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Same here. Im not really a fan of them, but I dont hate. The neckbeard hatred really is a huge reason why less people play these games. Nobody wants to get whined at by some grognard because he didnt paint his mandollies like the 'cool kids' do.

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.

Eidolon wrote:

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.

And this is what I love about talking about a fictonal group, if you try to relate them to anything you get the "But they are not real" well, I know that, and I would hope at least 99.9% on here did too.
And "going out of the way to make fun of" sure, they might not make it a point, but in their own way they still do it. In the books, being moved by GW to do so.
But lets go back to the "sheep" thing I said. So all new chapters have to come from the Ultramarines...everyone has to follow their rulesfrom their book, and not step out of line...well that sounds a lot like the kid in high school who wanted to pick fights with anyone who didnt wear whatever trendy new jacket was in style, or watch the same sports as them. The Ultramarines are the 40K universe's blind followers who want to make everyone else do everything just like them. I am not saying there are not other chapters out there as bad "Oh look, we are all wearing the same leather jackets and ripped jeans to prove we are our own people who think and dress for ourselves" but at least those works fo ficiton are not trying to make every other chapter just like them. On tope of the GW rams Ultramarines down yourt throat like WWE does John Cena, or the local FM station does Nickleback...

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.

And this is what I love about talking about a fictonal group, if you try to relate them to anything you get the "But they are not real" well, I know that, and I would hope at least 99.9% on here did too.
And "going out of the way to make fun of" sure, they might not make it a point, but in their own way they still do it. In the books, being moved by GW to do so.
But lets go back to the "sheep" thing I said. So all new chapters have to come from the Ultramarines...everyone has to follow their rulesfrom their book, and not step out of line...well that sounds a lot like the kid in high school who wanted to pick fights with anyone who didnt wear whatever trendy new jacket was in style, or watch the same sports as them. The Ultramarines are the 40K universe's blind followers who want to make everyone else do everything just like them. I am not saying there are not other chapters out there as bad "Oh look, we are all wearing the same leather jackets and ripped jeans to prove we are our own people who think and dress for ourselves" but at least those works fo ficiton are not trying to make every other chapter just like them. On tope of the GW rams Ultramarines down yourt throat like WWE does John Cena, or the local FM station does Nickleback...

Quote spam is everywhere!

But I do have a point to make. The ultramarines aren't necessarily "ramming the codex arstartes down your throat", they're just overly strict about it. And before anyone complains that Captain Ventris wouldn't have been sent on a penance crusade just for joining the deathwatch if he was in another chapter, nearly all chapters do this kind of thing.
The ultramarines are just a stricter and more close-minded version of the other chapters. Not necessarily being dicks about it.

People dislike the Ultramarines because they, really are, mary sues.

Also, the idea that they are the best of any chapter, and any chapter can only be second to them, really gets people annoyed.

I don't really feel like writing a whole list here, but check out

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines

Yeah, see, when you link 4chan it becomes really hard to take your argument seriously.

Asherian Command wrote:Why I hate and Like the Ultramarines -
Codex Astartes - Pros- Very good for tactical commanders that like to follow by the book. Good source for tactics, should be used to encourage new tacticians to make better tactics.
Robute Gulliman was not the greatest tactician. Horus was.

Well many people like to argue that the Lion was better than even Horus, but I won't argue that Guilliman was better than Horus. Because he wasn't. He did however, write down his knowledge for others to read and gain some tactical perception from. Guilliman may not have been better than all his brothers- but he was a Primarch. He was better than most other Imperial strategists. He doesn't have to be the best. He just has to be good and take the time to write it down.

Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Company organizations like the current are completely inflexible to deal with threats on a wider scale. Reconquering worlds with 1 battle company is dumb because their reserve company has only one type of unit to support it. Over long term the reserve company serves no other purpose than to sit there and provide support thats it. What if this reserve force is depleted? Well guess what you have to wait for the 100 scouts to distrubite themselves to the rest of the chapter that is still suffering from its losses!

The Codex is supposed to be a frame work for developing tactics and strategies. It is not supposed to be the end all solution to everything. When everything is standardized, there are a lot of helpful things that go along with it. Tactics and strategy development is a heck of a lot easier too. But there are bad things that come with it. Sure, your enemy may know how your units are made up, but that is hardly a deciding factor. Think of today's military. Infantry Squads are made up of fire teams, with each fire team made up of the same thing. Each Squad is composed the same way. But that doesn't seem to hinder any major nations fighting ability.

Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.

This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?

Asherian Command wrote:Cato Scarius- Completely incompetent. Instead of sending in his scout squads to deal with the issues on black reach with you know stealth. INSTEAD! He charges in with a thunder hawk, he then gets wounded telion takes over and gets stuff done. Cato Scarius then charges into combat again against a Necron Lord, I don't really know why he couldn't of just shot the bloody thing, or you know thought about it, instead of revering the codex and use every inch of it like it is the way of life. Also because lets face his armor is from like what 20 dead space marines? That spells "I'm better than all of you, see all these awards, yeah i got them for being suicidally brave! You Know do you have any shiny badges! NO YOu DON'T!"

Sicarius is rash and foolhardy, but isn't that what you Ultramarine bashers like? That's one of the things you (maybe not you personally) listed as a good thing about the Space Wolves. Yet when the Ultras have a shade of the same thing, it's now a bad thing? Which is it?

Sicarius is the Captain of the Second. He does not have scouts. The scouts are in the 10th company and out of his authority. The Ultramarines are almost deficiently honor bound. That is, they value it to the point where it can be a bad thing. It is not honorable to simply light up the commander of an entire Tomb World with a plasma pistol when you can attempt a duel of sorts. That's how the Ultras are. One of their main characteristics. Space Marines live to fight and die. They all will die in battle. They want to make the most out of thier deaths. For him, that's being bested in single combat. He deserves all the medals he has, he earned them.

If you were at a Military ceremony and the guy next to you had the Congressional Medal of Honor draped around his neck, would you go off on him about showing off his medal? Probably not.

Asherian Command wrote:Calgar- You sir lead a frontal assualt against... a massive devouring horde and thought it was a good idea? Who taught you tactics Chapter Master Custard Cannae? Anyone that dives straight towards the enemy sounds like you read the tactics of the Codex Astartes horribly wrong. Unless it calls for something like this. "When faced with a Massive Alien swarm immediately go head first with no support."
Calgar you silly young lad, you cannot charge into a ork Wagh and hold a gate for 30 days. I'm pretty sure there was another company helping you, but you ignored them because they were under the Command of Captain Uriel Ventris.

Again with the honor thing. I think it's to the point where we cannot comprehend their thought processes in these situations. So I'll leave this one alone.

Asherian Command wrote:Good things:
Apart from being tactically incompetent and strategically slowed, Calgar is a good leader, he inspires his soldiers, and acts relatively nice to his allies. Though more often than not, everything has to be. By the book. Which is actually a good thing.
He is a talented warrior, and has two powerfists and ripped apart a daemon with his powered hands. Which is actually pretty cool, and of course he as the only one to remember who the grey knights where. Though i suspect that is because of Ward Armor.

Since when is by the book a bad thing? It's not. Not in the slightest. I'm being taught that now in ROTC. If there is a guideline, you better follow it. The Ultramarines have no more plot armor than any other marine chapter.

Asherian Command wrote:History:
Good: Very indepth and has alot of their victories including their 'losses'. They fought very hard against their enemies and they always somehow turn a loss to a victory.
Bad: So indepth that actually feels kinda stupid how they spend the entire book talking about them yet the Imperial Fists only have 3 paragraphs worth of info that talk about them.
They kinda are shown to be stupid and blind to betrayal and blind about the future. I am looking at you Titus and Leonidas, also you 1st company, calgar and well basically every single one of you.
Another urk is the fact that in one short story, how the 3rd company captain sarcraficed himself on a bridge. Well hhahaha! This proves them to be awesome! No it doesn't. Because i keeped thinking to myself, why did you keep all of your denotaters with one person? That is like the redshirt in Star Trek, you know he is going to die. So why bother? Why didn't you keep a back up? AND THEN BLOW UP A BRIDGE?

Also your thunderhawks arrived? Why didn't you bloody well use them then? "Brothers retreat to the thunderhawks!"
"But captain can't we just do a bombing run on the enemy position!"
"NO that is too logical I must stay behind because I forgot that I gave all the bomb denotaters to jimmy!"
"Sir, why didn't you keep one to yourself?"
"Quiet and leave this planet!"
"........"
Also the first company and the fifth and sixth companies getting owned by an entire tyranid hive fleet. La de dum. Who though this was a good idea? And why not act smart and use hit and run tactics?Also what irks me is that they spent so much time on the 'main characters' instead of the first company. All we know is that the 1st company died and 5 terminators were stacked against each other like tipped over cows.

Everything isn't so black and white. You can't just read things to try to find flaws. You have to read them for what they are on the outside, then look again to find its real meaning. The part about the bridge. It's ironic because you have been labelling following a plan as bad thing, yet when they wing it, it is suddenly even worse. Fairness is not always equal. We don't have the same amount of information on the Imperial Fists as we do the Ultramarines. It's like in the Imperial Guard codex. There is a couple short paragraphs on the Mordian Iron Guard, but the whole book is about Cadians. Why? There is more of a fan base. There is more information.

Your arguements at this point are becoming less and less rational.

Asherian Command wrote:Homeworld: Good- Is awesome compared to the rest of the imperium
Bad: Really can't think of any considering the fact this is probably the coolest part of the chapter.

Preheresy:
There isn't that much to see here. So move along.
Heresy:
My biggest irk with this chapter is that they were oh so conveniently the galactic southeast. Including all 210,000 of them.
The next big one is that they were caught off guard. WEll actually for the first time. By the wordbearers.

"Oh hey scary brothers with human corpses strewn over their ships. Hows it going?"
"DIE!!!!!"
"Wait I thought we were friends?"
"Your a ##$!#$!!#$ !$#!@$!@ @#$!@&^&$@#% !"
" But Logar!"
"I am a servant of the chaos gods."

Did you even read Know No Fear? It sounds like you did, but you read in a context in a way that made it impossible to discern real information. You can't always be so subjective.

They were NOT 'conveniently over there'. Horus put them there. Why? For multiple reasons. One it makes it easier for him to attack Terra. Two because the idea of Brother attacking Brother is a good plot device. Sure it was everywhere in the series, but nowhere like between the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. It is logical and it flows for the Heresy. If they were on Terra, you would hate them for being there and having an important role. They can't win with you.

Asherian Command wrote:This is the only time I have ever actually cheered for Chaos. Robute was a jerk to his fellow primarchs. Some of the reasons why they betrayed the Imperium in the first place was because Robute decided to be a jerk to everyone

Robute Gulliman was a Douchecanoe to the following primarchs.....
Alpharius
Horus
Sanginius
Corax
Rogal Dorn
Jaghati Khan
Leman Russ
Lion El'Johnson
Magnus
Night Haunter
Petraubo
Ferrus Manus
Angron
-evidence Spiritual Liege and also the fact he points to how many successful campagins he has had. Also Horus even stated he didn't have too much ambition.
The Ultramarines were actually full of themselves before and after the heresy. Which reminds me of actual Rome. Which they Actually do achieve and I give the writers credit for writing it that way.

Again with the Subjectivity. Where is your evidence? What do you cite for sources of this? Because I know that this is untrue. They all do not hate Guilliman. In fact, non of the Primarchs really HATE another, with the exception of course of some like Mortarion and Curze. Simply throwing out names and information without evidence to back it up is pretty unfair. Pissed them off? Maybe every now and then. But if you have siblings, you will know all too well that while they can piss you off pretty badly sometimes, you don't necessarily hate them because of it. Same here. It looks like they dislike him every now and then, but you are warping that into simply hating him all the time. And the list of those Primarchs that do feel that way is not as comprehensive as the one above.

EDIT: I have never read Spiritual Leige, but I feel that my arguement of hatred vs sibling rivalry/annoyance still applies. Even so, I doubt it goes through and names all those Primarchs and at the same time says that they all hate Guilliman.

Asherian Command wrote:Anyway that is my rant. I won't respond because lets face it my opinion is my opinion.(and my observations)

You put it on the internet, so I am free to respond

I understand it's your opinion, but discussion of opinions is the best way to find compromise and discern a merited arguement from simple bashing.

'Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean it's right'-- My Dad

Eidolon wrote:Yeah, see, when you link 4chan it becomes really hard to take your argument seriously.

Just what I was thinking.

I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...

HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!

(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)

I kind of always liked the Ultramarines. They had a real cool diorama in Rogue Trader, fighting orks on cat walks and a UM Dread busting through the wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...

HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!

(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)

And no, its fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...sheesh wheres Yoda when you need him

UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...

HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!

(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)

Has anyone actually met an ultramarines fanboy? Every single ultramarines players I know thinks they are cool, but doesnt really care to tell you about if they think ultramarines are cooler than your army. This seems like one of those phantoms that doesnt actually exist, except in the minds of people who spend too much time on the internet.

Eidolon wrote:

UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...

HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!

(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)

Has anyone actually met an ultramarines fanboy? Every single ultramarines players I know thinks they are cool, but doesnt really care to tell you about if they think ultramarines are cooler than your army. This seems like one of those phantoms that doesnt actually exist, except in the minds of people who spend too much time on the internet.

I have found that it happens like this:
Player A has Space Wolves (or any other army)
Player B has Ultramarines

Players A and B discuss the fluff and its major points, including armies and such. The discussion of Ultramarines begins with Player A stating they hate them. Now Player B goes to their defense (it's his army after all). Player A calls Player B a 'fanboy' for defending the Ultras.

Same on here. If someone responds to posts defending a viewpoint, they are labelled as being fanboys of that view.

Eidolon wrote:Yeah, see, when you link 4chan it becomes really hard to take your argument seriously.

Umm, I really wasn't trying to start an argument, I was just showing the op why some people hate the ultramarines. I don't really feel like arguing with strangers about a fantasy universe

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

Oh hey, I wonder what the original first company must think about this, before they got devoured and the "new" veterans realized they had to forcefully think and wake up about the fact that their book doesn't have the tactics for everything. To the point where they had to develop non-standard tactics against a foe that constantly learned.

LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.

Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.

I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.


The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.

Somebody had to be the best. Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.

There is no such thing as Ultramarines fanboys, lol. Ultramarines fans are the guys saying "I don't get why all these goobers hate the Ultramarines so much", and not sitting around saying "Ultramarinez iz bestest! Ur guyz suxxor!"

Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.

Sadly, this isn't what the Codex is about. That's just how Graham McNeill wrote it in his terrible Ultramarines novels, lol. The original, and persisting, descriptions of the Codex treat it like this amazing tome of knowledge and examples that great commanders can use to make educated decisions on the fly to react to the battlefield and proactively stay ahead of their opponents. The idea that someone could just "read the Codex" and predict what his opponent was going to do is ludicrous, because there are supposed to be hundreds of pages and options for any given situation. To out think someone who had mastered the Codex, you'd have to have... mastered the Codex.

Welcome to real life. How do you think real world generals learn how to be generals? And how do you think they learn to be better generals? They win battles by using the same tactics and strategy everyone knows, they just use them more innovatively, or at the right time. There's not ever going to be an "If A, Then B" answer to any battle, because there are thousands of variables to any battle (troops, environment, terrain, time, weather, weaponry, reserves, supplies, rest... etc).

Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all. Sadly, the Black Library lets McNeill continue to publish garbage that makes the Ultramarines look like morons, and for players to wonder how they could be "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they're such incredible morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bibblles wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.

Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.

Usually it's the "spiritual liege" part, which people don't realize only refers to Ultramarines successors. Which makes complete sense the second you take a minute to think about it. If you're a 2nd Founding Successor, then your original Marines were Ultramarines, and the XIII Legion is still your Legion, and there'd be a definite tie to the Ultramarines. And if you're from a later founding, then you have no primarch, but the closest thing you have is Guilliman since you're still descended from him, and if you're going to look at the past for achievements to be proud of or a model to use as an ideal to imitate, you're probably going to take your genetic predecessors, the Ultramarines. Considering that more than 60% of existing Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, this is a lot of chapters.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.

Mat Ward however did throw a big heaping pile of kindling on the simmering flames.

Somebody had to be the best.

I see no reason for this statement to be true. What other race has a sub-faction specifically labelled as "the best"? None that I can think of. There is no "best" Imperial Guard, there is no "best" Ork Clan, there is no "best" Chaos god, there is no "best" Chaos Legion, there is no "best" Craftworld, etc.

Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.

That stuff is all fine, the problem is when they are portrayed as "better" just because. How is an Ultramarine a superior Space Marine to an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand or a Salamander or a Space Wolf or a Blood Angel? I can't thin of anything in particular, and I see no reason why they *had* to be described that way.

Anything that comes off saying "They're the best" is likely to be disliked becomes it comes off as arrogance on the part of the faction in question and crony-fanboy-ish writing on the part of the author, whether it is or not that is what the perception will be. If one group is clearly "the best", well, that diminishes everyone else doesn't it?

Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all.

That's the problem. If the fluff is bad people won't like the faction. Simple as that. Huge amounts of Ultramarines fluff, both codex and BL, is bad. It's not unique to the Ultramarines, nor are they the only faction that gets hate because of it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.


The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.

Somebody had to be the best. Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.

There is no such thing as Ultramarines fanboys, lol. Ultramarines fans are the guys saying "I don't get why all these goobers hate the Ultramarines so much", and not sitting around saying "Ultramarinez iz bestest! Ur guyz suxxor!"

Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.

Sadly, this isn't what the Codex is about. That's just how Graham McNeill wrote it in his terrible Ultramarines novels, lol. The original, and persisting, descriptions of the Codex treat it like this amazing tome of knowledge and examples that great commanders can use to make educated decisions on the fly to react to the battlefield and proactively stay ahead of their opponents. The idea that someone could just "read the Codex" and predict what his opponent was going to do is ludicrous, because there are supposed to be hundreds of pages and options for any given situation. To out think someone who had mastered the Codex, you'd have to have... mastered the Codex.

Welcome to real life. How do you think real world generals learn how to be generals? And how do you think they learn to be better generals? They win battles by using the same tactics and strategy everyone knows, they just use them more innovatively, or at the right time. There's not ever going to be an "If A, Then B" answer to any battle, because there are thousands of variables to any battle (troops, environment, terrain, time, weather, weaponry, reserves, supplies, rest... etc).

Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all. Sadly, the Black Library lets McNeill continue to publish garbage that makes the Ultramarines look like morons, and for players to wonder how they could be "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they're such incredible morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bibblles wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.

Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.

Usually it's the "spiritual liege" part, which people don't realize only refers to Ultramarines successors. Which makes complete sense the second you take a minute to think about it. If you're a 2nd Founding Successor, then your original Marines were Ultramarines, and the XIII Legion is still your Legion, and there'd be a definite tie to the Ultramarines. And if you're from a later founding, then you have no primarch, but the closest thing you have is Guilliman since you're still descended from him, and if you're going to look at the past for achievements to be proud of or a model to use as an ideal to imitate, you're probably going to take your genetic predecessors, the Ultramarines. Considering that more than 60% of existing Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, this is a lot of chapters.

In agreement with this:
Basically, the codex arsartes is a huge book on tactical philosophy. Guillimann wrote it with the intention that people use it as a learning experince.

The book basically goes like this:

Scenario 1.
In M29, Captain ____ used "Tactic A" in order to combat the aforementioned scenario.
Que tactical debate on possibilities, which tactics could have been more/less effective, and how this tactic turned out.

Scenario 2

In M30, Captain ____ used "Tactic B"... ...

Ignatius wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.

This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?

Cobra's guns fired red, GI Joe Blue. Gnome and Juliet, red and blue...then there is Red Vs Blue. Most cartoons have some sort of Blue is Good, Red is Bad thing going...

And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.

Ignatius wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Why I hate and Like the Ultramarines -
Codex Astartes - Pros- Very good for tactical commanders that like to follow by the book. Good source for tactics, should be used to encourage new tacticians to make better tactics.
Robute Gulliman was not the greatest tactician. Horus was.

Well many people like to argue that the Lion was better than even Horus, but I won't argue that Guilliman was better than Horus. Because he wasn't. He did however, write down his knowledge for others to read and gain some tactical perception from. Guilliman may not have been better than all his brothers- but he was a Primarch. He was better than most other Imperial strategists. He doesn't have to be the best. He just has to be good and take the time to write it down.

Agreed. But to me the book squeaks out Ultramarines DA BEST, I even facepalmed when I read when everyone wants to be an Ultramarine.... That part offended me.

Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Company organizations like the current are completely inflexible to deal with threats on a wider scale. Reconquering worlds with 1 battle company is dumb because their reserve company has only one type of unit to support it. Over long term the reserve company serves no other purpose than to sit there and provide support thats it. What if this reserve force is depleted? Well guess what you have to wait for the 100 scouts to distribute themselves to the rest of the chapter that is still suffering from its losses!

The Codex is supposed to be a frame work for developing tactics and strategies. It is not supposed to be the end all solution to everything. When everything is standardized, there are a lot of helpful things that go along with it. Tactics and strategy development is a heck of a lot easier too. But there are bad things that come with it. Sure, your enemy may know how your units are made up, but that is hardly a deciding factor. Think of today's military. Infantry Squads are made up of fire teams, with each fire team made up of the same thing. Each Squad is composed the same way. But that doesn't seem to hinder any major nations fighting ability.

And yet chapters can be punished for not following oh the holy Codex because of one minor deviation (Badab War)
The Framework? Some chapters uphold everything in the codex as everything in life. I.E Red Scorpions and the Ultramarine Successors (Also the Storm Wardens)
I understand that infantry squads are fire teams that makes sense. But splitting them up also helps too. But having 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads and 2 assualt squads is kinda of a bad idea, It is easer to split it up into even groups. Like 3 tactical squads 3 devastator squads 3 assualt squads and 1 veteran squad (Of course this could be GW trying to make it legal for force organization.)
PLus it would be easier to go into an Imperial Tactics group that is constantly added with updated info. I am saying that the codex is too revered and sacred that the Ultramarines too heavily rely on it. Instead of Improv or using new tactics that have been simulated to perfection then building off from that.

Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.

This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?

I have never watched GI Joe.
But In every show I have seen blue side is usually good and red side is evil because it is red.
(StarWars)

Asherian Command wrote:Cato Scarius- Completely incompetent. Instead of sending in his scout squads to deal with the issues on black reach with you know stealth. INSTEAD! He charges in with a thunder hawk, he then gets wounded telion takes over and gets stuff done. Cato Scarius then charges into combat again against a Necron Lord, I don't really know why he couldn't of just shot the bloody thing, or you know thought about it, instead of revering the codex and use every inch of it like it is the way of life. Also because lets face his armor is from like what 20 dead space marines? That spells "I'm better than all of you, see all these awards, yeah i got them for being suicidally brave! You Know do you have any shiny badges! NO YOu DON'T!"

Sicarius is rash and foolhardy, but isn't that what you Ultramarine bashers like? That's one of the things you (maybe not you personally) listed as a good thing about the Space Wolves. Yet when the Ultras have a shade of the same thing, it's now a bad thing? Which is it?

Sicarius is the Captain of the Second. He does not have scouts. The scouts are in the 10th company and out of his authority. The Ultramarines are almost deficiently honor bound. That is, they value it to the point where it can be a bad thing. It is not honorable to simply light up the commander of an entire Tomb World with a plasma pistol when you can attempt a duel of sorts. That's how the Ultras are. One of their main characteristics. Space Marines live to fight and die. They all will die in battle. They want to make the most out of thier deaths. For him, that's being bested in single combat. He deserves all the medals he has, he earned them.

If you were at a Military ceremony and the guy next to you had the Congressional Medal of Honor draped around his neck, would you go off on him about showing off his medal? Probably not.

The problem is that he constantly throws himself into trouble, he doesn't actually win combat by himself. His company is fine by himself. Kinda of Like how Ender in Ender's Game allowed his toons to become self sufficient even without a commander.I like that part. But lets face it. That is what bugs me, he isn't needed, his company deserves its place.
The chapter only shows ranks higher the captain. Apart from the two lower rank guys. (But who would count them, as they are so insignificant to the ultramarines)

At black reach he did have scouts. All scouts are attached to companies for training. He is the Captain of the Second or Master of the Watch, he over rules the Captain of Recruits as he is not present. So Scarius is the leader of the ultramarines present. They were in his authority. They are not the Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines are known for being all-rounders and for following the codex, in every campaign where scouts are involved they are put under the command of the Chapter's Highest Rank Present.

Asherian Command wrote:Calgar- You sir lead a frontal assualt against... a massive devouring horde and thought it was a good idea? Who taught you tactics Chapter Master Custard Cannae? Anyone that dives straight towards the enemy sounds like you read the tactics of the Codex Astartes horribly wrong. Unless it calls for something like this. "When faced with a Massive Alien swarm immediately go head first with no support."
Calgar you silly young lad, you cannot charge into a ork Wagh and hold a gate for 30 days. I'm pretty sure there was another company helping you, but you ignored them because they were under the Command of Captain Uriel Ventris.

Again with the honor thing. I think it's to the point where we cannot comprehend their thought processes in these situations. So I'll leave this one alone.

There is no honor for losing all of your honor guard to the Tyranid swarm along with the Standard Bearer and 1/3 of your chapter.
There is no honor in stupidity. The Imperium rewards heroism and for being smart about being heroic. But Calgar rushed in. There is no honor in that.

Asherian Command wrote:Good things:
Apart from being tactically incompetent and strategically slowed, Calgar is a good leader, he inspires his soldiers, and acts relatively nice to his allies. Though more often than not, everything has to be. By the book. Which is actually a good thing.
He is a talented warrior, and has two powerfists and ripped apart a daemon with his powered hands. Which is actually pretty cool, and of course he as the only one to remember who the grey knights where. Though i suspect that is because of Ward Armor.

Since when is by the book a bad thing? It's not. Not in the slightest. I'm being taught that now in ROTC. If there is a guideline, you better follow it. The Ultramarines have no more plot armor than any other marine chapter.

Apparently you didn't read that was actually A GOOD THING i'll highlight for you

Asherian Command wrote:History:
Good: Very indepth and has alot of their victories including their 'losses'. They fought very hard against their enemies and they always somehow turn a loss to a victory.
Bad: So indepth that actually feels kinda stupid how they spend the entire book talking about them yet the Imperial Fists only have 3 paragraphs worth of info that talk about them.
They kinda are shown to be stupid and blind to betrayal and blind about the future. I am looking at you Titus and Leonidas, also you 1st company, calgar and well basically every single one of you.
Another urk is the fact that in one short story, how the 3rd company captain sarcraficed himself on a bridge. Well hhahaha! This proves them to be awesome! No it doesn't. Because i keeped thinking to myself, why did you keep all of your denotaters with one person? That is like the redshirt in Star Trek, you know he is going to die. So why bother? Why didn't you keep a back up? AND THEN BLOW UP A BRIDGE?

Also your thunderhawks arrived? Why didn't you bloody well use them then? "Brothers retreat to the thunderhawks!"
"But captain can't we just do a bombing run on the enemy position!"
"NO that is too logical I must stay behind because I forgot that I gave all the bomb denotaters to jimmy!"
"Sir, why didn't you keep one to yourself?"
"Quiet and leave this planet!"
"........"
Also the first company and the fifth and sixth companies getting owned by an entire tyranid hive fleet. La de dum. Who though this was a good idea? And why not act smart and use hit and run tactics?Also what irks me is that they spent so much time on the 'main characters' instead of the first company. All we know is that the 1st company died and 5 terminators were stacked against each other like tipped over cows.

Everything isn't so black and white. You can't just read things to try to find flaws. You have to read them for what they are on the outside, then look again to find its real meaning. The part about the bridge. It's ironic because you have been labelling following a plan as bad thing, yet when they wing it, it is suddenly even worse. Fairness is not always equal. We don't have the same amount of information on the Imperial Fists as we do the Ultramarines. It's like in the Imperial Guard codex. There is a couple short paragraphs on the Mordian Iron Guard, but the whole book is about Cadians. Why? There is more of a fan base. There is more information.

I don't read things to find flaws. The flaws found me. When they wing it is even worse because now they are hypocrites! I am fine with their by the book and go by the plan but you can't rely on just one codex written 10,000 years ago to help. You need to formulate you need to actually plan for any type of contingency.
Plus the Imperial Fist issue is so minor. But the Fists need some facetime. They are the son's of dorn. They fought at the Imperial Palace they deserve a pizza or something.

Your arguements at this point are becoming less and less rational.

Less Rational? Hmm. Sounds more Rational overtime if you put it together

Asherian Command wrote:Homeworld: Good- Is awesome compared to the rest of the imperium
Bad: Really can't think of any considering the fact this is probably the coolest part of the chapter.

Preheresy:
There isn't that much to see here. So move along.
Heresy:
My biggest irk with this chapter is that they were oh so conveniently the galactic southeast. Including all 210,000 of them.
The next big one is that they were caught off guard. WEll actually for the first time. By the wordbearers.

"Oh hey scary brothers with human corpses strewn over their ships. Hows it going?"
"DIE!!!!!"
"Wait I thought we were friends?"
"Your a ##$!#$!!#$ !$#!@$!@ @#$!@&^&$@#% !"
" But Logar!"
"I am a servant of the chaos gods."

Did you even read Know No Fear? It sounds like you did, but you read in a context in a way that made it impossible to discern real information. You can't always be so subjective.

They were NOT 'conveniently over there'. Horus put them there. Why? For multiple reasons. One it makes it easier for him to attack Terra. Two because the idea of Brother attacking Brother is a good plot device. Sure it was everywhere in the series, but nowhere like between the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. It is logical and it flows for the Heresy. If they were on Terra, you would hate them for being there and having an important role. They can't win with you.

No I have not actually read "Know No Fear". I read Collected visions and actually very few of the horus heresy books.
Also I am talking fluffy not what sells well
Actually no I wouldn't hate them. I would actually Like them. Another main reason I hate/dislike them is because they weren't at Terra. The DA and the Space Wolves beat them. I know they were far away but at least your fastest ships could of arrived first.
for being such a talented tactician Gulliman really didn't think of trying to send half his fleet to terra. As the Word Bearers force was significantly smaller than the Ultramarine's Legion.
This was half of the Word Bearers. Not all of them.

Asherian Command wrote:This is the only time I have ever actually cheered for Chaos. Robute was a jerk to his fellow primarchs. Some of the reasons why they betrayed the Imperium in the first place was because Robute decided to be a jerk to everyone

Robute Gulliman was a Douchecanoe to the following primarchs.....
Alpharius
Horus
Sanginius
Corax
Rogal Dorn
Jaghati Khan
Leman Russ
Lion El'Johnson
Magnus
Night Haunter
Petraubo
Ferrus Manus
Angron
-evidence Spiritual Liege and also the fact he points to how many successful campagins he has had. Also Horus even stated he didn't have too much ambition.
The Ultramarines were actually full of themselves before and after the heresy. Which reminds me of actual Rome. Which they Actually do achieve and I give the writers credit for writing it that way.

Again with the Subjectivity. Where is your evidence? What do you cite for sources of this? Because I know that this is untrue. They all do not hate Guilliman. In fact, non of the Primarchs really HATE another, with the exception of course of some like Mortarion and Curze. Simply throwing out names and information without evidence to back it up is pretty unfair. Pissed them off? Maybe every now and then. But if you have siblings, you will know all too well that while they can piss you off pretty badly sometimes, you don't necessarily hate them because of it. Same here. It looks like they dislike him every now and then, but you are warping that into simply hating him all the time. And the list of those Primarchs that do feel that way is not as comprehensive as the one above.

EDIT: I have never read Spiritual Leige, but I feel that my arguement of hatred vs sibling rivalry/annoyance still applies. Even so, I doubt it goes through and names all those Primarchs and at the same time says that they all hate Guilliman.

Gulliman and Rogal dorn had a bit of a fight between each other. One disagreed with another about tactics so they had a friendly kind of rivilary.
Gulliman was all about honor, he did not seen any honor in the Alpha Legion, or The Raven Guard, or the World Eaters, Or the Thousand Sons, or the Night Lords.
As such he hated them and they hated him. Especially Alpharius as he noticed that Gulliman kept pointing at his victories. Though Alpharius had won a battle that would of take the ultramarines a year to do.
Plus the Term Siblings is a matter of debate, it is more of a Hierarchy Political family, than an actual 'family'.
I mean Dislike is probably a more accurate term than Hate though. Probably wanting to murder him sometimes like a politician that gets beaten by some third party guy. Of course he is going to think of murder.

Asherian Command wrote:Anyway that is my rant. I won't respond because lets face it my opinion is my opinion.(and my observations)

You put it on the internet, so I am free to respond

I understand it's your opinion, but discussion of opinions is the best way to find compromise and discern a merited arguement from simple bashing.

'Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean it's right'-- My Dad

I Know, I just had work :(
My Opinion is my opinion and its based on assumptions and some facts,
Not Every thing i say is accurate, it is only my opinion on the matter, Not the truth, nor is it completely false.

Asherian Command wrote:Rabble rabble rabble

Ignatius wrote:Counter rabble counter rabble

You raise excellent points, and prove me wrong a couple times (Sicarius had scouts at Black Reach for example) but I think a lot of this comes down to two different but equally viable opinions. Too bad everyone has one of those

RicBlasko wrote:And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.

I've spoken to many a soldier. I understand that many things in ROTC are worthless. I could have told you that even without talking to soldiers who have been there and done that

Regardless, I still believe that a comparison to the codex is appropriate for the military. Sure, you have to improvise as you go but there is still a solid framework that decisions are built around. That's the codex. You have to have knowledge of something in order to improvise on it.

O1 map joke. Classic. There is a joke that goes something along the lines of "The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass."

RicBlasko wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.

This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?

Cobra's guns fired red, GI Joe Blue. Gnome and Juliet, red and blue...then there is Red Vs Blue. Most cartoons have some sort of Blue is Good, Red is Bad thing going...

And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.

One name, Papa Smurf.....

I am just really hoping that the rumors about the Ultramarines and Tau end up eventually becoming true. Now, before you bitch and moan about it, here me out.

First off, it is the Ultramarines that were listed in the rumor. The good ol' boys in blue. The ones who can do no harm. Heros of the Imperium that all other armies strive to be on par with. All of a sudden, they discover that the Emperor wanted them to protect the Tau, a Xenos race. The Imperium, on the other hand, wants to rid the galaxy of all Xenos, eventually, and thus are very bitchy about that sort of thing. (even though, I am sure, that the Imperium and the Tau could probably get along logistically.)

So you pretty much have the flawless chapter, put into a situation where they have to choose between their duty to the Imperium, and the Lords of Terra, and the Emperor himself. Suddenly, they go from boring as feth, flavorless marines, to a Chapter with a VERY big issue. How carefully do they tread this line?

jadebullet wrote:I am just really hoping that the rumors about the Ultramarines and Tau end up eventually becoming true. Now, before you bitch and moan about it, here me out.

First off, it is the Ultramarines that were listed in the rumor. The good ol' boys in blue. The ones who can do no harm. Heros of the Imperium that all other armies strive to be on par with. All of a sudden, they discover that the Emperor wanted them to protect the Tau, a Xenos race. The Imperium, on the other hand, wants to rid the galaxy of all Xenos, eventually, and thus are very bitchy about that sort of thing. (even though, I am sure, that the Imperium and the Tau could probably get along logistically.)

So you pretty much have the flawless chapter, put into a situation where they have to choose between their duty to the Imperium, and the Lords of Terra, and the Emperor himself. Suddenly, they go from boring as feth, flavorless marines, to a Chapter with a VERY big issue. How carefully do they tread this line?

You overestimate the intelligence of GW and their attention to detail. If Ultramarines are Tau Protectors, they'll end up like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves; they obviously violate the Imperium's laws, but apparently no one cares.

I'm not gonna quote you vaktathi because I'm on a phone and it's annoying. But honestly your argument just sounds like sour grapes. GW named the Ultramarines "the greatest". That's really where it starts and stops. Why complain about it? It just is what it is, and it doesn't make any other chapter suck by comparison. The Ultramarines aren't individually better, but the Chapter as a whole has been more successful, and more prolific. Some of it is from their unique position following the Heresy and Guilliman's superior administrative and logistical infrastructure compared to the other Legions.

And I'd like you to point out what Mat Ward added. I bet the majority of what you think predates Ward. Ward's a scapegoat.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't like Ultramarines much simply because of the way they're portrayed in the Codex (The ideal, everyone strives to be like them. IIRC there's even a line that says something along the lines of "there are divergent chapters and even though they can never be Ultramarines, they still strive to the same ideals), and I feel that the way the Space Marine Codex is written sort of downplays or even belittles other chapters.

With that said, I don't really give a crap and I couldn't possibly care less if someone really loves Ultramarines. Go nuts. Paint an entire chapter's worth of minis in Ultramarine colours, for all I care. I personally don't like them, but I don't care if you (general "you", not specifically you) do.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.

Did you actually read Nightbringer? Ventris didn't release the shard, Kasimir de Valtos and his Dark Eldar compadres did.

I wholeheartedly support my Ultras. They have been with me since the beginning (early 2nd edition, for me), and I can't see how people rag on them so much with armies like the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and now the Grey Knights out there.

People call their color scheme drab and dumb because it's just blue, yet all the other mainstream chapters are a single color (aside from oddballs like Death Company, etc).

And if Ultras are "the stupid posterboy chapter" because of the bad OTT writing lately, then explain this:

I think it's safe to say that much of Ward's writing is questionable; I think the issue people take is that while the Grey Knights are OTT, and the Blood Angel/Necron team up is silly, it's... self-contained. It doesn't occur instead of or at the expense of others, where as Codex: Space Marines focuses almost solely on the Ultramarines, at the expense of the other Founding Loyalists (at least the ones who don't get their own codecies). I know that's the issue I take with it. The vanilla Marine Codex is basically the Ultramarine Codex with "honorable mentions" given to the other chapters. It's a very jarring change in tone from previous Codecies where (generally) no one chapter was held so highly above the others.