykers work pretty decently with crusaders but I tend to get them a chimera or razorback and a bolter acolyte to hide with or in 6th edition, behind of.

As the last bolter acolyte is still scoring, it will at least waste one turn of the enemy shooting him to get rid of the unit for minim of points.

Alternatively, another successful use of psykers is in single man units. Just put 1 guy in with a bunch of other guys and you essentially have a 15 point large lasgun blast template or for 30 points upgrade to bolter templates on the move. If he perils or dies, it's not a big problem and minimal points investment for large pie plate spam radius vs hordes

sudojoe wrote:pretty good suggestion on psykers. I'll add the hiding part to the first page =)

I've had mixed results with them back in 5th, mainly I tend to roll against runes of warding something often so I've been more leery of depending too much on psykers. 1 perils essentially kills them all. I think the 3 squads of maxed out psykers work pretty decently with crusaders but I tend to get them a chimera or razorback and a bolter acolyte to hide with or in 6th edition, behind of.

As the last bolter acolyte is still scoring, it will at least waste one turn of the enemy shooting him to get rid of the unit for minim of points.

Alternatively, another successful use of psykers is in single man units. Just put 1 guy in with a bunch of other guys and you essentially have a 15 point large lasgun blast template or for 30 points upgrade to bolter templates on the move. If he perils or dies, it's not a big problem and minimal points investment for large pie plate spam radius vs hordes

Interesting point on the 2 man psykers, guess another point is going to be breaking out of the habit of thinking we need to max out on henchmen types.

Crusaders are ace in 6ed, I think I'll be using them a lot. Note, for instance, that 4 of the missions have many objectives and for a miniscule cost of 45 points we can get 3 crusaders offering a cheap and very durable objective holder (bretonian men-at-arms come with a halberd for power axe goodness!).

Thus for 90 pts you can secure 2 backfield objectives which would cost 2 times as much with a normal marine army.

edit/ I have tried out mixed "swiss army knife" henchmen units (eg. including 2 psykers etc) but I can't get them to work. Perhaps I've been doing it wrong.

edit/ I have tried out mixed "swiss army knife" henchmen units (eg. including 2 psykers etc) but I can't get them to work. Perhaps I've been doing it wrong

I tend to throw them in with some mostly shooty units and really just works on hordes. I got some orks and tyranid swarms in my local meta that the large pie plates do tend to help however, due to the FNP changes, I've been thinking of increasing to 4 man psykers for a str 6 that will kill all those FnP hormagaunts.

If all you have are mech or marines, then this wouldn't be effective at all of course..

tuiman wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Teliporter is a must. Incinerator is the best weapon option but the Psycannon has merits.

Fortunantly the DK's weapons are all snap on and you can swap out if you wish. The hands just slide into place and the weapons have the same deal.

Cool thanks for that, what about the sword though?

Not necessary since the model is already pretty expensive. S10 fists work fine...

Doesn't using the sword knock you back down to S6?

Although really, I imagine they will FAQ the S10 all the time fists.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Doesn't using the sword knock you back down to S6?

Although really, I imagine they will FAQ the S10 all the time fists.

AFAIK equipping the sword allows re-rolls. You don't swap out the doomfist to get the sword. Simply declare you're using the doomfist not the sword. You get strength 10 and your re-rolls. But it does make the already expensive DK pretty over the top pricey.

The sword says "A model equipped with a Greatsword may reroll X, Y, and Z", it never says you have to use the Sword to gain the benifits(unlike other weapons)

It's worded passivly, meaning it works all the time.

You still have one Doomfist. Neither the sword or Doom Fist are specilist weapons, so they give +1A for each other.


Therefore, you are Str10, have +1A, and get rerolls.